Is Baptism the New Circumcision?

[The Biblicist]

I have answered your questions. You think you can say anything you want. You speak nonsense.
Again, you do not know me, and you sure do not know God.

You are lying! Just three posts back you said you would answer them if I answered your two questions. That was an admission that you have not answered my questions to that point. I answered both your questions and you have yet to answer my questions. You attempted to change God's Word from "reward" to "praise." You refused to acknowledge that this command could be obeyed by Christians and thus REWARDED as "works" on judgement day!

You are lying when you say you have answered my questions. Produce the post that answered them? I dare you!

 

[Moriah]

You are lying! Just three posts back you said you would answer them if I answered your two questions. I answered them both and you have yet to answer my questions. You attempted to change God's Word from "reward" to "praise." You refused to acknowledge that this command could be obeyed by Christians and thus REWARDED as "works" on judgement day!

You are lying when you say you have answered my questions. Produce the post that answered them? I dare you!

What good is it to show a blind man?

 

[The Biblicist]

What good is it to show a blind man?

It is the blind man that lies and you constantly lie! A tree is known by its fruit and what kind of tree produces the fruit of lies?

 

[The Biblicist]

You are lying! Just three posts back you said you would answer them if I answered your two questions. That was an admission that you have not answered my questions to that point. I answered both your questions and you have yet to answer my questions. You attempted to change God's Word from "reward" to "praise." You refused to acknowledge that this command could be obeyed by Christians and thus REWARDED as "works" on judgement day!

You are lying when you say you have answered my questions. Produce the post that answered them? I dare you!

Can you obey "thou shalt not commit murder"?

Does God say he rewards "every man according to HIS WORKS" whether they be good or bad?

Is Disobedience a "bad" work?

Therefore, is not obedience a "good" work? If not, then what in the world is "good" works on judgement day if they are not the opposite of bad works = disobedience to His commandments???

Simple questions you will not answer. There are only two possible options on judgment day -

DISOBEDIENCE to his commandments = "evil works"
OBEDIENCE to his commandments = "good works"

Can anyone OBEY this commandment?

 

[Moriah]

It is the blind man that lies and you constantly lie! A tree is known by its fruit and what kind of tree produces the fruit of lies?

You just keep saying any lies you want.
Again, you do not know me and you sure do not know God.

 

[Moriah]

Can you obey "thou shalt not commit murder"?

Does God say he rewards "every man according to HIS WORKS" whether they be good or bad?

Is Disobedience a "bad" work?

Therefore, is not obedience a "good" work? If not, then what in the world is "good" works on judgement day if they are not the opposite of bad works = disobedience to His commandments???

Simple questions you will not answer. There are only two possible options on judgment day -

DISOBEDIENCE to his commandments = "evil works"
OBEDIENCE to his commandments = "good works"

Can anyone OBEY this commandment?

I have already explained it to you enough times.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have already explained it to you enough times.

You don't know the difference between "explaining" and "denying"! All you have done is DENIED that obedience to this command will be rewarded just like obedience to any command will be rewarded on the day of judgement. You are denying that obedience to this command is a "work of the law" even though it is obvious it is part of the Mosaic law as it is one of the ten commandments and it is obvious that obedience to this commandment or any commandment will be regarded as "works" on judgement day either a DISOBEDIENT work or an OBEDIENT work, one being "good" and the other being "evil."

 

[Moriah]

You don't know the difference between "explaining" and "denying"! All you have done is DENIED that obedience to this command will be rewarded just like obedience to any command will be rewarded on the day of judgement. You are denying that obedience to this command is a "work of the law" even though it is obvious it is part of the Mosaic law as it is one of the ten commandments and it is obvious that obedience to this commandment or any commandment will be regarded as "works" on judgement day either a DISOBEDIENT work or an OBEDIENT work, one being "good" and the other being "evil."

Your way of debating is to call names, slander, lie, and deny. It is everything you accused me of it is what you are.

 

[Moriah]

No studying books after books helped you to know God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your way of debating is to call names, slander, lie, and deny. It is everything you accused me of it is what you are.

YOU are the one who started the accusing and name calling and you started it when I caught you lying. You claimed you already answered my questions and I pointed out that just three posts back you acknowledge you had not answered my questions by saying that you WOULD answer my questions if I first answered yours. I did answer yours and YOU NEVER answered my questions. When I caught you lying you started name calling;

 

[The Biblicist]

YOU are the one who started the accusing and name calling and you started it when I caught you lying. You claimed you already answered my questions and I pointed out that just three posts back you acknowledge you had not answered my questions by saying that you WOULD answer my questions if I first answered yours. I did answer yours and YOU NEVER answered my questions. When I caught you lying you started name calling;

Forget it! If you cannot be honest enough to admit that obedience to God's commandments is rewared as "good works" on judgement day then you will not admit anything you are wrong about and a person that will not confess when they are wrong does not know what Biblical repentance is!

