Is America at war, or not?

[poncho]

This is just false. Speech after speech was given on the house floor by both liberals and conservatives for years as to the intelligence reports on WMD's. And we still do not know how much was moved into Syria since we lng announced our going into Iraq before we ever got there.

Intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have access to weapons of mass destruction was received by the Government ten days before Tony Blair ordered the invasion of Iraq, the inquiry into the war was told yesterday.

Inspectors in Iraq had also told the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that they believed that Saddam might not have chemical and biological weapons. But with British and US troops massed on the border, the new intelligence was dismissed.

SOURCE

So, how many times does a politician have to lie to your face before you'll call him a liar Rev?

What you really mean to say is "I was hoodwinked by a gaggle of corrupt self serving people posing as our leaders and all their corporate talking heads but I'll never admit it no matter how much cold hard evidence to the contrary I have to dismiss". Right? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Revmitchell]

Intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have access to weapons of mass destruction was received by the Government ten days before Tony Blair ordered the invasion of Iraq, the inquiry into the war was told yesterday.

Inspectors in Iraq had also told the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that they believed that Saddam might not have chemical and biological weapons. But with British and US troops massed on the border, the new intelligence was dismissed.

SOURCE

So, how many times does a politician have to lie to your face before you'll call him a liar Rev?

There were multiple intelligence sources some concerned that there were WMD's and some that were concerned that there were no WMD's. So it is dishonest to simply focus on one that fits the presupposition and judge those who made decisions.


What we do know without doubt is that Saddam had WMD's at one time. We also know that he was continuing to develop WMD's. We also know that he will and has used them against his neighbors and his own people. The fact that he was working to develop WMD's alone was enough to go back in as we were under a cease fire. In other words we were still at war with Iraq the entire time.

We also know that trucks moved from Iraq to Syria in during the advanced warning time before going back in. We do not know exactly what was on those trucks.

But in the end with or without WMD's we were justified in going back in and the WMD's were only a fraction of the case made to do so. But conspiracy wacko's need to focus and redirect to that one small part of the over all picture to make their case just as they need to focus on a small section of all the intelligence reports to make their case.

The liars are the ones who do this and no one else.

 

[Dragoon68]

There's a "fatal error" in your logic. ...

No, Poncho, I think it is you that is making a "fatal error". That error is not recognizing our enemies for who and what they are and, instead, substituting our own into their place.

 

[NiteShift]

Nation building is not war. Our young men and women shouldn't be led to believe they are fighting for something they are not. And when it is discovered they have been thrown in harms way for a pack of lies . . . the honorable thing to do is tell them the truth and get them out as fast as possible without a pile of guilt being thrown on them for believing in their dishonest leaders.

Nation building includes helping an elected government to stabilize their country and make it safe for people to go about their own business. That's what our troops have been involved in in Iraq, and they know it. They also know that by fighting Al Qaeda in their own part of the world they have kept them from waging war on their families at home.

 

[carpro]

You have no room to question my respect for our military people after the way you've used them.

One thing is certain.

You have no idea what war is or what war is like. Therein lies your biggest problem, making your absurd stance almost too easy to discount as the abnormal ravings or a paranoid conspiracy theorist that sees enemies everywhere , but has never had to face any of them when they had a gun in their hands.

The reality of war, in your mind , has to be relegated to a distant second place to your theories.

Everyone is a tool of "them" , but you, of course.

 

[poncho]

No, Poncho, I think it is you that is making a "fatal error". That error is not recognizing our enemies for who and what they are and, instead, substituting our own into their place.

What?

You mean like Al Qaida? The CIA database of Arab freedom fighters "we" recruited to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. You mean that enemy?

An enemy of our own making.

And how about Saddam? Another enemy "we" supported, and stood idly by while he killed his own people.

Do some reasearch for crying out loud Dragoon. We created Al Qaida and helped to create and maintain Saddam! If it weren't for our constant meddling in others affairs we'd have never even heard of Al CIA Duh. Get your facts straight for once and stop confusing them with corporate propaganda, they are not the same thing.

So your fatal error is this . . . either you have no idea who our "enemies" are and where they came from or you just don't care so long as you and Carpro can dance around wave your flag and call people who bring up facts you'd rather ignore nuts. Your position has been debunked by history and the facts several times over. Get over it and get with the program.

 

[poncho]

One thing is certain.

You have no idea what war is or what war is like. Therein lies your biggest problem, making your absurd stance almost too easy to discount as the abnormal ravings or a paranoid conspiracy theorist that sees enemies everywhere , but has never had to face any of them when they had a gun in their hands.

The reality of war, in your mind , has to be relegated to a distant second place to your theories.

Everyone is a tool of "them" , but you, of course.

