Is alcohol a sin?

[A.J.Armitage]

Since Paul's advice came in an inspired letter without any qualification, we should be very reluctant to say it was wrong. Especially when we know mixing a little wine into the water was good advice. I'm sure they had hardier immune systems in those days, but drinking "pure" water can't have been very healthy.

 

[Justified]

Just one thing to remember: Jesus has not yet risen, when he was at the wedding feast, and at the last supper. So, technically, He lived in the Old Testament.

That being the case, if what some of you said is true and He served and made alcoholic wine, then Jesus would have been in direct violation of His Word! Habakkuk 2:15 (just for 1 verse, but isn't that all it takes)

We have to interpret Scripture in God's Holiness, not with our feelings, desires, or heart!

Also, the Bible never said Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

IfbReformer: One thing to add to your excellent post regarding the temperance movement. It also took off as an attempt to 'Americanize' primarily Catholic immigrants who were used to wine and beer. Temperance reflected nativism and was one of its tools.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by Justified:
Just one thing to remember: Jesus has not yet risen, when he was at the wedding feast, and at the last supper. So, technically, He lived in the Old Testament.

That being the case, if what some of you said is true and He served and made alcoholic wine, then Jesus would have been in direct violation of His Word! Habakkuk 2:15 (just for 1 verse, but isn't that all it takes)

We have to interpret Scripture in God's Holiness, not with our feelings, desires, or heart!

Also, the Bible never said Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

Nor did it say He breathed atmospheric air, walked using His feet instead of flippers, and did not speak to His disciples in Aztec. It's irrefutable historical fact that people in the Middle East had not yet had contact with Mexico, that people have feet, that the only kind of air available was atmospheric, and that sustainably non-alcoholic wine was invented in the 1800s. You appear to be letting your feelings and desires that alcohol should be inherently sinful cloud your understanding; I am not, since I do not drink and think drinking is kind of stupid. I'm simply standing on what is true and factual.

 

[Justified]

Habakkuk 2:15 (just for 1 verse, but isn't that all it takes)

[/QUOTE]You appear to be letting your feelings and desires that alcohol should be inherently sinful cloud your understanding; I am not, since I do not drink and think drinking is kind of stupid. I'm simply standing on what is true and factual. )[/QUOTE]

Please explain Habakkuk 2:15!

Then, please explain the 40 some other verses in Scripture that have a negative conotation to them about alcohol. And in most cases, some very wicked things happened.
Like John the Baptist, lost his head over alcohol.
Noah's son had a bad experience, because of alcohol.

But, a lot of you want to key in on a few verses which seem to indicate that alcoholic beverages are OK for consumption, when as a matter of fact, they are mostly mentioned for medical reasons.

Then we can get into the word games about fermentation/spoiling and Holiness/Sinless

 

[Alegra]

I was brought up in an alcoholic home (both parents). Before I was saved I 'preached' on the evils of alcohol, when I was saved I thought, "Great, even God agrees with me". That was before I studied what the Bible actually says. I have to say that I beleive that drinking alcohol is not a sin. The Bible warns about the abuse and a wise person will take heed, but trying to make out the Bible says something other than what it does is silly, it degrades the Word. I have read 10 page articles 'explaining' what God actually meant when He used the word wine. God's Word does not need that sort of 'explaining'. I personally do not drink alcohol because of my life experience and the warnings from God's word. I can share this with others without having to change God's Word to 'fit' my thoughts on the matter.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Kind regards to all,
Alegra

 

[Ransom]

Justified said:

Please explain Habakkuk 2:15!

Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies. (Hab. 2:15)

What do you want an explanation of?

Just that first part of the verse (the only part you want us to care about)?
Or the whole verse?
Or the whole verse in context of the entire book?

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Justified:


Please explain Habakkuk 2:15!

Then, please explain the 40 some other verses in Scripture that have a negative conotation to them about alcohol. And in most cases, some very wicked things happened.
Like John the Baptist, lost his head over alcohol.
Noah's son had a bad experience, because of alcohol.