 

[DHK]

How do you think you will be regenerated if you do not obey.

One is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Obedience to the law condemns one to Hell.
Neither the law nor good works, nor obedience can save.
The adherence to a pattern of obedience in one's life is simply reformation.
Reformation does not save; regeneration saves.
If all you have is reformation you are not saved.

 

[Moriah]

One is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Give scripture and explain what you think that means.

Obedience to the law condemns one to Hell.
Neither the law nor good works, nor obedience can save.

Show from scripture that obedience cannot save.

The adherence to a pattern of obedience in one's life is simply reformation.

Use scripture. Show me from the scripture that obedience is “reformation.”

Reformation does not save; regeneration saves.

If you really know what regeneration means, and your false man made teachings about reformation, then explain further.

 

[DHK]

Give scripture and explain what you think that means.

I said: "One is regenerated by the Holy Spirit."

To be regenerated means to be born again. It is the new birth, or being born from above. Let me quote to you two Greek Scholars:

From A.T. Robertson:
Except a man be born anew (ean mê tis gennêthêi anôthen). Another condition of the third class, undetermined but with prospect of determination. First aorist passive subjunctive of gennaô. Anôthen. Originally "from above" (Mr 15:38), then "from heaven" (Joh 3:31), then "from the first" (Lu 1:3), and then "again" (palin anôthen, Ga 4:9). Which is the meaning here? The puzzle of Nicodemus shows (deuteron, verse Joh 3:4) that he took it as "again," a second birth from the womb. The Vulgate translates it by renatus fuerit denuo. But the misapprehension of Nicodemus does not prove the meaning of Jesus. In the other passages in John (Joh 3:31; 19:11,23) the meaning is "from above" (desuper) and usually so in the Synoptics. It is a second birth, to be sure, regeneration, but a birth from above by the Spirit. He cannot see the kingdom of God (ou dunatai idein tên basileian tou theou).

From Vincent's Word Studies:
In favor of the rendering from above, it is urged that it corresponds to John's habitual method of describing the work of spiritual regeneration as a birth from God (Joh_1:13; 1Jo_3:9; 1Jo_4:7; 1Jo_5:1, 1Jo_5:4, 1Jo_5:8); and further, that it is Paul, and not John, who describes it as a new birth. In favor of the other rendering, again, it may be said: 1. that from above does not describe the fact but the nature of the new birth, which in the logical order would be stated after the fact, but which is first announced if we render from above. If we translate anew or again, the logical order is preserved, the nature of the birth being described in Joh_3:5. 2. That Nicodemus clearly understood the word as meaning again, since, in Joh_3:4, he translated it into a second time. 3. That it seems strange that Nicodemus should have been startled by the idea of a birth from heaven.
Canon Westcott calls attention to the traditional form of the saying in which the word ἀναγεννᾶσθαι, which can only mean reborn, is used as its equivalent. Again, however, does not give the exact force of the word, which is rather as Rev., anew, or afresh. Render, therefore, as Rev., except a man be born anew. The phrase occurs only in John's Gospel.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In John 3, Jesus says three times: You must be born again.
In verse 6 he speaks of two types of birth, one of the flesh and one of the spirit:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
--We are all born of the flesh; but not everyone is born of the Spirit, hence the necessity of the new birth.

In verse 5 he states the agency by which a man is born anew:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--He is born again of the Spirit of God. That fact cannot be ignored.
The water may symbolize different things:
Here are different ways evangelicals interpret it:
1. the amniotic fluid to give a consistent picture of being born of the flesh.
2. rendering the word "and" as "even" and water as "spirit," hence "spirit, even the Spirit."
3. Scriptural evidence that "water" is a symbol representing the "Word of God," as it is used in 1Pet.1:23.
"Being born of God through the word of God."
The latter is the position that I take.
The RCC position is that it refers to baptism which is heresy.

Whatever the case may be one is born again of the Spirit. No one can deny that. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God.

Show from scripture that obedience cannot save.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

--It is impossible to keep the law. That is what Paul is showing here.
It is impossible to keep OT law, or NT law. Which is harder? NT law is harder than OT law to keep. OT law is external. NT law is not only external but it is internal which is much more difficult. It is the hardest form of obedience that there is. It is a battlefield that exists in the mind.

Even in this verse, let me draw you a diagram, as I have done before.
To "continue in all things that are written in the law to do them" would represent an unbroken line without break from birth to death like this:

Birth_________________________________________Death.

(Perfect continuation without break)
If you sin but once the line would look like the one below:

Birth__________________________ __________________Death.

Only one sin in one lifetime = eternal condemnation.
But in reality our life is represented by the line below:

Birth..........................................................................Death.
It has just as many breaks as it does lines.
We sin every day, whether or not we like to admit it.

