What is the reason "all men" are lost?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Acts 17:30 only the elect or the entire human race?
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
- Start date
- Status
Ac. 17.30 is applicable to "all men every where," the "world" for whom the only begotten Son of God was given (Jn. 3.16), "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. -Jn. 12.46
Here is the problem:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn. 3.19
God is the only one who can solve the problem by his SOVEREIGN GRACE. No, the phrase is not in scripture, but it is true nonetheless.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. -Jn. 12.46
Here is the problem:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn. 3.19
God is the only one who can solve the problem by his SOVEREIGN GRACE. No, the phrase is not in scripture, but it is true nonetheless.
Last edited:
Hank, you are doing a masterful job in passive aggressive adjustment.Hmm, do you really want to go down that road?
how about :
"Total Depravity"
"Unconditional Election"
"Limited Atonement"
"Irresistible Grace"
"Perseverance of the Saints"
Hmm, not there in the Bible either.
(Well did find "perseverance" in prayer).
I don't need to find another version beyond the Geneva Bible, the Bible of John Calvin.
While a modern version might have the word "sovereign" in it these versions were unavailable to Calvin.
I downloaded a 1560 version and could not fine "sovereign" in the Geneva either.
It was a PDF. Can someone else do a search?
Anyway 4 of the 5 TULIP words/phrases were not found in the KJV or the NIV.
"Entirely made up terms by philosophers of the Bible (to use your own words)".
HankD
There is no need to use TULIP to see that God predestines some to redemption while others remain dead in their trespasses and sins. We can let the scriptures inform us. All the elaborate schemes of theologians and scholars can be put to bed as we look at the scriptures for our source of truth.
At present the arguments regarding human choice in salvation have very little biblical merit or support. Nearly all of it is gleaned from taking verses out of context and forcing them into a presupposition. Let the text speak for itself and you will see God's sovereign work of choice all over the pages of scripture.
Agreed but the word itself is not.
another - OK "sovereign" is found in the NIV.
In the NIV OT it is the translation of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH.
In the NIV NT it is often simply the translation of lord or kurios.
Not a translation in either case of "sovereign" in either biblical language.
Look M, I agree with many of the Doctrines of Grace teachings but I don't accept the label calvinist because (for one thing) it is frowned upon by the scriptures:
Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of Christ.
Well not exactly but you can see where I am coming from.
Secondly I can't agree completely with any written, codified systematic theology of any human teacher but have a kind of "coat of many colors" approach (as many do).
Third the gospel is simple - belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life.
Salvation on the other hand is multi faceted, multi dimensional so I go with the simplicity of the gospel when it comes to fellowship.
Your brother in Christ
HankD
You seem to have an improper understanding of the passage. That is what happens when you do eisegesis, or projecting your own beliefs onto the Scriptures. Now what I will explain t you, you will not agree with. But then neither will many who have responded to you agree with as well.
Man is in bondage. He is blind and the truth of the Gospel is veiled to him. This is said outright in many places in the Word. Look at one of them in 2nd Corinthians 4:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
If we believe this passage for what it plainly says, we then might ask, why does God command men everywhere to repent? What many people do is mix up Law and Gospel. The Law is for everyman, and we read that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That means we have turned from God and His ways to live in rebellion. And since God is the rightful King and Owner of the world, it is our DUTY to live right before Him, and thus to repent of living in disobedience.
Have you done that? Do you still sin? Honest Christians admit that we still sin, as we read: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." So Christians need to repent continually since they still sin.
Thus the ides of repentance is not the same as believing in Jesus, force still believe and trust in Him even as we are failing to trust in Him. We don't lose our faith when we sin, we fail to execute it, or to carry it out.
When God calls every person everywhere to repent, it is because they are all sinners and are living in rebellion to God. Can an unsaved person NOT sin. Well yes and no. To answer that must understand what sin is. Sin is the transgression of God's Law, or missing the mark of His perfect holiness. Its not simply breaking a single law, for the Law is one, as we read in James 2: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." Now think of the 10 Commandments. One of them says do not lie. But then think of what Jesus said in reply, in Matthew 22: "“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”"
So if one tells the truth, they don't break the commandment that says, Do Not Lie, but if they fail to love God with all, they are still counted as a lawbreaker. In that way we know that a person living without faith can freely not lie, but still can not keep the Law. And that truth is not guesswork for we are plainly told in Hebrews 11: "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Note that verse dovetails nicely with Acts 17 because the Greeks were worshipping false gods, thus they were not coming to God but to idols.