But, a lot of you want to key in on a few verses which seem to indicate that alcoholic beverages are OK for consumption, when as a matter of fact, they are mostly mentioned for medical reasons.

Then we can get into the word games about fermentation/spoiling and Holiness/Sinless

Justified,

I would be happy to help explain Habakkuk 2:15 for you:

"15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies."
Habakkuk 2:15(NIV)

It is clear from the verse that giving his neighbor a drink is not the sin, but doing it with the intent to get him drunk so that he can see his neighbor's nakedness.

Hope that clears that up for you.


As to your statement:
"Then, please explain the 40 some other verses in Scripture that have a negative conotation to them about alcohol."

Show us one of the 40 verse that say alchohal itself - the substance itself is sinful. Only the abuse of it. I guarentee you that everyone of the the 40 verses you show either within the verse itself or the verses around it would show that is is talking about the abuse of alchohal - not the actual substance itself.

I could should hundreds of verse condeming the abuse of sex, and sex outside of marriage, but that does not make sex wrong does it?

As to your statement:
"Like John the Baptist, lost his head over alcohol.
Noah's son had a bad experience, because of alcohol."

Once again, John the Baptist did not loose his head over alchohal, he lost his head over the abuse of alchohal - drunkeness.

Noah's son had a bad experiance, not because of alchohal, but because of Noah's abuse of alchohal - drunkeness.

I hope this clears things up for you.

So to sum it concisely:

The Bible never says to consume alchohal itself is a sin, it never even says that we may only consume alchohal for medical purposes. It condemns the abuse of alchohal(drunkeness), just like it condemns the abuse of many other things.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

[Taufgesinnter]

Originally posted by Alegra:
I was brought up in an alcoholic home (both parents). Before I was saved I 'preached' on the evils of alcohol, when I was saved I thought, "Great, even God agrees with me". That was before I studied what the Bible actually says. I have to say that I beleive that drinking alcohol is not a sin. The Bible warns about the abuse and a wise person will take heed, but trying to make out the Bible says something other than what it does is silly, it degrades the Word. I have read 10 page articles 'explaining' what God actually meant when He used the word wine. God's Word does not need that sort of 'explaining'. I personally do not drink alcohol because of my life experience and the warnings from God's word. I can share this with others without having to change God's Word to 'fit' my thoughts on the matter.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Kind regards to all,
Alegra

Excellent post!! It is partly because I know how hard it is to control eating (IOW, I have a bad precedent in my life), partly that my stepmother drank herself to death, and partly that my adopted brother's death seems to have been alcohol-related, as well as the probability that a close blood relative on each side of my family were alcoholics that keep me from drinking alcohol. However, clearer and better biblical teaching has persuaded me that abuse of alcohol is sin, but that Jesus and the apostles drank, and that the wine in the Lord's Supper was wine. I have never been drunk or even a little tipsy, back when I used to have a few sips a couple times a year or so on special occasions, but since alcoholism begins with that one drink that puts people past their individual threshholds (whether it's their first or fortieth), I stopped drinking, don't drink, and won't drink. I can teach people not to drink, advise against it, refuse to join in or to sanction it by my presence where it is expected and encouraged, and warn against drunkenness--but I can't misuse Scripture to claim the Bible commands against drinking per se. The temperance movement is little more than 150 years old and sustainably unfermented grape juice is much younger than that.

So again, excellent post! I hear ya.
Tauf

P.S. Those who selectively cite just that part of a verse in Habakkuk (e.g., to deny that Jesus turned water into wine at Cana or served wine at the Last Supper), without quoting the rest of the verse that indicates the sin in the serving was that it was done to have one's way with the drinker, are on as solid scriptural ground as the church I attended that cited part of a verse in Amos to condemn all use of musical instruments.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Justified:
That being the case, if what some of you said is true and He served and made alcoholic wine, then Jesus would have been in direct violation of His Word! Habakkuk 2:15 (just for 1 verse, but isn't that all it takes)

Um, no: this verse does not verify your belief that alcohol in moderation is a sin.