"He that continues not in all thing written in the book to do them is cursed.
We are cursed because we obey all the time. We sin, and sin and sin. We can't practice sinless perfection. We disobey. We can't keep obeying; we don't obey. We fail, falter, sin, err, stray, etc. We are feeble and cannot measure up to the commands of God. We do not obey.

Use scripture. Show me from the scripture that obedience is “reformation.”

Reformation, like trinity, is just a word to describe a concept.
God had called all of his chosen ones together in Leviticus. At the end of the book he spends a number of chapters giving them detailed instructions, laws, etc. He concludes by saying:

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
A few verse before that he had said unto them:
Leviticus 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
--This is the only place this word is used in the Bible. He is talking to his people, but it is not speaking of salvation. One does not gain salvation by reformation. Reformation is correction, discipline. It applies to the believer to change his ways. If an unbeliever simply changes his ways he has accomplished nothing. The Holy Spirit must change him. He must be regenerated.

If you really know what regeneration means, and your false man made teachings about reformation, then explain further.

I have explained to you about regeneration.
Most of the religions of the world have religions of reformation--doing better. That is the system of Alcoholics Anonymous, isn't it? He will make amends, reform his life, do better. Doing better won't (or reformation) do. It will send you to hell. Only Jesus can save.

 

[Moriah]

I said: "One is regenerated by the Holy Spirit."

To be regenerated means to be born again. It is the new birth, or being born from above. Let me quote to you two Greek Scholars:

I asked you to quote scripture. I do not care about the scholars you want to quote. I am not debating them, we are debating.

--He is born again of the Spirit of God. That fact cannot be ignored.

God chooses whom He will cause to be renewed, born again, by the Holy Spirit.

The water may symbolize different things:
Here are different ways evangelicals interpret it:
1. the amniotic fluid to give a consistent picture of being born of the flesh.
2. rendering the word "and" as "even" and water as "spirit," hence "spirit, even the Spirit."
3. Scriptural evidence that "water" is a symbol representing the "Word of God," as it is used in 1Pet.1:23.
"Being born of God through the word of God."
The latter is the position that I take.
The RCC position is that it refers to baptism which is heresy.

How do you think being born of God through the word of God works?

Whatever the case may be one is born again of the Spirit. No one can deny that. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit gives us a new birth. The Holy Spirit renews us. He cleans us with Jesus’ blood. He sanctifies us, separates us and makes us holy. He cleans us from a guilty conscience and washes our bodies

I said, “Show from scripture that obedience cannot save.”

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

--It is impossible to keep the law.

It is impossible to keep the law and still be living! The law has a sentence of death.

That is what Paul is showing here.
It is impossible to keep OT law, or NT law.

NO. It is not impossible to keep the New Testament law. It is the perfect law see James 1:25.

Which is harder? NT law is harder than OT law to keep. OT law is external. NT law is not only external but it is internal which is much more difficult. It is the hardest form of obedience that there is. It is a battlefield that exists in the mind.

You are wrong.

Jesus says his work is light and easy.

Go look at Leviticus. Go read all the works the Jews had to do just to worship God.

The Burnt Offering. The Grain Offering. The Fellowhip Offering. The Sin Offering. The Guilt Offering. Dietary Laws. Purification After Childbirth. Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases. Cleansing From Mildew. Discharges Causing Uncleanness. The Day of Atonement. Rules for Priests. The Sabbath. Firstfruits. The Passover and Unleavened Bread. Feast of Weeks. Feast of Trumpets. Feast of Tabernacles. Oil and Bread Set Before the LORD. The Sabbath Year. The Year of Jubilee.

Again, you are wrong. The Jews had to do these things just to worship God. We do not have to do those works of the law!

We sin every day, whether or not we like to admit it.

Stop accusing.

"He that continues not in all thing written in the book to do them is cursed.
We are cursed because we obey all the time. We sin, and sin and sin. We can't practice sinless perfection. We disobey. We can't keep obeying; we don't obey. We fail, falter, sin, err, stray, etc. We are feeble and cannot measure up to the commands of God. We do not obey.

You need to start obeying!

Reformation, like trinity, is just a word to describe a concept.

Do not use men’s words. Use God’s words.

God had called all of his chosen ones together in Leviticus. At the end of the book he spends a number of chapters giving them detailed instructions, laws, etc. He concludes by saying:

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
A few verse before that he had said unto them:
Leviticus 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
--This is the only place this word is used in the Bible. He is talking to his people, but it is not speaking of salvation. One does not gain salvation by reformation. Reformation is correction, discipline. It applies to the believer to change his ways. If an unbeliever simply changes his ways he has accomplished nothing.

Are you kidding, a person could be cut off for not obeying God.

The Holy Spirit must change him. He must be regenerated.

Again, you do not show full knowledge of what that means.

The Holy Spirit makes us holy before God.

The Holy Spirit washes us.

We have rebirth we are born again.