So why then does God command unsaved sinners to repent if they cannot? One, it is their duty. Two, if they were sincere in seeking repentance, they would soon find out their inability and perhaps throw themselves before the mercy of the Judge.
First, it is the Bible that tells us they can not. What does the Bible say [besides what I have already mentioned]?
Romans 8 tells us:
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
So the question you asked is off. It is not HOW CAN God require what man can not do, but WHY DOES God require it.
The answer. already given. is that it is the duty of man to repent, and that in finding themselves unable to fulfill their duty might turn to God and seek mercy.
Some Calvinists don't think that God loves everybody, not all. Proper communication avoids needless squabbling.
But since i do not believe God loves everyone, let me address your unfounded assumptions. First, I wish everyone would repent and seek the mercy of God in the cross of Christ. Second, Calvinist don't really follow John Calvin. His last name is just a descriptive word as kind of a short hand to quickly describe what a person believes: a set of beliefs that people call Calvinism. I don't believe in baptizing infants, but John Calvin did. Third, the word "world" in John 3:16does not mean elect as some might say. But neither does it mean EVERY person who ever lived. It is simply a term that denotes, in general, the earth.
"“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."
Now if the word "world" means everyone who ever lived, let us read the passage in that way:
“For God so loved everyone who ever lived, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into everyone who ever lived to judge everyone who ever lived, but that everyone who ever lived might be saved through Him.
Since God did not send the Son INTO everyone who ever lived, it is ludicrous to apply such a meaning to the word "world". For when a person [in this case you] is driven by an outside-the-Bible understanding, they fail to use common sense in seeking to understand truth.
Is she bipolar? You know, sometimes up, other times, down.Yeah. I met Darth Vader's wife today. Ela Vader.
Calvinist isn't found in the Bible. It is a term made up by others, just like the term Christian, which the Bible says was a derogatory term that believers embraced. In other words, labeling is not a new thing. As for Sovereign, this is the word that many translations use for Ezekiel and Isaiah's writing. The idea of the all powerful King is prevalent everywhere. Not once do you find the idea of human free will mentioned in the Bible. It is a philosophy that some Christians argue for because they struggle with the logic of predestination.
You should not say you are of Christ either, if you are going to follow that verse as a rule.
Of course. Sola Scriptura
Indeed. 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 3.
Salvation is not multifaceted from God's perspective. God calls. God reconciles. God redeems. God sanctifies. This is what makes it grace. God giving us what we don't deserve. That's the simplicity of it all. Why do we want to or dare to muddy it up by demanding human effort in that process? As soon as we demand such effort we remove grace and add works.
No. Semi-tropical.
Doesn't matter. "Trinity" is not found in the bible. In fact "bible" is not found in the bible.
And "Omnipotent" isn't found in the bible but none of us would deny this fundamental attribute of God.
Let's get past the semantic games (see my signature line) and all of us admit God is Sovereign.
LOL, you say salvation is not multi faceted brother then you give it several faces provided by God
post salvation works are why we are left here on planet earth for a season - calling them "good works" is OK with God...
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
HankD
Come on Dr Tom! Let me have some fun with MennoSota!Doesn't matter. "Trinity" is not found in the bible. In fact "bible" is not found in the bible.
And "Omnipotent" isn't found in the bible but none of us would deny this fundamental attribute of God.
Let's get past the semantic games (see my signature line) and all of us admit God is Sovereign.
Ya, of course He is sovereign, what else could He be?
HankD
Post salvation is filled with various issues of sanctification. You seem to mix salvation and post salvation into an amalgam.LOL, you say salvation is not multi faceted brother then you give it several faces provided by God
post salvation works are why we are left here on planet earth for a season - calling them "good works" is OK with God...
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
HankD
God does the work. Pretty simple. Why are you attempting to make it hard on yourself?
Come on Dr Tom! Let me have some fun with MennoSota!
Ya, of course He is sovereign, what else could He be?
HankD
What we don't see is free will in reconciliation with God.Doesn't matter. "Trinity" is not found in the bible. In fact "bible" is not found in the bible.
And "Omnipotent" isn't found in the bible but none of us would deny this fundamental attribute of God.
Let's get past the semantic games (see my signature line) and all of us admit God is Sovereign.
That's because its too far above you to grasp
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
HankD
LOL, I don't need it. All I need is God's redemption of me, a sinner. Simple, not complex.That's because its too far above you to grasp
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
HankD
Calvinist [emoji41]Me too -
HankD
Denial [emoji57] [emoji109]I'll never admit to that.
HankD
- Status