Is Baptism essential for salvation

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Is your vocabulary limited to only one definition for the word 'for'? There are many definitions for that word. Note the ones I bolded for you.

From Dictionary.com:

for

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Well since we're not limited let's use # 28 and get baptized in spite of the remission of sins or # 21 in order to become the remission of sins.

 

[Darron Steele]

First, John 3:16-8 spoken by Jesus Christ regarding Himself
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|: he that believeth not hath been |condemned| already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God” (ASV with |TNIV|).

My beliefs are not contrary to this scripture at all. My views are simply that belief in Jesus alone does not save us, which does to you sound contrary to what Jesus is saying. ...

You are right that your view does "sound contrary to what Jesus is saying" -- because it is!

You are saying that even if someone is a believer, s/he might still be condemned. That is a direct contradiction -- we cannot have "Whoever believeth on him is not condemned" and `Not whoever believeth on him is not condemned' simultaneously.

You have quoted from James 2 before. I have already said that the passage describes genuine faith. James 2:18b says it well: “I will show you my faith by my works” (NASB). A real believer will act like it. This teaching does not negate the above.

Acts 10:43, spoken by Peter,
"To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV).
The passages state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemntation and guarantees remission of sins. Your position, contrary to these passages, seems to be `If a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ never gets baptized, s/he will not be saved, will not get remission of sins, and is condemned.'

I think all that I said above applies here also. I just want to add that for a person to believe in Jesus he must accept and do all that he says and all that his apostles say to do because he sent them. Belief doesn't just stop at saying "I believe in Jesus and accept him in my life", it constitutes an action. So if I believe in Jesus I will repent, and be baptized ...

Right -- you will, because YOU KNOW TO. You also had opportunity to be baptized. I did too; I am a baptized believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. I will go this far with you: I think that a person who knows rightly about baptism and resists being baptized is an unbeliever.

Still, you seem to be wanting to change the definition of "believe" to mean "believe and do." If a person could instantly be baptized in water the very instant that s/he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, I might agree with you some. The problem is that actions subsequent to belief are distinct from belief. It is that simple. If a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, s/he will seek to do all that s/he knows to do and can do -- but those actions are still distinct from belief.

Acts 10:43 has "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV). It does not matter how well they did living within such faith. Everyone that has such faith "shall receive remission of sins." However, you say `Only those who know to get baptized properly and are able to do so shall receive remission of sins.' In other words, you say `It is not true that everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins,' a direct contradiction to Acts 10:43.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Buy yourself a good dictionary. Remission means more that pardon or forgiveness.

re·mis·sion

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", "6"); Audio Help /rɪˈmɪʃ

ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-mish-uh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the act of remitting. 2.pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses. 3.abatement or diminution, as of diligence, labor, intensity, etc. 4.the relinquishment of a payment, obligation, etc. 5.Medicine/Medical. a.a temporary or permanent decrease or subsidence of manifestations of a disease. b.a period during which such a decrease or subsidence occurs: The patient's leukemia was in remission.

We can find the definition directly related to the scripture found in the greek concordance 859- freedom (fig) pardon-deliverance,forgiveness, liberty, remission

 

[Darron Steele]

]

See Darron you said little words don't have to be looked up.

For-in order to obtain, gain, or acquire; with the object or purpose of

So it is saying be baptized in order to obtain the remisssion of sins

Where did you get your definition of "for" from?

Written to username 2 Timothy 2:15

Is your vocabulary limited to only one definition for the word 'for'? There are many definitions for that word. Note the ones I bolded for you.