The first miracle was turning the water into wine. As I have asked someone else: when did the Hebrew tradition of drinking wine at a wedding change from "grape juice" to wine? Additionally, during what time period did the Hebrew tradition of serving "grape juice" at Passover change to wine? Just like others on this discussion, you have pointed out that the Bible SPECIFICALLY mandates that the abuse of alcohol is a sin. How did you come to the conclusion that any consumption (moderation or otherwise) is a sin?

Using your logic, the Apostle Paul was under the Old Testament as well. Are you saying that his instruction to Timothy is heresy?

We have to interpret Scripture in God's Holiness, not with our feelings, desires, or heart!

I have seen you make this statement with respect to more than one subject. I ask you: exactly what do you mean?

And remember: I don't drink.......

 

[Justified]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
We have to interpret Scripture in God's Holiness, not with our feelings, desires, or heart!

I have seen you make this statement with respect to more than one subject. I ask you: exactly what do you mean?

And remember: I don't drink....... [/QB][/QUOTE]

This saying I posted, is in refrence to hermineutics of the study of Scripture. You NEVER interprit Scripture with your personal feelings, desires, or your heart.

You need to use all of Scripture to bring out God's Will and Holiness, as to our lives. And you don't use the abscure to base doctrine and dogmas on.[or you're no better then the cults]

Now, going back to the bulk of Scripture that deal with achoholic beverages, most of them are in the negative not the positive, about its use.

The reason I mentioned the two examples, is that one was a man of God, and one was a heathen.[I hope that you know which one was which]

And as a side note. I was raised in a tavern, and saw both the abuse and moderate drinking in society, and have found not one benefit to those who partake of such endeavors. Pretty close to 100% failures in marriages and families, including mine and my relatives and friends.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Justified:
This saying I posted, is in refrence to hermineutics of the study of Scripture. You NEVER interprit [SIC} Scripture with your personal feelings, desires, or your heart.

You need to use all of Scripture to bring out God's Will and Holiness, as to our lives. And you don't use the abscure [SIC?] to base doctrine and dogmas on.[or you're no better then the cults]

I would disagree with this wholeheartedly. Our lives will never measure up to "God's Will and Holiness," and to expect that it will is to set ourselves up for failure. That is not to say that we shouldn't try, but bear in mind that there is no possible way we could ever measure up to His Holiness. God gave us many absolutes (to which we refer as Doctrine) but the other areas of our lives are to be decided by ourselves by asking Him. As far as our hearts are concerned, read Psalm 119:9-16.

Now, going back to the bulk of Scripture that deal with achoholic beverages, most of them are in the negative not the positive, about its use.

You are absolutely right with this statement. Although moderate use of alcohol is not prohibited, I believe that most Passages are "in the negative" (to borrow from you) as a direct result of the potential destruction from its abuse.
Remember: Passover is in the first part of the month. The harvest would have been several months prior to this. Without refrigeration and pasteurization, the wine used at Passover would have undoubtedly been alcoholic. That being said, I would note that I believe Jesus took a sip, nothing more.

And as a side note. I was raised in a tavern, and saw both the abuse and moderate drinking in society, and have found not one benefit to those who partake of such endeavors. Pretty close to 100% failures in marriages and families, including mine and my relatives and friends.

This is heartbreaking, and you have just given the best justification for abstinence thus far. I used to drink, but saw the destruction in the lives of my friends, and decided that it was time for me to stop forever. I have never been judgemental about this: I simply decided that this was not an acceptable risk in my personal life.

Thank you for amplifying your answer.

 

[GODzThunder]

Alcohol was used in the wedding at Cena by Christ. The master of Ceremonies said that usually people give good wine at the start then fall back to cheaper wine when people are "tipsy" and no longer care. These people were not drunk though and it should be noted that wine is fermented but is a weak fermentation. Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for medical reasons (to ease ulcers).

Beer and hard liquer are considered strong drink and are said in proverbs to be a mockery.
also strong enhanced wines are to be considered hard liquer.

