Is Baptism the New Circumcision?

[Wittenberger]

The credo-baptist positions stated by Biblicist, Michael Wren, Moriah, and Scarlett and others certainly seem like a plausible, reasonable interpretation of Scripture.

But Colossians 2:11-12 still troubles me.


Colossians 2:11-12
English Standard Version (ESV)

11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Here is how this verse literally reads to me:

1. We are circumcised into Christ by a circumcision made without hands.
2. God removes something from us (by putting off the body of the flesh)
3. God removes "this body of the flesh" in this circumcision made without hands.
4. This circumcision made without hands is Christ's circumcision, the Christian circumcision.
5. This Christ circumcision (Christian circumcision) occurs at the time of baptism
6. We are buried with Christ at the time of baptsim
7 We are also raised up in baptism by our faith in the power of God.

To me these verses say that baptism does not save. It is our faith in God at the time of our baptism that saves.

But to interpret the Greek word for baptism (baptisma) in these verses to mean anything other than "to dip/immerse in water" seems like a real over-reach. If the Greek word always means to dip/immerse in water, disallowing that sprinkling and pouring can be substituted, as valid alternatives , then how do Baptists justify interpreting "baptisma" as a baptism of the Holy Spirit?

If God says "baptism" he means water baptism unless He specifically states otherwise.

In the OT, circumcision did NOT save infants. But it was a sign of promise that God WOULD save them if they grew up and placed their personal faith in Him.

Jews in Jesus day were baptizing Gentile infants to bring them into the Jewish faith to worship the God of Abraham. This baptism did not save them, it just was a mark of promise.

Jesus and the disciples continue the practice of household conversion without any mention to the Jews that their children had to convert to the new faith in a different manner than what they had done in the old covenant.

There is no mention of infant baptism in the NT because it wasn't necessary. Everyone assumed that infants of believer's were brought into the New Covenant in the same way as in the Old Covenant.

In both convenants, the sign DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!

The infant is given the promise of salvation at the time of the sign, but then that child must fulfill his side of the covenant when he is older and place his faith and obedience in God. It is the individual's faith that saves him, not the "mark" or "sign" he received as an infant.

One criticism of credo-baptists is that when the Philippian jailer converted, that his whole house believed and praised God. It says nothing about infants.

But if I came to the home of the Wilson family (Mr. Wilson, Mrs. Wilson, John age 18, Mary age 12, Luke age 4, and Thomas age 1) and announced to them that they had just won a prize for alot of money. How would I record the event?

"I went to the house of the Wilson family today and told them that they had just won ten thousand dollars. They did not believe it at first, but when I showed them the cashier's check, they all believed, rejoiced and asked me to stay for dinner."

Or would I have said it this way:

"I went to the house of the Wilson family and told them that they had just won ten thousand dollars. The parents and older children did not believe me at first, and of course the 4 year old and the 1 year old did not understand me, but when I showed the older children and the parents the cashier's check, the parents and the older children who had reached an age of discernment, believed, rejoiced and asked me to stay for dinner."

So the statements by Luke, the writer of Acts, inspired by the Holy Spirit, do not give any support for the credo-baptist view that it was only the adults who were baptized. It just demonstrates that infants could be included without having to expressly exclude them in giving the details of what happened.

 

[billwald]

>However, when a believer is water baptized, it is a promise to God, a pledge, to die to the sins of the world and rise up to walk as Jesus did.

Then baptism, like talk, is cheap. This pledge and the regeneration it conveys is easily rejected?

 

[Moriah]

>However, when a believer is water baptized, it is a promise to God, a pledge, to die to the sins of the world and rise up to walk as Jesus did.

Then baptism, like talk, is cheap. This pledge and the regeneration it conveys is easily rejected?

A pledge to God is a serious matter. Go read about it in the Old Testament.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would be interested in your serious response to the above statements, Sister Scarlett. Do you agree that circumcision was an outward sign of an inward, spiritual grace?

NO, for it was the sign given by God to show in a physical tangable fashion that the child being circumcisedwas to be seen as being part of the "community of faith", under the Old Covenant relationship between god and isreal...

There was NO sacramental grace in the rite, as it just signified that the child or proysetite to isreal was part of the nation of the Covenant, but each jew so marked STILL had to become saved by grace of God!

So was performed on every Jewish male child, they still needdedto get saved by god, as NOT saved before or by that ritual!

NT water Baptism is indeed though the external outward sign of an interal work already done by God...

 

[Scarlett O.]

In the OT, circumcision did NOT save infants. But it was a sign of promise that God WOULD save them if they grew up and placed their personal faith in Him.

In the Old Testament, a man who was an adult and had never heard of God, but then found out about Him and wanted to make a committment to following Him could be circumcised.

But an adult today who desires to follow Christ, but was not raised in a home where Christ was preached cannot go back and be baptized as an infant. The infant baptism guarantees nothing. It isn't a sign that promises anything.

