Is Acts 17:30 only the elect or the entire human race?

[ICHTHUS]

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Now, Calvinists teach that the will of man is in bondage, and therefore no able to chose whether to follow the Lord Jesus or not. This, they say is only what the "elect" can do, since they have been predestined, and enabled by the Holy Spirit to come to Jesus.

However, the Holy Bible, as we can very clearly see here, states that GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, something that is IMPOSSIBLE, if ALL MEN, that is, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, does not have the God given capacity to repent. How can God COMMAND something from the WHOLE WORLD that is IMPOSSIBLE, if, as the Calvinist would have us believe, that they CANNOT?

It is very clear from the many posts on this forum, that Calvinists have a PROBLEM, in that THEY do NOT want to see EVERY LOST SINNER repent and come to Jesus Christ for salvation. They will also CHANGE the meaning of words like "WORLD" in John 3:16-17, to refer to only the "elect", even though JOHN CALVIN himself is AGAINST this! So, we challenge the Calvinist of twisting the meaning of the Bible, and instead of admitting this, which is what they do, and repenting from this, they instead attack you and issue warnings! SUCH is the love that they have for their fellow brothers! I wait to see how they deal with this passages from Acts, and see that cunning they use to make it say other than what is intended by the Teaching of the Holy Bible. [Edited: Discussing Mod actions in open forum.]

 

[Yeshua1]

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Now, Calvinists teach that the will of man is in bondage, and therefore no able to chose whether to follow the Lord Jesus or not. This, they say is only what the "elect" can do, since they have been predestined, and enabled by the Holy Spirit to come to Jesus.

However, the Holy Bible, as we can very clearly see here, states that GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, something that is IMPOSSIBLE, if ALL MEN, that is, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, does not have the God given capacity to repent. How can God COMMAND something from the WHOLE WORLD that is IMPOSSIBLE, if, as the Calvinist would have us believe, that they CANNOT?

It is very clear from the many posts on this forum, that Calvinists have a PROBLEM, in that THEY do NOT want to see EVERY LOST SINNER repent and come to Jesus Christ for salvation. They will also CHANGE the meaning of words like "WORLD" in John 3:16-17, to refer to only the "elect", even though JOHN CALVIN himself is AGAINST this! So, we challenge the Calvinist of twisting the meaning of the Bible, and instead of admitting this, which is what they do, and repenting from this, they instead attack you and issue warnings! SUCH is the love that they have for their fellow brothers! I wait to see how they deal with this passages from Acts, and see that cunning they use to make it say other than what is intended by the Teaching of the Holy Bible. That is if this post is not removed and I banned by some who really cannot stand being wrong!

God also commands all to believe in his Son then also?

 

[ICHTHUS]

God also commands all to believe in his Son then also?

YES, and the greatest sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ as the Saviour of the entire world!

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

 

[TCassidy]

Now, Calvinists teach that the will of man is in bondage, and therefore no able to chose whether to follow the Lord Jesus or not.

Uh, no. Particular Redemption teaches that all are condemned under sin and NONE can come to Christ apart from the regenerating Grace of God.

This, they say is only what the "elect" can do, since they have been predestined, and enabled by the Holy Spirit to come to Jesus.

No, they teach that NONE can come to Christ apart from the regenerating Grace of God.

However, the Holy Bible, as we can very clearly see here, states that GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, something that is IMPOSSIBLE, if ALL MEN, that is, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, does not have the God given capacity to repent.

Why would God tell people to believe and repent of their sins if they are slaves of sin and cannot?

Wouldn't that be cruel to require someone to do that which they cannot do? Such is the anti-Calvinists complaint.

Nevertheless, God requires that we be holy. He says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy,” (1 Pet. 1:16). Who among us would claim that we can be holy even when God commands that we be? Not I.

The simple fact is that God does require of us what we cannot do, not because He is mean, but because He is the standard of righteousness and holiness.

The standard does not become invalid because of someone's failure to keep it. He commands that we repent (Acts 17:30), yet it is God who grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:25).

He commands that we believe in Him (Exodus 20:1-3), yet He grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29).

God commands that which is holy and right even if we cannot accomplish it.

