We don't like to discuss these issues with you, because we feel they shouldn't be issues. We (I) feel questioning your religion is very appropriate, due to the way you cast doubt on the Word of God. Why shouldn't we ?
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Is Abortion Murder?
- Thread starter C.S. Murphy
- Start date
HankD opinions of the church aren't always right. We have slavery as well as the murder of witches which had the support of the church at one time.
Can you tell me right now if killing witches was the right thing to do? If you answer no, then you are going against what the Bible clearly said was the right thing to do to witches. If you say yes, then you are in disagreement with modern church opinion on not killing witches. So what is your answer?
A liberal will have no problem answering this question. Will you?
I have never cast doubt on the Word of God, I have cast doubt on certain parts of the Bible. The Word of God is the "Truth" contained in the Bible. I have no problem with the Truths in the Bible, it is everything else that may or may not be Truth I have a problem with.
But then, God never claim to have written the Bible, he claimed to have inspired the Bible. If you were a perfect painter and inspired someone to paint a picture, there could be mistakes in the picture since you didn't paint it, you only inspired the artist. Big difference!
Could someone point out where God said that the Bible was infallible? I believe it is only God that is infallible, not the Bible.
[ August 19, 2002, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
The Bible claims to be from God about 1750 times. It also tells us God can't lie. (Hebrews 6:18), it tells us it is a complete book for entire Christian life.(Matthew 4:4...I know some modern versions take out the last part of that verse, but some leave it in. It's a very important verse.) Also, the warnings in different places to not add, or take away from it, should tell you that it is a complete work. It also tells us that in the last days, folks like you will try to infiltrate our churches, and water down the doctrine, and cast doubt onto his word. It's all in there.
[ August 19, 2002, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]
[ August 19, 2002, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]
latterrain77
New Member
Hi post-it. Yes, abortion is murder. Have you ever placed your hands on the belly of a pregnant woman? Early in the pregnancy, you can feel the child “moving around.” Later on, you can feel the child moving STRONGLY – and you can even SEE the child moving around by looking at the pregnant mom’s belly! NON-life does not move like this! If you disagree, please tell me "what" is moving around in the pregnant mom's belly.
The Bible is clear that the taking of LIFE is murder (Exo. 20: 13, Gen. 9: 6). Life begins at conception. A newly “fertilized” egg contains an overwhelming amount of human genetic code. A Japanese zygote, implanted in a Norwegian woman, will always be "Japanese" because his/her identity is already based upon his/her genetic code (not that of the Norwegian mother).
The physical “size” of a person does not determine it’s personhood. Is a 6 ft tall grown man any MORE of a person than a 2 ft tall toddler? Of course not! Whatever is “human” must be human from the beginning, and physical size is meaningless. The word “fetus” is every bit descriptive of a human being, as are the words “infant,” or “toddler” or “adoloscent” or "adult."
Life begins at the moment of conception. Otherwise, it could never "BECOME" the life that even abortionists recognize it to be at some point in time in it's development. LIFE cannot develop from NON-Life.
The Bible flatly states that what is “in” the womb, is a person (life), and it is a life created there by GOD himself - in the womb (Job 31: 15). Furthermore, Job referred to himself as a PERSON (“I”) while he was in his mother’s womb (Job 3:11).
David unambiguously stated that he was a PERSON (“me”) while in his mother’s womb (Psalm 139: 13). PERSONHOOD begins in the womb, and a mother is WITH CHILD as that child resides in her womb (Ecc. 11: 5). This verse plainly states that human bones grow IN the womb (and they continue to grow right past young adulthood when those bones finally stop growing). Can a “Non-Life” have bones? Of course NOT! Only LIFE can have things like bones. By saying otherwise, is to point your middle finger at Ecc. 11: 5 (and the other verses too).