We are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

We are called to a holy life see 2 Timothy 1:9.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God, we are the children of God see Romans 8:14.

We are light in the Lord. We are to live as children of light. See Ephesians 5:8.

I have explained to you about regeneration.
Most of the religions of the world have religions of reformation--doing better. That is the system of Alcoholics Anonymous, isn't it? He will make amends, reform his life, do better. Doing better won't (or reformation) do. It will send you to hell. Only Jesus can save.

I do not know what Alcoholics Anonymous teaches.

The one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, makes us holy.

We purify OURSELVES by obeying the truth.See 1 Peter 1:22.

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

We have the words of God in our minds and hearts. We obey His Word and are transformed.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will

We MUST be OBEDIENT.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.

How are you living your new life?

 

[DHK]

I asked you to quote scripture. I do not care about the scholars you want to quote. I am not debating them, we are debating.

Can't you see past the end of the noses' of the scholars? I quoted you plenty of Scripture. Or are you just too lazy to read?

God chooses whom He will cause to be renewed, born again, by the Holy Spirit.

There is that good old Calvinism spirit in you. He does, and before the foundation of the world.

How do you think being born of God through the word of God works?

1. John 3:5 Being born again of water and of the Spirit.
There are two and only two agents by which a person is born again.
One is the Holy Spirit; the other is what "water" represents.
In John 15:3, Jesus said, "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." The Word is a cleansing agent. It cleanses us spiritually. See also Psalm 119:11.
In 1Pet.1:23 "being born again of the word of God."
The Bible declares in two separate passages that we are born again by the Spirit of God and by the Word of God. It also equates the Word of God to water or cleansing, thus water represents the Word.
One cannot be saved without the Spirit or without the Word.
It is the gospel which one must hear in order to be saved. The Holy Spirit works through His Word to bring a person to faith in Christ. That is when regeneration takes place.

The Holy Spirit gives us a new birth. The Holy Spirit renews us. He cleans us with Jesus’ blood. He sanctifies us, separates us and makes us holy. He cleans us from a guilty conscience and washes our bodies

You just repeated what I said. Did I say anything different?

It is impossible to keep the law and still be living! The law has a sentence of death.

Therefore it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience. Obedience has a sentence of death. Obedience is simply keeping the law. There is a law of the OT and a law of the NT, the law of Christ. No man can keep either one perfectly. If you think you can get to heaven by obedience you cannot not. As you said you have the sentence of death upon yourself.

NO. It is not impossible to keep the New Testament law. It is the perfect law see James 1:25.

Yes it is a perfect law, so perfect and complete that you cannot keep it. No man can. It shows you how short of God's glory you are. You are a sinner according to God's perfect law; found condemned and guilty before a just and holy God. That is why Christ had to die.

You are wrong.

Jesus says his work is light and easy.

Go look at Leviticus. Go read all the works the Jews had to do just to worship God.

The Burnt Offering. The Grain Offering. The Fellowhip Offering. The Sin Offering. The Guilt Offering. Dietary Laws. Purification After Childbirth. Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases. Cleansing From Mildew. Discharges Causing Uncleanness. The Day of Atonement. Rules for Priests. The Sabbath. Firstfruits. The Passover and Unleavened Bread. Feast of Weeks. Feast of Trumpets. Feast of Tabernacles. Oil and Bread Set Before the LORD. The Sabbath Year. The Year of Jubilee.

Again, you are wrong. The Jews had to do these things just to worship God. We do not have to do those works of the law!

I didn't say we had to keep those laws. I asked which law is it easier to live under: OT or NT? In many aspects it is more difficult (albeit more rewarding) to live under NT law.
You say you obey Christ and the NT law, but you don't.
You don't go to church.
You despise being taught by teachers and pastors under the authority of the local church.
You deny the command of Jesus in giving the Great Commission.
In fact you don't even believe you need to obey the Great Commission.
There are many commands related to our speech and conversation which you disobey every day.
--Let your conversation be seasoned with grace, always.
--By your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned.
--Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, and evil speaking, with all malice be put away from among you; and be ye kind one to another, forgiving one another, even as Christ's sake has forgiven you.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--as well as the two Great Commandments that Jesus gave.

Do you keep all these commands. I don't think so.

It is much easier to keep outward observances such as sacrifices and offerings then to "bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."

Stop accusing.

I expounded Scripture. Do you have a guilty conscience?

You need to start obeying!

I was explaining Gal.3:10. Can you "continue to do all things that are written in the law (from birth to death)? If not you are cursed.

Do not use men’s words. Use God’s words.

:laugh: From here on in, I will expect you to use the KJV only. Restrict your language and vocabulary to the Bible.

Are you kidding, a person could be cut off for not obeying God.

Could be. But not for the law that I mentioned. Out of all the laws of Israel there were only a few that ended up with the death penalty.