Yet, He grants the ability to people to do that which they cannot do themselves. Therefore, God gets the glory. Merely saying that God tells people to believe or repent doesn't mean they can believe or repent anymore than God commands that we stop sinning means that we can.

How can God COMMAND something from the WHOLE WORLD that is IMPOSSIBLE, if, as the Calvinist would have us believe, that they CANNOT?

See above.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Uh, no. Particular Redemption teaches that all are condemned under sin and NONE can come to Christ apart from the regenerating Grace of God.

No, they teach that NONE can come to Christ apart from the regenerating Grace of God.

Why would God tell people to believe and repent of their sins if they are slaves of sin and cannot?

Wouldn't that would be cruel to require someone to do that which they cannot do? Such is the anti-Calvinists complaint.

Nevertheless, God requires that we be holy. He says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy,” (1 Pet. 1:16). Who among us would claim that we can be holy even when God commands that we be? Not I.

The simple fact is that God does require of us what we cannot do, not because He is mean, but because He is the standard of righteousness and holiness.

The standard does not become invalid because of someone's failure to keep it. He commands that we repent (Acts 17:30), yet it is God who grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:25).

He commands that we believe in Him (Exodus 20:1-3), yet He grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29).

God commands that which is holy and right even if we cannot accomplish it.

Yet, He grants the ability to people to do that which they cannot do themselves. Therefore, God gets the glory. Merely saying that God tells people to believe or repent doesn't mean they can believe or repent anymore than God commands that we stop sinning means that we can.

See above.

Your arguments are more to do with Calvinistic "theology" than what the Bible actually teaches. God will NOT ask anyone to repent and come to Him for salvation is He were not SERIOUS about it! Calvinists may like to play silly games with people by teaching non-Bible stuff, but the God of the Bible has MORE Compassion and Love that He is indeed WILLING and also PLEADS that ALL must repent and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. I simply cannot understand WHY are Calvinists so AGAINST the salvation of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that ever lives, as GOD IS??? John 3:16-17, which is rightly called "The Gospel in a Nutshell", is just that, The Gospel of HOPE of a hopeless world that is hell-bound, unless they repent and turn to Jesus for their forgiveness and eternal life with him. WHY do Calvinists ALWAYS like to contend with others who preach the LOVE of Jesus for the entire human race, and the FACT that He loves them SO MUCH, that He actually DIED FOR ALL??? You guys do more DAMAGE to the Gospel of Jesus than any others who are True believers in Jesus!

 

[TCassidy]

Your arguments are more to do with Calvinistic "theology" than what the Bible actually teaches.

So, are you denying the verses I quoted are true? (2 Tim. 2:25) (Phil. 1:29).

I simply cannot understand WHY are Calvinists so AGAINST the salvation of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that ever lives,

Once again you post an untrue strawman. Why? Because you can't counter the arguments made using scripture?

I have preached the gospel for 50 years, and wept over the lost souls of men and women and boys and girls. I have made mission trips all around the world at great peril to my health and well being to carry the Gospel to the lost.

And you have the audacity to suggest I don't care, or am against the salvation of every single person on the planet?

You really are a man filled with hate, aren't you?

WHY do Calvinists ALWAYS like to contend with others who preach the LOVE of Jesus for the entire human race, and the FACT that He loves them SO MUCH, that He actually DIED FOR ALL???

Another untrue strawman. And again telling untruths about those of us who preach the Gospel of the Grace of Almighty God in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you no shame?

You guys do more DAMAGE to the Gospel of Jesus than any others who are True believers in Jesus!

By preaching that Christ died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried, and that He arose again does damage to the Gospel? How? That IS the Gospel.

And again you invent a dichotomy between "others who are True believes" and those of us who believe Salvation is by the Grace of God alone, implying that we are not "True believers."

Enough is enough.

 

[TCassidy]

the FACT that He loves them SO MUCH, that He actually DIED FOR ALL???

Uh, that is not what John 3:16 says. ουτως does NOT mean "so much." It means "in this manner" or "in this way."

John 3:16 says, This is the way that God loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son that the ones believing in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[ICHTHUS]

So, are you denying the verses I quoted are true? (2 Tim. 2:25) (Phil. 1:29).
Once again you post an untrue strawman. Why? Because you can't counter the arguments made using scripture?

