Is America Under Judgement From God? Is America Under An Abandonment Judgement From God?

[Covenanter]

I never said the middle ages were so bad. Just how is today worse?
What is worse?
Wars?
Famine?
Earthquakes?

What is worse about today? Men are waxing worse and worse. The 20th century was the deadliest in human history with tens of millions murdered by their own governments. The old America is gone forever and we now have almost daily demonstrations. Islam is on the march against everyone worldwide. Most of the world is destitute. Even backward countries have atomic weapons, making the threat of war unbearable. War itself is now very deadly due to new technologies. The church is asleep.

Before doing a survey of the last 6,000 years, we'll refer to Scripture:
Jesus said:

Mat. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.​

At this point I won't argue preterism. Jesus warned that all these things would be happening but were not signs either of his coming or the end. His Olivet sermon finishes with the warning:

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”​

Watch & pray, & live as salt & light in a corrupt & doomed, cursed world.

 

[Covenanter]

That said, if the leaders of a nation defy the laws of God, & encourage evil to flourish, while punishing the godly, then that nation should expect to suffer the wrath of God.

1 Peter 2:13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.​

Our wonderful, God-blessed prosperity & peace, was achieved by war & slavery, the extermination or subjugation of native populations.

Desmond Tutu of South Africa said something like, "When the white man came, we had the land, & they had the Bible. We closed our eyes to pray, & when we opened them, they had the land & we had the Bible."

The Israelites were warned against trusting in their prosperity, & forgetting God.

In the 19th century, when the Great White Queen Victoria, Empress of India, ruled the world, the common people in England were starving, even in harvest time, because the gentry owned ALL the land. After the war of independence all the serious criminals were shipped off to Australia - guilty of catching rabbits & other wild animals to feed their families, failing to pay rent & so falling into debt, desperate women turning to prostitution. And Ireland - maintaining the RC religion because of fierce subjugation by the Protestants was deliberately starved, with millions dying or fleeing to the US.

My father, Lloyd George Day was the 8th in a poor family. The previous year Lloyd George had the first National Insurance Act passed. (My mother was Doris Day, but that's another story.

 

[agedman]

It is correct that the ungodly human heart devises evil, and publishes evil as being good.

Wars in the past have been moderated by technology in that more were not killed. Such is no longer the case.

Because of the technology advancements, the prophecies of the destruction of huge amounts of the earth revealed in the 7 bowls of Revelation can be taken literally, where just a 100 years ago, many taught them as allegory or hyperbole, if they were taught at all.

Where is the Holy Spirit?

What assembly earnestly desires to be cleansed from the worldly influences? Rather, chases after the worldly to appear attractive. Just as Jezebel, the excess and deviousness is covered.

What believer earnestly stores the Scriptures in the very core of their life to guide them away from sinfulness? Learning of discernment and understanding is found in self help books and rallies.

The "shining light set upon a hill" is being extinguished.

That it happen soon or late will not deter the flame going out.

If not Scripture, then history holds such thinking as having veracity.

 

[church mouse guy]

We also have a lot more of a population. Numbers will be up in war.
Like I said your thinking is way to narrow. No one is doubting America is getting worse in this century. But it is not the worse in history.

As you can see WW2 is the deadliest, but population percentage it is not near the "deadliest" in human history.

66 million Second World War 20C
40 million Genghis Khan 13C
27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
million Joseph Stalin 20C
18½ million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
15 million First World War 20C
million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C
13 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
10 million Xin Dynasty 1C
10 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
9 million Russian Civil War 20C
7½ million Thirty Years War 17C
7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C
7 million Fall of Rome 5C
7 million Chinese Civil Wars 20C

The 1600s lost 10-15 percent of the population alone!

Twentieth Century Atlas - Historical Body Count

Everyone may have a nuke. It could turn worse. But thats just a maybe. So far, the wars have always been there.

You omitted my point that many people died at the hands of their own governments in the twentieth century and quoted only a narrow range of selective statistics. The 20th century in terms of numbers, not percentages as you used, was the darkest century in history. It is estimated that communism alone worldwide murdered one hundred million in the last 100 years. You left out, for examples, Cambodia and Cuba, not to mention other areas of Latin America. You left out Korea and Vietnam, etc. You have to compile an exhaustive list of all of the countries in the world, including all of the wars in Africa, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Covenanter]

Back to Rants rant -

IN NOAH's DAY - Genesis 6:5,11,12 ...'And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.'

Alluding to Luke 17 -

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other partunder heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.​

Rant wonders - "So Jesus is saying that the world in the end times would 'mirror' what it was like in the days of Noah and Lot. Do we have a world like that today? "

Avoiding my Preterist understanding, the indication is that earth's years are numbered. Life will appear to be going on "normally" as far as the wicked are concerned until the day of judgment when the Lord will be revealed. BUT wickedness will be absolute & unrepentable, despite Gospel witness.