Still, I say that because that is what I believe the Bible teaches. I personally am against any alcohol (except for medical needs).

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
Beer and hard liquer are considered strong drink and are said in proverbs to be a mockery.
also strong enhanced wines are to be considered hard liquer.

Are you saying that a Guinness (named for a fellow Believer and the only beer I would touch when I did drink) is stronger than a glass of burgundy? I would disagree with this. There is a HUGE difference between beer and liquor.

I personally am against any alcohol (except for medical needs).

I agree with you completely on this one.

 

[Ransom]

GODzThunder said:

Beer and hard liquer are considered strong drink and are said in proverbs to be a mockery.
also strong enhanced wines are to be considered hard liquer.

No, Spirits and fortified wine are not what the Bible calls "strong drink," as the technology to distill them did not exist until the Middle Ages. However, the Israelites would have known about beer and mead, because of their closeness to Egypt and Babylon. Whatever prohibitions or cautions we wish to take from Scripture concerning spirits have to be inferred from what it says about wine.

Furthermore, "strong drink" is one of the things which the Hebrews were specifically permitted to drink and enjoy in a holy feast (Deut. 14:26).

 

[Bonesrburning]

Hello, I am brand new to this message board, and I have been skimming over this topic. I knew when I saw the title that there would be alot of posts so here is my two cents. So many people seem to want to ask other people if this certain act or that is "SIN". The Bible says that which is without FAITH is sin. And the just are to live by faith. Do you have faith that at this very moment God WANTS you to drink this glass of wine? I don't mean, do you think He doesn't MIND. Do you think it is His will. Alot of people today seem to be caught up in their "liberty" and not their "responsibility", don't be a stumbling block. Paul said that all things are lawfull, but all things are not expedient. John tells us to abide in Him so that we won't be ashamed at His coming. Since no man knows the hour of His coming, I think it is best to abstain from any alcohol. The last thing I would want, is to be drinking a beer, a glass of wine, a shot of tequila, or anything of that nature, and hear the voice saying, Come up hither, and meet The Lord in the air with a beer in my hand! For me alcohol is sin because I can't drink it and be full of faith. 1Thes. 2:12

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Bonesrburning:
So many people seem to want to ask other people if this certain act or that is "SIN". The Bible says that which is without FAITH is sin. And the just are to live by faith. Do you have faith that at this very moment God WANTS you to drink this glass of wine? I don't mean, do you think He doesn't MIND. Do you think it is His will. Alot of people today seem to be caught up in their "liberty" and not their "responsibility", don't be a stumbling block. Paul said that all things are lawfull, but all things are not expedient. John tells us to abide in Him so that we won't be ashamed at His coming. Since no man knows the hour of His coming, I think it is best to abstain from any alcohol. The last thing I would want, is to be drinking a beer, a glass of wine, a shot of tequila, or anything of that nature, and hear the voice saying, Come up hither, and meet The Lord in the air with a beer in my hand! For me alcohol is sin because I can't drink it and be full of faith. 1Thes. 2:12

Okay then, what was the first Miracle?

Also, what about Guinness? He was a Christian and created a beer that was actually good for you. How is drinking a Guinness a sin?
Bear in mind that I am a non-drinker....

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I find this discussion funny. Of course, I'm drinking a beer as I type.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Bonesrburning:
Do you have faith that at this very moment God WANTS you to drink this glass of wine?

Sure.

John tells us to abide in Him so that we won't be ashamed at His coming. Since no man knows the hour of His coming, I think it is best to abstain from any alcohol.

You certainly have the right to your opinion, but if we are acting in faith when we consume alcoholic beverages, then it’s a great thing to be doing when the Lord comes.

The last thing I would want, is to be drinking a beer, a glass of wine, a shot of tequila, or anything of that nature, and hear the voice saying, Come up hither, and meet The Lord in the air with a beer in my hand! For me alcohol is sin because I can't drink it and be full of faith.

Then you are doing well to abstain.


Thanks for pointing out the distinction between what God may permit and what God desires!