I have preached the gospel for 50 years, and wept over the lost souls of men and women and boys and girls. I have made mission trips all around the world at great peril to my health and well being to carry the Gospel to the lost.

And you have the audacity to suggest I don't care, or am against the salvation of every single person on the planet?

You really are a man filled with hate, aren't you?

Another untrue strawman. And again telling untruths about those of us who preach the Gospel of the Grace of Almighty God in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you no shame?

By preaching that Christ died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried, and that He arose again does damage to the Gospel? How? That IS the Gospel.

And again you invent a dichotomy between "others who are True believes" and those of us who believe Salvation is by the Grace of God alone, implying that we are not "True believers."

Enough is enough.

I speak of Calvinists, as far as I recall, I asked you if you were one and you declined to answer! The fact remains whether you like it or not, that no true Calvinist really loves ALL of the lost, as they do NOT believe that Jesus cares enough for ALL because He did not die for ALL. Forget your theology about sufficient and efficient, as your STRAW MEN, this is NOT what the Bible teaches. I do hate anything that is opposed to the True Gospel Message of the Bible, that God is not willing that ANY should perish, and not try to keep on twisting their meanings to something other, because it does not suit our "theology".

So why don't Calvinists preach what they ACTUALLY BELIEVE, tell the lost that God may not love you, and that it is very possible that Jesus did not die for you, so there is a greater chance that you will end up in hell, because you are not one of the chosen! This is is warped teaching of Calvinism, but Calvinists are afraid to preach what the believe! It is Calvinism that teaches that God has foreordained ALL that comes to pass, which then would include the sinful acts of man.

 

[TCassidy]

I asked you if you were one and you declined to answer!

I did answer. In fact I answered several times. I am sorry you didn't understand the answer. I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

no true Calvinist really loves ALL of the lost

Another untrue attack on Gospel preaching, people loving Christians.

they do NOT believe that Jesus cares enough for ALL because He did not die for ALL.

And your straw man, which has been corrected several times, is back. Jesus DID die to all. How many more times do I have to say it until you finally understand. JESUS DIED FOR ALL!

opposed to the True Gospel Message

More ungodly attacks on preachers of God's Truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

So why don't Calvinists preach what they ACTUALLY BELIEVE,

They do.

tell the lost that God may not love you,

That would be a lie.

and that it is very possible that Jesus did not die for you,

That would be a lie.

This is is warped teaching of Calvinism

No, this is your false caricature of what you think (wrongly) that Calvinism is.

Calvinists are afraid to preach what the believe!

Another untrue attack on God's called preachers.

It is Calvinism that teaches that God has foreordained ALL that comes to pass, which then would include the sinful acts of man.

Another untrue straw man. And another one that you have been corrected on several times. God does NOT foreordain ALL that comes to pass. He only foreordains His decrees. The rest He permits without being the author of that which He permits.

 

[ICHTHUS]

I did answer. In fact I answered several times. I am sorry you didn't understand the answer. I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

Another untrue attack on Gospel preaching, people loving Christians.


And your straw man, which has been corrected several times, is back. Jesus DID die to all. How many more times do I have to say it until you finally understand. JESUS DIED FOR ALL!
More ungodly attacks on preachers of God's Truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


They do.
That would be a lie.

That would be a lie.

No, this is your false caricature of what you think (wrongly) that Calvinism is.

Another untrue attack on God's called preachers.

Another untrue straw man. And another one that you have been corrected on several times. God does NOT foreordain ALL that comes to pass. He only foreordains His decrees. The rest He permits without being the author of that which He permits.

Answer me this, does Calvinism teach that God has decreed all that comes to pass?

By the way, just how anyone can call themselves a Calvinist, after John Calvin, is beyond me? Is not he the person who approved of the murder of a heretic?

 

[MennoSota]

Ichthus, the more I read your comments the more I see you condemning God for being weak by not saving all humanity. Your comments make me pity you.

 

[ICHTHUS]

I did answer. In fact I answered several times. I am sorry you didn't understand the answer. I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

Another untrue attack on Gospel preaching, people loving Christians.