Again, you do not show full knowledge of what that means.

The Holy Spirit makes us holy before God.

The Holy Spirit washes us.

We have rebirth we are born again.

We are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

We are called to a holy life see 2 Timothy 1:9.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God, we are the children of God see Romans 8:14.

We are light in the Lord. We are to live as children of light. See Ephesians 5:8.

I simply said: The Holy Spirit must change a person; he must be regenerated.
What has all of the above got to do with any of what I have said? I wasn't expounding on that one statement.

I do not know what Alcoholics Anonymous teaches.

The one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

You asked about reformation. Reformation is from the flesh. It is good works. It doesn't necessarily involve the Spirit. What has all this Scripture to do with it. That is why I quoted to you AA, and referred all the religions of the world as examples.

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And if they try to change on their own that is reformation.
But they need regeneration, not reformation. That is what I originally said.

Again, the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, makes us holy.

We purify OURSELVES by obeying the truth.See 1 Peter 1:22.

1 Peter 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

We have the words of God in our minds and hearts. We obey His Word and are transformed.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will

We MUST be OBEDIENT.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.

How are you living your new life?

Not by reformation but by regeneration. Do you understand the difference yet? If not I would question your salvation. A new life in Christ does not come through obedience. It comes through faith in Christ, faith and faith alone.

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

 

[Moriah]

Can't you see past the end of the noses' of the scholars? I quoted you plenty of Scripture. Or are you just too lazy to read?

Wow. I already told you why I did not read what your scholars said, but you just want to throw in some false accusations.

There is that good old Calvinism spirit in you. He does, and before the foundation of the world.

A house divided against itself will not stand. How many times have I told you I am not a Calvinist? I go against Calvinism.

You just have to accuse in just about everything you say. It is just that much a part of you.

There are two and only two agents by which a person is born again.
One is the Holy Spirit; the other is what "water" represents.
In John 15:3, Jesus said, "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you." The Word is a cleansing agent. It cleanses us spiritually. See also Psalm 119:11.
In 1Pet.1:23 "being born again of the word of God."

We are supposed to obey the Word of God that is how we are transformed.

It is the gospel which one must hear in order to be saved. The Holy Spirit works through His Word to bring a person to faith in Christ. That is when regeneration takes place.

Renewal takes place when the person is saved they are born again.

Are you sinning with this new life, just as you did with your old life?

You just repeated what I said. Did I say anything different?

You are going to have to decide that for yourself.

Therefore it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience.

How do you get that deduction?

We are talking about the Old Testament and you jump to saying it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience. That is just nonsensical.

Obedience has a sentence of death.

Obedience does NOT have a sentence of death! lol

Obedience is simply keeping the law.

What are you saying?

We are to obey Jesus in the New Testament.

We are to stop sinning. We are to work out our salvation. IF we do sin, Jesus speaks to the Father in our defense.

There is a law of the OT and a law of the NT, the law of Christ. No man can keep either one perfectly.

Well, we cannot keep the Old Testament law. As for the New Testament law, we can keep it perfectly.

If you think you can get to heaven by obedience you cannot not. As you said you have the sentence of death upon yourself.

I am not under the Old Testament law.

Yes it is a perfect law, so perfect and complete that you cannot keep it. No man can. It shows you how short of God's glory you are.

That is what is said about the Old Testament law, not the New Testament.

You are a sinner according to God's perfect law; found condemned and guilty before a just and holy God. That is why Christ had to die.

Now you are going back to the Old Testament. You are confused.

I didn't say we had to keep those laws.

Where did I say you said we had to keep the Old Testament laws?

I asked which law is it easier to live under: OT or NT? In many aspects it is more difficult (albeit more rewarding) to live under NT law.

You go against Jesus. Jesus says his works are light and easy.

You say you obey Christ and the NT law, but you don't.

You can hardly get through a debate without your accusing nature lifting its head.

You don't go to church.
You despise being taught by teachers and pastors under the authority of the local church.
You deny the command of Jesus in giving the Great Commission.
In fact you don't even believe you need to obey the Great Commission.
There are many commands related to our speech and conversation which you disobey every day.

You do just as you leaders do…make us sins that are not sins, saying that Jesus said it, and you make up sins that I have not done here, as if you are a righteous judge.

--Let your conversation be seasoned with grace, always.
--By your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned.
--Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, and evil speaking, with all malice be put away from among you; and be ye kind one to another, forgiving one another, even as Christ's sake has forgiven you.

My conscience is clear. I would consider that accusing nature of yours though.

I expounded Scripture. Do you have a guilty conscience?

You just cannot help yourself.

I was explaining Gal.3:10. Can you "continue to do all things that are written in the law (from birth to death)? If not you are cursed.

You need to start obeying.

From here on in, I will expect you to use the KJV only. Restrict your language and vocabulary to the Bible.