John the Baptist was plainly a PERSON - ALIVE and even having emotional understanding - while still in his mother’s womb (Luke 1: 41, 44). His mother, Elisabeth, called him “babe” while he was in the womb (Luke 1: 44). The angel declared Mary to be “with child” at the moment of her conception. While I acknowledge the Virgin Birth was unique, it nevertheless further illustrates the principle of “life at conception” (Matt. 1: 18, 1: 23).
What more Biblical evidence do you need? Freedom of choice? Yes! I believe in “choice.” I choose LIFE. Because any other choice is murder!
latterrain77
The Bible is clear that the taking of LIFE is murder (Exo. 20: 13, Gen. 9: 6). Life begins at conception. A newly “fertilized” egg contains an overwhelming amount of human genetic code. A Japanese zygote, implanted in a Norwegian woman, will always be "Japanese" because his/her identity is already based upon his/her genetic code (not that of the Norwegian mother).
The physical “size” of a person does not determine it’s personhood. Is a 6 ft tall grown man any MORE of a person than a 2 ft tall toddler? Of course not! Whatever is “human” must be human from the beginning, and physical size is meaningless. The word “fetus” is every bit descriptive of a human being, as are the words “infant,” or “toddler” or “adoloscent” or "adult."
Life begins at the moment of conception. Otherwise, it could never "BECOME" the life that even abortionists recognize it to be at some point in time in it's development. LIFE cannot develop from NON-Life.
The Bible flatly states that what is “in” the womb, is a person (life), and it is a life created there by GOD himself - in the womb (Job 31: 15). Furthermore, Job referred to himself as a PERSON (“I”) while he was in his mother’s womb (Job 3:11).
David unambiguously stated that he was a PERSON (“me”) while in his mother’s womb (Psalm 139: 13). PERSONHOOD begins in the womb, and a mother is WITH CHILD as that child resides in her womb (Ecc. 11: 5). This verse plainly states that human bones grow IN the womb (and they continue to grow right past young adulthood when those bones finally stop growing). Can a “Non-Life” have bones? Of course NOT! Only LIFE can have things like bones. By saying otherwise, is to point your middle finger at Ecc. 11: 5 (and the other verses too).
John the Baptist was plainly a PERSON - ALIVE and even having emotional understanding - while still in his mother’s womb (Luke 1: 41, 44). His mother, Elisabeth, called him “babe” while he was in the womb (Luke 1: 44). The angel declared Mary to be “with child” at the moment of her conception. While I acknowledge the Virgin Birth was unique, it nevertheless further illustrates the principle of “life at conception” (Matt. 1: 18, 1: 23).
What more Biblical evidence do you need? Freedom of choice? Yes! I believe in “choice.” I choose LIFE. Because any other choice is murder!
latterrain77
With regard to killing witches in our earlier his-
tory, although I cannot imagine how this con-
nects with abortion, many innocent people,
mainly women, were murdered by the church
simply because of gossip, disagreements, or
because the women would not obey. This was
hideous and an extreme miscarriage of justice,
and the way in which the judgment was carried
out was usually totally unbiblical.
I do find it interesting that when people do not
want to accept something in the Law and Pro-
phets, they call it "obsolete, because we are
under grace now," but when they want to en-
force another thing, they use those very Scrip-
tures to support it. Personally, I believe we
need to decide to accept the whole Book or
quit carrying those great big heavy Bibles
around, opting for a simple "New Testament"
without even the Psalms or Proverbs.
With regard to abortion, It has been proven that
the children feel pain as they are being ripped
apart and/or burned in the womb. If we can ser-
iously say that this does not matter, then I sup-
pose we can say abortion is all right, but our
God never said that it was.
I do find it interesting that as long as someone
wants to get rid of the unborn child, the child is
called a "parasite" (which is not true scientific-
ally), a "product," a "blob of tissue," or one of
many other terms which attemt to separate the
child from its humanity, but if the same fetus is
a wanted child, then it is "our baby" or "my
baby," even usually named, while the child
remains in the womb.