And your straw man, which has been corrected several times, is back. Jesus DID die to all. How many more times do I have to say it until you finally understand. JESUS DIED FOR ALL!
More ungodly attacks on preachers of God's Truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


They do.
That would be a lie.

That would be a lie.

No, this is your false caricature of what you think (wrongly) that Calvinism is.

Another untrue attack on God's called preachers.

Another untrue straw man. And another one that you have been corrected on several times. God does NOT foreordain ALL that comes to pass. He only foreordains His decrees. The rest He permits without being the author of that which He permits.

Shorter Catechism: "Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass."

READ: "FOREORDAINED WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS", which is complete rubbish and UNBIBLICAL as this says that mans SINS are foreordained by God! That is what "WHATSOEVER" means. Whether it is "decrees" or "foreordained" it is the SAME thing!

 

[TCassidy]

Shorter Catechism: "Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass."

READ: "FOREORDAINED WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS", which is complete rubbish and UNBIBLICAL as this says that mans SINS are foreordained by God! That is what "WHATSOEVER" means. Whether it is "decrees" or "foreordained" it is the SAME thing!

Exactly. Utter rubbish. What's your point? Are you making more false accusations that we actually believe that rubbish?

 

[TCassidy]

Answer me this, does Calvinism teach that God has decreed all that comes to pass?

As I understand it there is no monolithic doctrinal statement that all Calvinists adhere to. You would have to ask each person individually. I can only answer for myself. God did NOT decree all things that come to pass. I have tried to tell you several times there is a HUGE difference between the decretal will of God and the permissive will of God but it seems to be going right past you.

By the way, just how anyone can call themselves a Calvinist, after John Calvin, is beyond me?

I call myself a Christian, after my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Do you also condemn all Lutherans who are named for Luther? Or Wesleyans who are named for Wesley? Or Tertullianists who are named for Tertullian? And who are Baptists named after?

Is not he the person who approved of the murder of a heretic?

No. He tried to prevent it. His arrest was ordered by the Spanish Inquisition. The Catholic authorities sentenced him in absentia to death by slow burning.

After being arrested in Geneva the city council decided to write to other Swiss cities for their opinions, thus mitigating their own responsibility for the final decision. While waiting for the responses, the council also asked Servetus if he preferred to be judged in Vienne or in Geneva. He begged to stay in Geneva. When the replies from Zurich, Basel, Bern, and Schaffhausen were read the council condemned Servetus as a heretic. The following day he was sentenced to burning at the stake. Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burned which would have been much more humane. Their plea was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burned alive at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva by order of the city council.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ICHTHUS...

I wish you would find better use of your time than all this Calvinist witch-hunting of yours.

I am part of a missionary Baptist church which is NOT Calvinistic. They hold to Total Depravity & Eternal Security, but the others they oppose. They love me even though I am a 5 point Calvinist.

I am missions driven as I know that w/o the gospel, none will be saved.

My pastor loaned me a book by C.I. Scofield titled 'Prophecy Made Plain'. In that book, Scofield stated over 800,000,000 ppl had not heard the gospel(at that time).

A couple weeks back a Gideon spoke at church and stated the Gideons are making inroads(or is it enroads?) in India. He said that 1.3 BILLION ppl in India alone had not heard the gospel(and he is not a Calvinist either). Now, of those 800,000,000 Scofield mentioned in his book(the copyright in that book was from 1967 but I am not sure what year he actually wrote that book) and the 1.3 BILLION that Gideon mentioned, those who die w/o hearing the gospel, what is their eternal destiny?

I calmly wait for your response.

FTR, I am NOT a dispy, but my church is and he loaned that book to me as I asked him to teach the dispy's position. I am somewhere close to Chiliasm.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you also condemn all Lutherans who are named for Luther? Or Wesleyans who are named for Wesley? Or Tertullianists who are named for Tertullian? And who are Baptists named after?

We're named after a woman named Ana. [emoji57] [emoji8]

 

[TCassidy]

We're named after a woman named Ana. [emoji57] [emoji8]

Yeah. I met Darth Vader's wife today. Ela Vader.

 

[ICHTHUS]

ICHTHUS...