When you want to debate doctrine, could you please use scriptural words?

Could be. But not for the law that I mentioned. Out of all the laws of Israel there were only a few that ended up with the death penalty.

A person would be cut off if they did not obey the Old Testament law.

I simply said: The Holy Spirit must change a person; he must be regenerated.

I will explain it to you again.

The Holy Spirit renews you. The Holy Spirit renewing you is what born again is, and it means you are given a new life.

Now, what are you going to do with that new life?

You must live it by offering your body as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).

You must PURIFY YOURSELF by obeying the truth.

You transform as you obey the Word of God.

You will become Christ like.

You asked about reformation. Reformation is from the flesh. It is good works. It doesn't necessarily involve the Spirit.

Wow. Why would a Christian do good works that do not involve the Spirit?!

And if they try to change on their own that is reformation.

What is that supposed to mean? Why would a Christian try to change on their own?!

We change by letting the Holy Spirit live through us.

But they need regeneration, not reformation. That is what I originally said.

Regeneration is when you are born again. How many times are you born again?
We are born again once.

We then live transforming into the likeness of Christ.

We do this by obeying the Truth.

Not by reformation but by regeneration. Do you understand the difference yet? If not I would question your salvation. A new life in Christ does not come through obedience. It comes through faith in Christ, faith and faith alone.

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

Therefore, you must think that God magically causes you to do right without your assistance. On the other hand, you have said to me many times that we do not have to obey ever and we will still be saved!

 

[DHK]

Wow. I already told you why I did not read what your scholars said, but you just want to throw in some false accusations.

What false accusation? The false accusations here, are all yours Moriah.
I said that you didn't bother to read past the quotes, if you are accusing me of not using Scripture, which is correct. Go back to the original post. Immediately after the quote by Vine, here is what I said:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In John 3, Jesus says three times: You must be born again.
In verse 6 he speaks of two types of birth, one of the flesh and one of the spirit:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
--We are all born of the flesh; but not everyone is born of the Spirit, hence the necessity of the new birth.

In verse 5 he states the agency by which a man is born anew:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--He is born again of the Spirit of God. That fact cannot be ignored.

But you don't read what I post. You just saw two quotes from scholars: Roberston and Vine, and that is all. May I suggest that you stop the false allegations and lies and start debating instead.

A house divided against itself will not stand. How many times have I told you I am not a Calvinist? I go against Calvinism.

Yet some of the things you post are very similar to one. You need to be in a local church under the authority of teachers and pastors.

We are supposed to obey the Word of God that is how we are transformed.

No, The work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration transforms.
Obedience doesn't transform a person, it reforms a person, like AA, or Islam, Hinduism, or like many drug addiction programs. They try to reform you--get you to obey their rules. Christianity is not about obedience. It is about faith in Christ.
I am saved by faith.
I walk by faith.
I live by faith.
My obedience comes because of a life lived by faith.

Renewal takes place when the person is saved they are born again.

Yes, I said that.

Are you sinning with this new life, just as you did with your old life?

You sin every day, as does everyone.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

How do you get that deduction?

We are talking about the Old Testament and you jump to saying it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience. That is just nonsensical.

I said it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience, and you say how do I get that deduction??????????
1. Because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, not obedience, but Jesus.
2. Because salvation is by faith in Christ, not obedience but faith in Christ.
3. Because Rom.5:1 states: Therefore being justified by faith (not obedience) we have peace with God.
4. Because the Bible also teaches:
For by grace are ye saved through faith... and not of works (not of obedience).

That is how I get that deduction. What you teach is contrary to the Bible.
I am not talking about the OT, was not talking of the OT, but salvation from the NT.

Obedience does NOT have a sentence of death! lol

I am only quoting your words. That is what you said isn't it?
What is obedience. There is no obedience if there is no law. There must be a law to obey or obedience is impossible. Thus the sentence of law is death, whether it be OT or NT.
The wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23). That is NT truth.

What are you saying?

We are to obey Jesus in the New Testament.

We are to stop sinning. We are to work out our salvation. IF we do sin, Jesus speaks to the Father in our defense.

Obeying Jesus means obeying the words of Jesus, the commands and laws of Jesus, the entire NT, the words that Jesus taught his apostles who wrote the NT.
Jesus doesn't speak to the Father on your behalf unless you are first saved, and second, unless you confess that sin to the Lord, as per 1John 1:9.
An obedient Christian will obey the NT, all of it--The two Great Commands of Christ, The Great Commission of Christ, become a member of a local church and be under the authority of their teachers and preachers, bring every thought, every imagination under captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ. Do you do all of that? That is just a very small part, maybe one percent of the commands of the NT.

Well, we cannot keep the Old Testament law. As for the New Testament law, we can keep it perfectly.

Then why don't you? You break it every day, just on this board alone.

I am not under the Old Testament law.