When I became pregnant with my first child, I
was young and ignorant and had never wanted a
child of my own. I was crying about being preg-
nant to a neighbor, and she suggested that I
take a quick day trip to New York, where abor-
tion had become legal then. Suddenly, the
thought of killing something cocreated by my
husband and me became "My Baby" instead of
an inconvenience.
That very daughter went through the same thing
years later, and her option was to keep her little
boy. Oh, how thankful to our God I am for these
lives!
Many times, abuse is brought up as an excuse
for aborting a child. The claim is that it is "more
humane." Well, I was reared in an extremely
abusive home, and I would go through it all
again to have the life I know now.
If we cannot consider the life of the child in
abortion--if the child has so little value--then
at least consider the life of the woman who
aborts: the guilt, the psychological problems,
the "empty arms syndrome," the questioning
that occurs (Will our God accept me? Will I ever
be good enough? But what I did was so hor-
rible! How can I be forgiven?) These are all very
real, whether or not the media reports them.
[ August 19, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
tory, although I cannot imagine how this con-
nects with abortion, many innocent people,
mainly women, were murdered by the church
simply because of gossip, disagreements, or
because the women would not obey. This was
hideous and an extreme miscarriage of justice,
and the way in which the judgment was carried
out was usually totally unbiblical.
I do find it interesting that when people do not
want to accept something in the Law and Pro-
phets, they call it "obsolete, because we are
under grace now," but when they want to en-
force another thing, they use those very Scrip-
tures to support it. Personally, I believe we
need to decide to accept the whole Book or
quit carrying those great big heavy Bibles
around, opting for a simple "New Testament"
without even the Psalms or Proverbs.
With regard to abortion, It has been proven that
the children feel pain as they are being ripped
apart and/or burned in the womb. If we can ser-
iously say that this does not matter, then I sup-
pose we can say abortion is all right, but our
God never said that it was.
I do find it interesting that as long as someone
wants to get rid of the unborn child, the child is
called a "parasite" (which is not true scientific-
ally), a "product," a "blob of tissue," or one of
many other terms which attemt to separate the
child from its humanity, but if the same fetus is
a wanted child, then it is "our baby" or "my
baby," even usually named, while the child
remains in the womb.
When I became pregnant with my first child, I
was young and ignorant and had never wanted a
child of my own. I was crying about being preg-
nant to a neighbor, and she suggested that I
take a quick day trip to New York, where abor-
tion had become legal then. Suddenly, the
thought of killing something cocreated by my
husband and me became "My Baby" instead of
an inconvenience.
That very daughter went through the same thing
years later, and her option was to keep her little
boy. Oh, how thankful to our God I am for these
lives!
Many times, abuse is brought up as an excuse
for aborting a child. The claim is that it is "more
humane." Well, I was reared in an extremely
abusive home, and I would go through it all
again to have the life I know now.
If we cannot consider the life of the child in
abortion--if the child has so little value--then
at least consider the life of the woman who
aborts: the guilt, the psychological problems,
the "empty arms syndrome," the questioning
that occurs (Will our God accept me? Will I ever
be good enough? But what I did was so hor-
rible! How can I be forgiven?) These are all very
real, whether or not the media reports them.
[ August 19, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
Very appropriate and precise!!
I can't believe that this is even a debate! Come on! All sorts of medical evidence has been documented that proves that by the time a baby in the womb,(Fetus is a word that soothes the conscience)is 12 weeks old he or she has every vital organ it will need for life. It simple takes the rest of the gestation to mature.God does not condone murder. And that is all it is. Post it, a lot of the abortion cases would not even exist if people would follow God's law of abstaining before marriage.
....and to think that some people don't think America needs revival?!?
If the command of God "Thou shall not commit adultery" were heeded, most of the problems involving abortion would be solved. If one other short statement of the Word of God were heeded, most all other problems concerning avortion could be solved. This is: The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
Prov 19:23
Remember also Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Prov 19:23
Remember also Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
TheOliveBranch
New Member
Give verses and post-it disappears?
posted August 18, 2002 12:26 AM
---------------------------------------------------Post-it wrote:
Let's go at this thing MORE logically:
Is it separate from the mother?