From Dictionary.com:

for

//

", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FF02%2FF0277100.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> Audio Help /fɔr; unstressed fər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr; unstressed fer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –preposition 1.with the object or purpose of: to run for exercise. 2.intended to belong to, or be used in connection with: equipment for the army; a closet for dishes. 3.suiting the purposes or needs of: medicine for the aged. 4.in order to obtain, gain, or acquire: a suit for alimony; to work for wages. 5.(used to express a wish, as of something to be experienced or obtained): O, for a cold drink! 6.sensitive or responsive to: an eye for beauty. 7.desirous of: a longing for something; a taste for fancy clothes. 8.in consideration or payment of; in return for: three for a dollar; to be thanked for one's efforts. 9.appropriate or adapted to: a subject for speculation; clothes for winter. 10.with regard or respect to: pressed for time; too warm for April. 11.during the continuance of: for a long time. 12.in favor of; on the side of: to be for honest government. 13.in place of; instead of: a substitute for butter. 14.in the interest of; on behalf of: to act for a client. 15.in exchange for; as an offset to: blow for blow; money for goods. 16.in punishment of: payment for the crime. 17.in honor of: to give a dinner for a person. 18.with the purpose of reaching: to start for London. 19.contributive to: for the advantage of everybody. 20.in order to save: to flee for one's life. 21.in order to become: to train recruits for soldiers. 22.in assignment or attribution to: an appointment for the afternoon; That's for you to decide. 23.such as to allow of or to require: too many for separate mention. 24.such as results in: his reason for going. 25.as affecting the interests or circumstances of: bad for one's health. 26.in proportion or with reference to: He is tall for his age. 27.in the character of; as being: to know a thing for a fact. 28.by reason of; because of: to shout for joy; a city famed for its beauty. 29.in spite of: He's a decent guy for all that. 30.to the extent or amount of: to walk for a mile. 31.(used to introduce a subject in an infinitive phrase): It's time for me to go. 32.(used to indicate the number of successes out of a specified number of attempts): The batter was 2 for 4 in the game. –conjunction 33.seeing that; since. 34.because. —Idiom35.for it, British. in (def. 33).

Well, evidently StandingFirmInChrist knows multiple meanings of the word "for" in common usage -- including ones not conducive to your case. StandingfirminChrist did not need to look up that word.

Perhaps on elementary school-level words, you should simply read the dictionary rather than quote it to us. As has been demonstrated to you multiple times, you are apparently the only one that needs it. Please stop wasting our time by claiming that words we have known the meanings of since we were in elementary school do not have all those meanings. Even children would be expected to know better.

Frankly, if you need the dictionary on elementary school-level words, you probably have trouble with reading the Bible in English with understanding. You might want to put an end to your trivial dictionary uses. That is a friendly suggestion.

 

[Amy.G]

2 Tim., I am puzzled by your statement of salvation in your profile. You say:

"If and only I am born again".

What exactly does that mean?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

if water baptism was necessary for a person to be saved, then Jesus lied to the thief who was not saved before looking on Christ on the cross.

He was not baptized with water and yet Jesus promised he would be with Him in paradise that day.

Now, I am not brave enough to accuse my Lord and Savior of lying as some may be, but He clearly saved the thief while on the cross. Also, the crowd in Acts 10 were saved prior to Baptism, not before.

 

[Darron Steele]

if water baptism was necessary for a person to be saved, then Jesus lied to the thief who was not saved before looking on Christ on the cross.

He was not baptized with water and yet Jesus promised he would be with Him in paradise that day.

Now, I am not brave enough to accuse my Lord and Savior of lying as some may be, but He clearly saved the thief while on the cross. Also, the crowd in Acts 10 were saved prior to Baptism, not before.

-- I assume you meant "after" or the likes of that.

This is commonly answered with what is called "exception theology." Examples in Scripture that are not conducive to the position being espoused are labeled "exceptions" and dismissed as irrelevant.

Of course, Acts 10:43-8 was hardly an exception to be dismissed. It was a precedent. The New Testament-era church did not dismiss it as an "exception" -- they made a major decision based upon it in Acts 15.

 

[TCGreek]

This is called "exception theology." Examples in Scripture that are not conducive to the position being espoused are labeled "exceptions" and dismissed as irrelevant.

Of course, Acts 10:43-8 was hardly an exception to be dismissed. It was a precedent. The New Testament-era church did not dismiss it as an "exception" -- they made a major decision based upon it in Acts 15.

I see that too!