More childish gibberish from the mighty Car-Pro. If you can't refute the facts start pointing fingers and calling names. Brilliant! :laugh:

This just goes to prove my point that you have no legitimate arguement.

Like I told Dragoon. Get your facts straight, stop confusing them with corporate propaganda (if you are even able at this point, which I highly doubt) they are not the same thing.

Practically everything you ever believed about the "QWOT" has now been debunked by history and the facts. Get over it and get with the program.

Stick up for your country and countrymen instead of all the international corporate sponsors who have no qualms about destroying both to make a buck.

 

[poncho]

Nation building includes helping an elected government to stabilize their country and make it safe for people to go about their own business. That's what our troops have been involved in in Iraq, and they know it. They also know that by fighting Al Qaeda in their own part of the world they have kept them from waging war on their families at home.

Who and what is Al Qaeda? Where did it come from?

Let me give you a hint . . . picture a dog eating it's own vomit. Now, where did the vomit come from?

 

[Revmitchell]

What?

You mean like Al Qaida? The CIA database of Arab freedom fighters "we" recruited to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. You mean that enemy?

So?

An enemy of our own making.

No this is false.

And how about Saddam? Another enemy "we" supported, and stood idly by while he killed his own people.

And that does not negate our need to be in Iraq

Do some reasearch for crying out loud Dragoon. We created Al Qaida and helped to create and maintain Saddam! If it weren't for our constant meddling in others affairs we'd have never even heard of Al CIA Duh. Get your facts straight for once and stop confusing them with corporate propaganda, they are not the same thing.

Supporting them for a common interest and then have on us does nothing to discredit our position. That was their choice not ours. This is a strawman argument.

So your fatal error is this . . . either you have no idea who our "enemies" are and where they came from or you just don't care so long as you and Carpro can dance around wave your flag and call people who bring up facts you'd rather ignore nuts. Your position has been debunked by history and the facts several times over. Get over it and get with the program.

Not debunked at all. Strawman arguments do nothing of the sort.

 

[rbell]

You could have said that in the first place.

The reason I'm frustrated is because the principles of American justice are near and dear to me. I plan on going to law school once I finish my B.A. in political science and I don't like seeing the government play games with justice like it did under the Bush admininstration. If they hadn't already been tainted, perhaps military commissions would have been okay. I just think when you try non-state actors in a military commission it's a slippery slope.

It really makes no difference what you "feel." Why can't you understand that?

The rule of law supercedes your "feelings." The rule of law does not give the same procedures for non-citizen enemies of the US as it does citizens that are criminals.

Perhaps you need a refresher course in this concept of the "rule of law." Your "feelings" are irrelevant. The law says these cretins get a military tribunal. And that's that. Don't like it? Then change the law, or leave the country. But either way, the laws are to be followed. Unless you are a liberal, with an agenda...then, unfortunately, you can ignore the Constitution, the rule of law, and you can make up stuff as you go along (no matter how harmful or dangerous it is to the United States).

Look, I'm not usually this dogmatic...but let's face it: this touchy-feely garbage some of you guys are engaged in will destroy our country. Not sure why you're blind to it...but you are, and it's dangerous.

Categorize the above paragraphs under the heading "objective truth," and realize that your feelings are subservient to it. Thanks.

 

[NiteShift]

Who and what is Al Qaeda? Where did it come from?

Let me give you a hint . . . picture a dog eating it's own vomit. Now, where did the vomit come from?

Thanks for the hint, but that is inaccurate. The US supported the Afghan Mujahidin locals by funneling money through Pakistan.

The Al Qaeda were a different animal altogether. Arab-based, they had their own sources of training and funding, and they received no money from the US.

 

[poncho]

Thanks for the hint, but that is inaccurate. The US supported the Afghan Mujahidin locals by funneling money through Pakistan.

The Al Qaeda were a different animal altogether. Arab-based, they had their own sources of training and funding, and they received no money from the US.

Obviously you aren't ready to be a Jedi my little padawan leaner.

Meet "Al Qaeda"

"Al Qaida was neither a terrorist group nor Osama bin Laden's personal property . . . The terrorist actions in Turkey in 2003 were carried out by Turks and the motives were local and not international, unified, or joint. These crimes put the Turkish government in a difficult position vis-a-vis the British and the Israelis. But the attacks certainly intended to 'punish' Prime Minister Erdogan for being a 'toot tepid' Islamic politician.

" . . . In the Third World the general opinion is that the countries using weapons of mass destruction for economic purposes in the service of imperialism are in fact 'rogue states," specially the US and other NATO countries.