No. It can have different blood types and about half of them are of a different sex from the mother. Yet like a lung which is also separate from the mother as it can be removed and given to someone else to use, it can't survive on its own. Therefore, it until about 6 months, it is just a part of a woman.
__________________________________________________
Lung = Human Being
Insignificant human logic.
---------------------------------------------------Post-it wrote:
Let's go at this thing MORE logically:
Is it separate from the mother?
No. It can have different blood types and about half of them are of a different sex from the mother. Yet like a lung which is also separate from the mother as it can be removed and given to someone else to use, it can't survive on its own. Therefore, it until about 6 months, it is just a part of a woman.
__________________________________________________
Lung = Human Being
Insignificant human logic.
Well, one can apply your argument to the egg also since it has everything it needs to become a person also. Sorry, you and Helens argument of "features" don't hold water since something "else" must take place to make it live. In my example sperm must make contact, in your example the womb must make contact with X and Y and Z otherwise, like the egg, it will never be born.
I agree with both points you make here, I don't like hearing about abortions either, but these are the facts which original sin has left us to deal with. So who would you rather die a fetus that the Bible doesn't even acknowledge as a life or your daughter, or grand-daughter who has to go to a back alley with a coat hanger when you finally get in banned.
I'm all for revival and for our young boys and girls from having sex before marriage. But it ain't going to happen anytime soon; as we say in Texas.
Originally posted by Ps104_33:
If the command of God "Thou shall not commit adultery" were heeded, most of the problems involving abortion would be solved.Amen Brother!!!
This is a good general practice but won't stop evil from visting your door. What about the good Christian mother that just found out her daughter is having an abortion and she can't stop it. To the good mother, evil has arrived. Original sin shall continue taking its toll on Christians and non-Christians alike, we may be new creatures, but that doesn't let us off the hook.
Amen Brother, The mother should accept what the daughter choses and go on loving her daughter since the mother should know this verse by heart as we all do. This should also apply to parents of gay/lesbian children also... you know who you are.
[ August 21, 2002, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
I love verses, I would love to hear a verse that supports that abortion is murder. I keep asking for these verses and no one gives me any.Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Give verses and post-it disappears?
I took my wife to dinner tonight. After being on the board so long she demanded equal time.
You might have missed the part about any human tissue having DNA could be developed into a human being. But that really wasn't my point here.
The main point was that a fetus can't be removed and expected to live, (like any part of a human) If it can be removed and live on its own, then it is an individual person (life form). Therefore, a fetus is still just a part of a human just as a lung or any other part is.
Oh well, Post-it, are you really alive?!?!?! Pal, your just as dependent on God for your next breath as a baby (fetus for you abortionists)is on his or her mother for the first six months!
God told Jeremiah that He knew him from his mother's womb Jeremiah 1:5. God sees those innocent babies as people! He had a will and plan for his life.
Your promotion of abortion is going to wind you up in a heep of trouble with a God that holds great sanctity on life!
God told Jeremiah that He knew him from his mother's womb Jeremiah 1:5. God sees those innocent babies as people! He had a will and plan for his life.
Your promotion of abortion is going to wind you up in a heep of trouble with a God that holds great sanctity on life!
So is your lung, that doesn't make it a human life form.
God knows all future events, including that this fetus would be born and would be Jeremiah. He also knew Jeremiah before he was conceived, does that make the egg a human person? This verse cannot apply to granting life to a fetus anymore than to an egg or the bread that the mother ate to help develop the egg.
The Church's promotion of murder by abortion has no doubt caused some women to commit suicide due to guilt. They could now be in hell due to the guilt put out by the church, which is supported by your type of attitude. So you too, could wind up in a heap of trouble for causing the innocent to "fall". And I have a verse to back that up.
[ August 21, 2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]