Judgments occurred when man became utterly wicked before the flood, before Sodom was destroyed, before the Israelites were allowed to take the promised land. (Gen. 15:16) Also Judah before the Babylon captivity, & this generation that rejected their Messiah & the Gospel, & suffered destruction in AD 70.

Rant's suggestion is that people of our generation, particularly in US, are approaching that state of absolute wickedness, & therefore the "rapture" is imminent, so that we may be the final generation.

I won't discuss the "rapture" here - we are concerned with the second coming & possible signs.

A further suggestion concerns the fact that the many Jews have taken possession of the promised land, Israel. Again it is not the place to discuss the relationship between Jews & Palestinians. Is the fig tree putting forth leaves.

I don't think society is absolutely wicked. There are many unbelievers who act in goodwill, living in peace & supporting charities. We aren't in danger from ordinary people, regardless of nationality religion. I live in an area where there are more Sikhs & Muslims than English.

Nor do I think prophecy teaches the return of Jews to Israel. There Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, has come to redeem them. Many thousands responded to the Gospel call, & have responded down the ages. Apart from Messianic Jews, present day Jews are Jews because they reject the Gospel. Along with all the non-Christian religions they are welcomed by the Gospel, & in Christ, Abraham's Seed, all nations on earth, on an individual basis, will be blessed on repentance & faith in Christ.

No. I don't think the signs indicate the imminent return of the Lord Jesus for general resurrection & judgment, but all these signs are indicative of a world that deserves judgment, but for the grace & longsuffering of our God. Rant's warning is valid. It echoes Paul's -

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”​

 

[HankD]

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Business as usual and suddenly they were caught by surprise...

Only a small remnant were delivered from the wrath of God.


HankD

 

[agedman]

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Business as usual and suddenly they were caught by surprise...

Only a small remnant were delivered from the wrath of God.


HankD

The assembly of 8 souls was precious to God.

Yet, typically modern assemblies would mock at such a small group of the dedicated.

 

[prophecy70]

You omitted my point that many people died at the hands of their own governments in the twentieth century and quoted only a narrow range of selective statistics. The 20th century in terms of numbers, not percentages as you used, was the darkest century in history. It is estimated that communism alone worldwide murdered one hundred million in the last 100 years. You left out, for examples, Cambodia and Cuba, not to mention other areas of Latin America. You left out Korea and Vietnam, etc. You have to compile an exhaustive list of all of the countries in the world, including all of the wars in Africa, etc., etc., etc.

Because there is more people. So the numbers are higher. 10-15 percent of the population was not wiped out in the 20th century. Therefor I do not see it as the worst period in time.

I dont understand your reason for being the worse, just the loss of life?

there is a lot of ways this is the best century.

 

[agedman]

Because there is more people. So the numbers are higher. 10-15 percent of the population was not wiped out in the 20th century. Therefor I do not see it as the worst period in time.

I dont understand your reason for being the worse, just the loss of life?

there is a lot of ways this is the best century.

Before WWI, my father said that people thought the world was going to get better and better until the church ushered in the kingdom of God.

Amazing how a bit of world conflict changes thinking.

And the worse is yet to come.

Just on a side note, all the American dead totaled from the earliest conflicts through the Vietnam wars did not total the total number dead as a result of the War of Northern Agression.

 

[Covenanter]

Before WWI, my father said that people thought the world was going to get better and better until the church ushered in the kingdom of God.

Amazing how a bit of world conflict changes thinking.

And the worse is yet to come.

Just on a side note, all the American dead totaled from the earliest conflicts through the Vietnam wars did not total the total number dead as a result of the War of Northern Agression.

By "all the American dead" are you including the native Americans slaughtered by the European settlers, and the African slaves?

 

[agedman]

By "all the American dead" are you including the native Americans slaughtered by the European settlers, and the African slaves?

Most native Americans were not “slaughtered by European settlers.” Neither were African slaves.

Both have times of great sorrow at the hand of ungodly, but so did and do believers have great sorrows. It is the inexcusable ungodly human nature.

The popular myths of mass killing are confined to a couple plains groups who bore the brunt of excess, but not by European settlers.

It is enough to lay much evil treatment and broken vows being done upon both groups by the US government. There is no valid excuse for one to claim to be a follower of Christ and suppose He will hold them and the people they represent guiltless.

On aside note, there is a pattern of excessive ungodly treatment toward the grand south by the northern invaders “march to the sea,” that parallels that of the excess encouraged by the same officers toward the plains Native American. “The only good Indian is a dead Indian” was from the mouth of Gen. Sherman, repeated in Theodore Roosevelt’s speech as, “9 out of 10 are.”