" Some Islamic economic lobbies are conducting a war against the 'liberal" economic lobbies. They use local terrorist groups claiming to act on behalf of Al Qaida. On the other hand, national armies invade independent countries under the aegis of the UN Security Council and carry out pre-emptive wars. And the real sponsors of these wars are not governments but the lobbies concealed behind them.

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida.

And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the 'TV watcher' to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US and the lobbyists for the US war on terrorism are only interested in making money."

SOURCE

The greatest threat to our nation isn't some phoney baloney global bogeymen in turbans, it's the corporate fascists who have taken control of our government.

I'm quite surprised all you mainstream hypnotee "tv watcher" brainiacs haven't figured that out yet, but then again what can we expect from people so caught up in the false left vs right paradigm that they'll believe what ever the corporate raiders talking head division tells them, without question.

And no we are not at war. Imperial mobilization is the term that best describes the situation we find ourselves in today. Drop all the glorious red white and blue corporate propaganda and the sanctimonious tough guy talk and that's what we're left with. Like it or not.

You all have a alot to learn. :wavey:

 

[NiteShift]

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida."

And yet in a previous post you accuse the US of creating Al Qaeda. Hmm. Gonna have to make up your mind.

In his book 'Knights Under the Prophet's Banner' Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri stated "The United States did not give one penny in aid to the Arab mujahideen."

Obviously you aren't ready to be a Jedi my little padawan leaner.

Well I served in the military when I was young, and my son served two tours in Iraq when he was in. When you have done the same you can come back and use the condescending attitude all you like.

 

[billwald]

Any person who volunteers for his nation's army is patriotic and brave. American, German, Al Qaida . . . his intent is to defend his country.

 

[rbell]

Any person who volunteers for his nation's army is patriotic and brave. American, German, Al Qaida . . . his intent is to defend his country.

Wow.

There you have it.

Billwald thinks there's no difference between a islamo-terrorist suicide bomber and a US marine.

I find it sad that they sacrifice so much for you to hold such a disgusting opinion. It speaks quite well for them...not so much for you. Shame on you.

 

[carpro]

Wow.

There you have it.

Billwald thinks there's no difference between a islamo-terrorist suicide bomber and a US marine.

I find it sad that they sacrifice so much for you to hold such a disgusting opinion. It speaks quite well for them...not so much for you. Shame on you.

I'm not sure how bw's current comments square with his earlier comments that he would tell his own kids to flee the country rather than serve.

I smell a hypocrite.

 

[Dragoon68]

What?

You mean like Al Qaida? The CIA database of Arab freedom fighters "we" recruited to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. You mean that enemy?

An enemy of our own making.

And how about Saddam? Another enemy "we" supported, and stood idly by while he killed his own people.

Do some reasearch for crying out loud Dragoon. We created Al Qaida and helped to create and maintain Saddam! If it weren't for our constant meddling in others affairs we'd have never even heard of Al CIA Duh. Get your facts straight for once and stop confusing them with corporate propaganda, they are not the same thing.

So your fatal error is this . . . either you have no idea who our "enemies" are and where they came from or you just don't care so long as you and Carpro can dance around wave your flag and call people who bring up facts you'd rather ignore nuts. Your position has been debunked by history and the facts several times over. Get over it and get with the program.

You're just not very convincing to me, Poncho, and you come across rather antagonistically as well. I'm also not intimidated by this sort of response and remain confident in what I have discerned.

 

[saturneptune]

We are getting apples and oranges mixed up in some of these posts. The first point to be made is, of all people on this board, Dragoon and Carpro understand what the price of freedom is, that it goes much deeper than waving a flag and singing "God Bless America." They without a doubt recognize an enemy. It is true we help set up some of our present enemies in the past, but that does not mean they are not our enemies now. They still have to be dealt with.

The subject that seems to be getting mixed up with the above is the fact that the present two parties in power are anti-Constitutional and rob the American people daily. The corporations are in an unholy alliance with the politicians, and this must be dealt with by the American people by ridding ourselves of Republicans and Democrats.

That has nothing to do with the fact we have to fight our enemies with swift victory, decisively, and a quick ending, regardless who in power in Washington and our countries past mistakes.

 

[carpro]

The subject that seems to be getting mixed up with the above is the fact that the present two parties in power are anti-Constitutional and rob the American people daily. The corporations are in an unholy alliance with the politicians, and this must be dealt with by the American people by ridding ourselves of Republicans and Democrats.

That has nothing to do with the fact we have to fight our enemies with swift victory, decisively, and a quick ending, regardless who in power in Washington and our countries past mistakes.

Yes.

The time for recriminations and complaining about what we should have done, whether or not we should have done it, or what is the perfect way to do it, are long past.

It's time to shut up and fight or bring 'em home. No in between.

The dawdling of the undecider is wasting lives.