 

[Zenas]

So how do you interpret this verse to mean baptism is part of salvation, when it does not say that. In fact, it says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Amy, I said in an earlier post that there were other more subtle references to baptismal regeneration than the five I cited. You have just found one of these in Ephesians 1:13--"sealed by the Holy Spirit" is a reference to baptism.

 

[Zenas]

I do not care what any "Church Father" thought about that part of John 3:3-6 -- especially if they are as late as Justin Martyr and afterward.

I am interested in what was being communicated by Jesus to Nicodemus at John 3:3-6. As ancient Hebrews, they would have meant and understood this conversation in ancient Hebrew meanings. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Augustine were not ancient Hebrews -- they were Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking people from outside Palestine, and all wrote well over 100 years after this conversation.

Uhh, I thought the Gospel According To John was written in Greek.

 

[Darron Steele]

Uhh, I thought the Gospel According To John was written in Greek.

The conversation was probably in Aramaic. Again, with improvements:

I do not care what any "Church Father" thought about that part of John 3:3-6 -- especially if they are as late as Justin Martyr and afterward.

I am interested in what was being communicated by Jesus to Nicodemus at John 3:3-6. As ancient Hebrews, they would have meant and understood this conversation in ancient Hebrew meanings.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Augustine were not ancient Hebrews -- they were Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking people from outside Palestine, and all wrote well over 100 years after this conversation. They likely had limited, if any, familiarity with ancient Hebrew norms at the time of Jesus.

The text does not mention baptism. It mentions "born again" referring to two births. One is of water, and one is of Spirit. Ancient Hebrews associated natural birth with the former.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I said in an earlier post that there were other more subtle references to baptismal regeneration than the five I cited. You have just found one of these in Ephesians 1:13--"sealed by the Holy Spirit" is a reference to baptism.

Yes. It is a reference to baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

You are right that your view does "sound contrary to what Jesus is saying" -- because it is!

You are saying that even if someone is a believer, s/he might still be condemned. That is a direct contradiction -- we cannot have "Whoever believeth on him is not condemned" and `Not whoever believeth on him is not condemned' simultaneously.

You have quoted from James 2 before. I have already said that the passage describes genuine faith. James 2:18b says it well: “I will show you my faith by my works” (NASB). A real believer will act like it. This teaching does not negate the above.

genuine faith? Should not everyone's faith be genuine? Shouldn't we all share the same faith? You don't think James was trying to bring everyone up to the same level of faith and to say that if you don't reach this level of faith with works your faith is dead ? Come on man

Right -- you will, because YOU KNOW TO. You also had opportunity to be baptized. I did too; I am a baptized believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. I will go this far with you: I think that a person who knows rightly about baptism and resists being baptized is an unbeliever.

Agreed

Still, you seem to be wanting to change the definition of "believe" to mean "believe and do." If a person could instantly be baptized in water the very instant that s/he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, I might agree with you some. The problem is that actions subsequent to belief are distinct from belief. It is that simple. If a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, s/he will seek to do all that s/he knows to do and can do -- but those actions are still distinct from belief.

Not changing the definition of believe but the definition of faith. Belief stays belief, and actions are the result of belief. But faith is the belief and the action together in one word, and they must cohere. Belief can exist without actions as you see the case of the devil, but in order for that belief to become faith the actions (works) must be there otherwise that belief is no better than the devil's belief.

Acts 10:43 has "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV). It does not matter how well they did living within such faith. Everyone that has such faith "shall receive remission of sins." However, you say `Only those who know to get baptized properly and are able to do so shall receive remission of sins.' In other words, you say `It is not true that everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins,' a direct contradiction to Acts 10:43.