Are you qualified to live above the Ten Commandments except for the Sabbath Day. Did God give you permission to murder and commit adultery? You are above the law???

That is what is said about the Old Testament law, not the New Testament.

I never said you were. Here is what I said:

If you think you can get to heaven by obedience you cannot not. As you said you have the sentence of death upon yourself.

I said nothing about the OT. You cannot get to heaven by obedience. One gets to heaven through Jesus Christ. Christ saves.
Faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. That is what salvation is.

Now you are going back to the Old Testament. You are confused.

How can I be going back to the OT, when I quoted the same verse you did from James. That is not OT; but NT!!
Read again:
Yes it is a perfect law, so perfect and complete that you cannot keep it. No man can. It shows you how short of God's glory you are.
It is the law of Christ that is perfect. You can't keep it.

You go against Jesus. Jesus says his works are light and easy.

He was making a comparison. His yoke is easier compared to the yoke of bondage with sin. That is the teaching that Christ gave.

What I said is still true. And here it is again:
I asked which law is it easier to live under: OT or NT? In many aspects it is more difficult (albeit more rewarding) to live under NT law.

You can hardly get through a debate without your accusing nature lifting its head.

I only point out the truth you don't want to hear.
You sin every day. There is no such thing as entire sanctification.

You do just as you leaders do…make us sins that are not sins, saying that Jesus said it, and you make up sins that I have not done here, as if you are a righteous judge.

I am not making up anything. I teach the Bible. Here again, is what the Bible teaches (and you don't even care!!!) That is sad.

You don't go to church.
You despise being taught by teachers and pastors under the authority of the local church.
You deny the command of Jesus in giving the Great Commission.
In fact you don't even believe you need to obey the Great Commission.
There are many commands related to our speech and conversation which you disobey every day.

My conscience is clear. I would consider that accusing nature of yours though.

Are you sure. Do you keep ALL the commands of the NT? Really?

You need to start obeying.

I explained Gal.3:10 to you, even using diagrams. Do you believe it?
You cannot get through one day without sinning.

When you want to debate doctrine, could you please use scriptural words?

Yep. When you cannot limit yourself to the KJV I will start doing that. :smilewinkgrin:

A person would be cut off if they did not obey the Old Testament law.

Only in some cases.

I will explain it to you again.

The Holy Spirit renews you. The Holy Spirit renewing you is what born again is, and it means you are given a new life.

To be born again is to be regenerated. But it is not necessarily to be renewed. The Christian needs to be renewed on a day by day basis, but not to be born again and again and again. He is born again, but once in his life. He needs to be renewed daily.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Now, what are you going to do with that new life?

You must live it by offering your body as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).

You must PURIFY YOURSELF by obeying the truth.

You transform as you obey the Word of God.

You will become Christ like.

You can only do that if you have been regenerated. Transformation won't do it.

Wow. Why would a Christian do good works that do not involve the Spirit?!

Ask Muslims and Hindus. In fact ask Roman Catholics. You said you grew up as one. Don't they do any good works? I am sure they do. Many people do, but their good works won't get them to heaven.

 

[DHK]

What is that supposed to mean? Why would a Christian try to change on their own?!

We change by letting the Holy Spirit live through us.

Who said anything about a Christian. You can't become a Christian unless you are regenerated. A person becomes a Christian through regeneration not reformation. Keep on topic.

Regeneration is when you are born again. How many times are you born again?

Just once; are you having trouble staying on topic?

We are born again once.

We then live transforming into the likeness of Christ.

We do this by obeying the Truth.

So you admit you live by the flesh. If one is to be transformed to the likeness of Christ it must be done through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, you must think that God magically causes you to do right without your assistance. On the other hand, you have said to me many times that we do not have to obey ever and we will still be saved!

True. Because good works don't save.
How hard is it for you to understand Romans 5:1?

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
We are justified by faith; not by obedience.

 

[Moriah]

What false accusation? The false accusations here, are all yours Moriah.

You implied that I was lazy. You constantly debate with accusations. You cannot even reply to pointing out your accusations without you making another one.

Yet some of the things you post are very similar to one. You need to be in a local church under the authority of teachers and pastors.

Nothing I say is similar to Calvinism. You either really do not understand well, or you have a deceitful spirit.
You spent too much time in your church, and not enough time, or no time with the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

When I went to a local church weekly…I might have been indoctrinated too, but one must check on everything they are taught, even the stuff your preacher says that sounds nice.

No, The work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration transforms.

You are using your manufactured language again.

The Holy Spirit renews us that is being born again. We are not born again many after that. We are not born again every day, or many times a day.

Obedience doesn't transform a person, it reforms a person, like AA, or Islam, Hinduism, or like many drug addiction programs.

You compare the words of God Himself and obeying them, to the words of Islam, Hinduism, or drug addiction programs! This is a serious error on your part. God’s words are life.