It is also noteworthy that the US was not covered over with huge numbers of Native Americans. The population numbers of South and Central America has historically been greater than the family groupings above the Rio Grand.

 

[HankD]

There is no class division, ALL murder is of the Cain and Abel type.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

HankD

 

[HankD]

Well, it's not an everyday event when Christians rejoice in the misfortune of others or show a practice of "righteous indignation"
but we should remember that Jesus was not politically correct in His treatment of people

Matthew 23:33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

True, He was no doubt trying to shame these "vipers" into repentance and hopefully that is what our objective is when we give others a taste of their own medicine.

HankD

 

[agedman]

Well, it's not an everyday event when Christians rejoice in the misfortune of others or show a practice of "righteous indignation"
but we should remember that Jesus was not politically correct in His treatment of people

Matthew 23:33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

True, He was no doubt trying to shame these "vipers" into repentance and hopefully that is what our objective is when we give others a taste of their own medicine.

HankD

More than once, I pondered was He shaming them, or just confirming (as God did Pharaoh) the hardness?

 

[church mouse guy]

Because there is more people. So the numbers are higher. 10-15 percent of the population was not wiped out in the 20th century. Therefor I do not see it as the worst period in time.

I dont understand your reason for being the worse, just the loss of life?

there is a lot of ways this is the best century.

The corpses were stacked to the sky. In the USA in the 20th century there must have been 30 million abortions due to the government removing due process from the unborn child and saying in effect that the unborn child was not a human being in spite of the scientific evidence to the contrary. No says that the 20th century was a good century. Stalin starved the Ukraine just as Castro is starving Cuba and Maduro is starving Venezuela, a country that has more oil than Saudi Arabia. You have already mentioned some of the wars in the 20th century and there were many others that you did not mention. Idi Amin killed 100,000 and ate some of them. What about what the Duvaliers did to Haiti? What about the Mexican revolution and all of the dead there and the restrictions put on freedom of religion in Mexico that no priest could appear outside of a church in clerical garb? In conclusion, the 20th century was the bloodiest in human history. The only thing worse would have to have been Noah's Flood of 4,500 years ago that destroyed the entire world, including all people except Noah and the seven people on the Ark with him.

 

[HankD]

More than once, I pondered was He shaming them, or just confirming (as God did Pharaoh) the hardness?

Both maybe?

Well, its true that snakes are coldblooded but I think God wants human "snakes" to be saved anyway.

HankD

 

[prophecy70]

The corpses were stacked to the sky. In the USA in the 20th century there must have been 30 million abortions due to the government removing due process from the unborn child and saying in effect that the unborn child was not a human being in spite of the scientific evidence to the contrary. No says that the 20th century was a good century. Stalin starved the Ukraine just as Castro is starving Cuba and Maduro is starving Venezuela, a country that has more oil than Saudi Arabia. You have already mentioned some of the wars in the 20th century and there were many others that you did not mention. Idi Amin killed 100,000 and ate some of them. What about what the Duvaliers did to Haiti? What about the Mexican revolution and all of the dead there and the restrictions put on freedom of religion in Mexico that no priest could appear outside of a church in clerical garb? In conclusion, the 20th century was the bloodiest in human history. The only thing worse would have to have been Noah's Flood of 4,500 years ago that destroyed the entire world, including all people except Noah and the seven people on the Ark with him.

If you are just relying on actual body count then ok. I cant argue a fact such as that.

What else makes it worse?

The average life expectancy in the 17th century was only 39 years. Is that better?

 

[HankD]

The corpses were stacked to the sky. In the USA in the 20th century there must have been 30 million abortions due to the government removing due process from the unborn child and saying in effect that the unborn child was not a human being in spite of the scientific evidence to the contrary.

What "facts" were /are offered by the government that an unborn child is not a human being?

HankD

 

[church mouse guy]

What "facts" were /are offered by the government that an unborn child is not a human being?

HankD

There is no due process for the unborn child. Thurgood Marshall and others said that it was up to the mother. It is an echo of the Dred Scott case,

 

[church mouse guy]

If you are just relying on actual body count then ok. I cant argue a fact such as that.

What else makes it worse?

The average life expectancy in the 17th century was only 39 years. Is that better?

You have made some excellent points. My generation--more or less the silent generation (those born during the Great Depression)--trusted big government. It was a mistake. Big government destroys prosperity and freedom. Not only did the American government legalize abortion, but it also ran a deficit and a debt since 1932 with no end in sight. Indeed, it is likely that the American government will default on the national debt. American intellectuals are money-lovers who have no conscience and engage in endless lies to feather their own nests. They are not the best and the brightest but they are the most ruthless. In summary, the American government is just as bloody as all of the other nations of the world when it comes to slaughtering the unborn children.