Look this is the point I am trying to make concerning faith and belief... the scripture says "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sin" (acts 10:43)
Now the scripture also says that the devils believe. So it is obvious that acts 10:43 didn't expound on the subject and also that a distinction has to be made between the devils belief and everyone else's (if not then our belief deserves no greater reward than the devils which is condemnation). That distinction I found in James 2

Now concerning remission of sins I still believe remission of sins is through baptism

 

[Darron Steele]

Look this is the point I am trying to make concerning faith and belief... the scripture says "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sin" (acts 10:43)
Now the scripture also says that the devils believe. So it is obvious that acts 10:43 didn't expound on the subject and also that a distinction has to be made between the devils belief and everyone else's (if not then our belief deserves no greater reward than the devils which is condemnation). That distinction I found in James 2

Now concerning remission of sins I still believe remission of sins is through baptism

Then you would be wrong. Demons have no chance at salvation. They do not have the option of real faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. Humans do. If our salvation prospects and process was that of demons, well, we would fare better in a toaster. James's point in James 2 is that an idle `faith' is not a real faith.

"Belief stays belief, and actions are the result of belief. But faith is the belief and the action together in one word, and they must cohere" -- sorry, but the Greek typically translated "faith" and "believe" are variants of the same one Greek word. Actions that are motivated by faith are subsequent to belief and are separate from belief -- and are therefore not faith.

Acts 10:43 still says what it says: "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins."

 

[Zenas]

The text does not mention baptism. It mentions "born again" referring to two births. One is of water, and one is of Spirit. Ancient Hebrews associated natural birth with the former.

I'm not a scholar on ancient languages. I know a few Greek words, can read a little Latin and know nothing about Hebrew. So you may be right but I would like to see something to back up your assertion about natural birth being associated with water in ancient Hebrew. Meanwhile, here is what Dr. Thomas Constable of Dallas Theological Seminary says about it.

Another view proposed by many scholars is that "water' is an allusion to the amniotic fluid in which a fetus develops in its mother's womb. Other scholars see it as a euphemistic reference to the semen whthout which natural birth is impossible. In either case "water" refers to physical or natural birth while "spirit" refers to spiritual or supernatural birth. They claim that Jesus was saying that natural birth is not enough. One must also experience supernatural birth to enter the kingdom. However this use of "water" is unique in Scripture. Moreover it assumes that two births are in view whereas the construction of the Greek phrase favors one birth rather than two. If two were in view, there would normally be a repetition of the preposition before the second noun.

To be perfectly fair, Constable doesn't agree with my view either, that Jesus was speaking of water baptism, but he makes a pretty good case against this being a reference to natural childbirth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

‘Antitype’

In 1Pt.3:20-21, “The like figure-antitypon which now saves us” – the “antitype” – is “NOT”, ‘baptism’, “but”, is “the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. In context:

“(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit* (19) by which He … preached … (20) when once the longsuffering of God waited while the ark was being prepared; into which ark … eight people were safely brought through the flood. (21) That Antitype indeed that now saves us – a baptism NOT a washing of the body of dirt – but (the Antitype of) a good conscience (and) a satisfying answer toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ – IS HE WHO is at the right hand of God having gone into heaven where (even) angels, authorities and powers are His subjects (now).” * “Declared the Son of God … to the Spirit of Holiness.”

 

[trustitl]

The text does not mention baptism. It mentions "born again" referring to two births. One is of water, and one is of Spirit.

Right on! :thumbs:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Gerhard,

Please edit these words into little bit bigger, so, I can read it better, even, probably, some people seem have hard time to read small sentences. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Look this is the point I am trying to make concerning faith and belief... the scripture says "everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sin" (acts 10:43)
Now the scripture also says that the devils believe. So it is obvious that acts 10:43 didn't expound on the subject and also that a distinction has to be made between the devils belief and everyone else's (if not then our belief deserves no greater reward than the devils which is condemnation). That distinction I found in James 2

Now concerning remission of sins I still believe remission of sins is through baptism

Fortunately your opinion will no longer have to be responded to.

 

[FundamentalOnly!]

I go against the grain in regards to Baptism at my church, I do believe that Baptism saves you. With that said, I do believe that you are not able to be baptized or in the case of early Christians that believed and were murdered, they were saved by a Baptism of desire. If we have the ability to be Baptized then we should. Just my 2 cents.





Acts 2:38
[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 22:16

[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'


Rom .6:3
[3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death



John 3:5

[3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
[5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Mark 16:16
[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


1 Peter 3:21

[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,