I wish you would find better use of your time than all this Calvinist witch-hunting of yours.

I am part of a missionary Baptist church which is NOT Calvinistic. They hold to Total Depravity & Eternal Security, but the others they oppose. They love me even though I am a 5 point Calvinist.

I am missions driven as I know that w/o the gospel, none will be saved.

My pastor loaned me a book by C.I. Scofield titled 'Prophecy Made Plain'. In that book, Scofield stated over 800,000,000 ppl had not heard the gospel(at that time).

A couple weeks back a Gideon spoke at church and stated the Gideons are making inroads(or is it enroads?) in India. He said that 1.3 BILLION ppl in India alone had not heard the gospel(and he is not a Calvinist either). Now, of those 800,000,000 Scofield mentioned in his book(the copyright in that book was from 1967 but I am not sure what year he actually wrote that book) and the 1.3 BILLION that Gideon mentioned, those who die w/o hearing the gospel, what is their eternal destiny?

I calmly wait for your response.

FTR, I am NOT a dispy, but my church is and he loaned that book to me as I asked him to teach the dispy's position. I am somewhere close to Chiliasm.

Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus! Thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "Calvinist witch-hunting"? In case you forgot, this forum is on the Calvinistic issue, which means this is discussed here.

Secondly, my best Christian friend of over 33 years is a 5 point Calvinist, and I have Facebook friends who are also 5 point Calvinists, so you are way off by your unfounded remark!

Thirdly, In my 35 years as a believer, I have found that those who are more interested in defending what MAN says, rather than what GOD says in His Word, have been the Calvinist. Even after they have been shown conclusively from the Word, that "Limited Atonement" is NOT taught in the Bible, and that Calvin himself did NOT believe this, they will disregard this and continue to argue their position.

Fourthly, I am very much angered that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, has done very much damage to the Christian Faith of Jesus Christ, and put MANY off Christianity, because they consider that their position is right, regardless of FACTS from the Bible.

Fifthly, I have seen from remarks on this very forum, that it is the Calvinist who will attack others who do not go along with their unbiblical nonsense, because they are so deluded that what they hold to is what the Bible Teaches.

Sixth, I believe very strongly that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, which is central to the Christian Faith, is abhorrent to the Lord, as it reduces His Great work for the sinful human race, whereby ALL can come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and attaining eternal life. How DARE they LIMIT the finished work of Jesus on the cross?

Seventh, I, like the Lord, VERY MUCH love the lost, and greatly desire that ALL are saved and spend eternity with the Lord Jesus, as NO person should go to hell.

I hope this clears my position

May the Lord grant us understanding

 

[ICHTHUS]

Exactly. Utter rubbish. What's your point? Are you making more false accusations that we actually believe that rubbish?

I feel that you are self-blinded to the Truth on what anyone says that goes against what you believe. You think that because you have been a Christian a long time, that you have all the answers. You always come back with your rather lofty responses, even though they are completely wrong! Instead of admitting that the Reformed position of the "decrees of God" are indeed unbiblical, and DO make God the author of sinful actions of man, you and the rest of those who follow this, will do everything to defend the undefendable!

 

[Yeshua1]

Your arguments are more to do with Calvinistic "theology" than what the Bible actually teaches. God will NOT ask anyone to repent and come to Him for salvation is He were not SERIOUS about it! Calvinists may like to play silly games with people by teaching non-Bible stuff, but the God of the Bible has MORE Compassion and Love that He is indeed WILLING and also PLEADS that ALL must repent and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. I simply cannot understand WHY are Calvinists so AGAINST the salvation of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that ever lives, as GOD IS??? John 3:16-17, which is rightly called "The Gospel in a Nutshell", is just that, The Gospel of HOPE of a hopeless world that is hell-bound, unless they repent and turn to Jesus for their forgiveness and eternal life with him. WHY do Calvinists ALWAYS like to contend with others who preach the LOVE of Jesus for the entire human race, and the FACT that He loves them SO MUCH, that He actually DIED FOR ALL??? You guys do more DAMAGE to the Gospel of Jesus than any others who are True believers in Jesus!

How can God demand sinners to repent and come to Jesus to get saved, knowing that their sin nature will not allow forthem to do that thing?