They try to reform you--get you to obey their rules. Christianity is not about obedience. It is about faith in Christ.
I am saved by faith.
I walk by faith.
I live by faith.
My obedience comes because of a life lived by faith.

Faith without action is dead. How do you think you are being transformed? Do you think you are a robot when you get saved?

You sin every day, as does everyone.

Speak for yourself. If you are living your new life as you did your old life, then what good is your new birth?

I said it is impossible to get to heaven by obedience, and you say how do I get that deduction??????????

Did Satan get the kingdom of God by disobeying, how about Cane, the angels who left their post, how about Saul?
You speak great error when you speak against obedience.

1. Because Jesus said he is the only way to heaven, not obedience, but Jesus.
2. Because salvation is by faith in Christ, not obedience but faith in Christ.
3. Because Rom.5:1 states: Therefore being justified by faith (not obedience) we have peace with God.
4. Because the Bible also teaches:

Wow.

Luke 11:28 Jesus says, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 2:13.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

Luke 8:21 He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

OH HOW I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD!

Did you read all that DHK? Stop going against the Truth.

For by grace are ye saved through faith... and not of works (not of obedience).

That is more than enough to make the devil smile.

That is how I get that deduction. What you teach is contrary to the Bible.
I am not talking about the OT, was not talking of the OT, but salvation from the NT.

I just gave you many scriptures saying to obey. I can give you many more, as I have. You reject the Truth.

I am only quoting your words. That is what you said isn't it?
What is obedience. There is no obedience if there is no law. There must be a law to obey or obedience is impossible. Thus the sentence of law is death, whether it be OT or NT.

You are repeating the error of your leaders.

To say obedience is death is great error. Sin is what separates us from God. Adam and Eve were not obedient to God and look what happened.

An obedient Christian will obey the NT, all of it--The two Great Commands of Christ, The Great Commission of Christ, become a member of a local church and be under the authority of their teachers and preachers, bring every thought, every imagination under captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ. Do you do all of that? That is just a very small part, maybe one percent of the commands of the NT.

You being convinced that a person must join a local church come strongly from the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church teaches to miss a Mass is to sin.
As for bringing every though captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ, of course I do.

Then why don't you? You break it every day, just on this board alone.

Wow. You are not a trustworthy judge. You are a false accuser.

Are you qualified to live above the Ten Commandments except for the Sabbath Day. Did God give you permission to murder and commit adultery? You are above the law???

If I am not angry with my brother, how did I murder him?

You show how unknowledgeable you are when you say such things. How do you think to ask a person if God gave them permission to murder and commit adultery? Why would you speak in willful ignorance? What good can come from that? It makes you look bad.

I never said you were. Here is what I said:

If you think you can get to heaven by obedience you cannot not. As you said you have the sentence of death upon yourself.

I said nothing about the OT. You cannot get to heaven by obedience. One gets to heaven through Jesus Christ. Christ saves.
Faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. That is what salvation is.

Nonsense, for we have to obey Jesus. We eat from Jesus’ body every day, and we do that when we obey him. Every day we are to eat. Every day we are to obey him.

Yes it is a perfect law, so perfect and complete that you cannot keep it. No man can. It shows you how short of God's glory you are.
It is the law of Christ that is perfect. You can't keep it.

Of course, we can keep it. Even IF we sin, we keep it, for we confess with our mouth and are saved. That is the Word of God.

He was making a comparison. His yoke is easier compared to the yoke of bondage with sin. That is the teaching that Christ gave.

What I said is still true. And here it is again:
I asked which law is it easier to live under: OT or NT? In many aspects it is more difficult (albeit more rewarding) to live under NT law.

Again, Jesus says his work is light and easy. You speak opposite of what Jesus says.

To be born again is to be regenerated. But it is not necessarily to be renewed.

Regenerated is being renewed.

The Christian needs to be renewed on a day by day basis, but not to be born again and again and again. He is born again, but once in his life. He needs to be renewed daily.

You are mixing two different scriptures together that explain two different things.

The Holy Spirit renews us…that is we are given a new life.

Then we have renewing of our minds. That is when we have the words of Jesus in our minds…we are renewed, transformed, when we do what Jesus says. That is eating from Jesus. If you only hear and do not put to practice what you hear, then what good is that?

You can only do that if you have been regenerated. Transformation won't do it.

People who believe and obey Jesus receive the Holy Spirit. People who receive the Holy Spirit are given a new life they have a new birth. People who obey Jesus are being transformed to the likeness of Chris, by the renewing of the mind…all the teachings of Jesus for us to obey.

Ask Muslims and Hindus. In fact ask Roman Catholics. You said you grew up as one. Don't they do any good works? I am sure they do. Many people do, but their good works won't get them to heaven.

You did not answer the question, but instead you had willful or non-willful ignorance. I said, “Why would a Christian do good works that do not involve the Spirit?”