There are multitudes of infantly baptized non-beleivers who are now adults and scores of non-baptized believers.

When I read the account of the Philippian jailer, he specifically asked Paul what to do to receive salvation. Paul said faith in Christ and that the same rule applied for those who lived at his home. Then Paul and Silas preached to his household and the Bible said that they were glad that "they had put their faith in Christ". An infant cannot do that.

I attended church as an infant. I was there everytime the doors were opened. I had to be. My mother couldn't leave me alone. I was just along for the ride so-to-speak. But when I was 8 years old - the understanding of what my mother and father were doing in this "church" thing - this relationship with Christ thing - it clicked.

 

[Wittenberger]

It seems like I and my credo-baptist brothers and sisters are speaking past each other. I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this issue.

Bottom line is this: If you are Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, etc. and you believe that your infant baptism is your automatic ticket into heaven, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! If you are living a life of sin and disobedience to God, even though you were baptized, you may one day wake up in Hell!

Salvation has always been by God's grace, received through faith. Circumcision itself never saved anyone in the OT and baptism by itself has never saved anyone in the NT or today.

If you are living a life of sin, disobedient to God's will, REPENT now! Call out to Christ to forgive you of your sins, to be your Lord and Savior, and strive to follow his will for your life.

But, don't just repent and believe by faith in Christ today...do it everyday of your life!

You are not saved by baptism or any other work or good deed. You are saved by grace through faith. We orthodox Christians may believe that God gives the promise of salvation in infant baptism, but the realization/activation of the benefits of that promise (eternal life) does not occur until you turn to Christ as an adult or older child, place your faith in him, repent, and choose to follow him.

Without your personal faith in Christ as your Savior, and repentance, your baptsim has no significance other than getting wet!

Repent and believe by faith in Christ as your Savior!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The credo-baptist positions stated by Biblicist, Michael Wren, Moriah, and Scarlett and others certainly seem like a plausible, reasonable interpretation of Scripture.

But Colossians 2:11-12 still troubles me.


Colossians 2:11-12
English Standard Version (ESV)

11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Here is how this verse literally reads to me:

1. We are circumcised into Christ by a circumcision made without hands.
2. God removes something from us (by putting off the body of the flesh)
3. God removes "this body of the flesh" in this circumcision made without hands.
4. This circumcision made without hands is Christ's circumcision, the Christian circumcision.
5. This Christ circumcision (Christian circumcision) occurs at the time of baptism
6. We are buried with Christ at the time of baptsim
7 We are also raised up in baptism by our faith in the power of God.

To me these verses say that baptism does not save. It is our faith in God at the time of our baptism that saves.

But to interpret the Greek word for baptism (baptisma) in these verses to mean anything other than "to dip/immerse in water" seems like a real over-reach. If the Greek word always means to dip/immerse in water, disallowing that sprinkling and pouring can be substituted, as valid alternatives , then how do Baptists justify interpreting "baptisma" as a baptism of the Holy Spirit?

If God says "baptism" he means water baptism unless He specifically states otherwise.

In the OT, circumcision did NOT save infants. But it was a sign of promise that God WOULD save them if they grew up and placed their personal faith in Him.

Jews in Jesus day were baptizing Gentile infants to bring them into the Jewish faith to worship the God of Abraham. This baptism did not save them, it just was a mark of promise.

Jesus and the disciples continue the practice of household conversion without any mention to the Jews that their children had to convert to the new faith in a different manner than what they had done in the old covenant.

There is no mention of infant baptism in the NT because it wasn't necessary. Everyone assumed that infants of believer's were brought into the New Covenant in the same way as in the Old Covenant.

In both convenants, the sign DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!

The infant is given the promise of salvation at the time of the sign, but then that child must fulfill his side of the covenant when he is older and place his faith and obedience in God. It is the individual's faith that saves him, not the "mark" or "sign" he received as an infant.

One criticism of credo-baptists is that when the Philippian jailer converted, that his whole house believed and praised God. It says nothing about infants.

But if I came to the home of the Wilson family (Mr. Wilson, Mrs. Wilson, John age 18, Mary age 12, Luke age 4, and Thomas age 1) and announced to them that they had just won a prize for alot of money. How would I record the event?

"I went to the house of the Wilson family today and told them that they had just won ten thousand dollars. They did not believe it at first, but when I showed them the cashier's check, they all believed, rejoiced and asked me to stay for dinner."

Or would I have said it this way:

"I went to the house of the Wilson family and told them that they had just won ten thousand dollars. The parents and older children did not believe me at first, and of course the 4 year old and the 1 year old did not understand me, but when I showed the older children and the parents the cashier's check, the parents and the older children who had reached an age of discernment, believed, rejoiced and asked me to stay for dinner."

So the statements by Luke, the writer of Acts, inspired by the Holy Spirit, do not give any support for the credo-baptist view that it was only the adults who were baptized. It just demonstrates that infants could be included without having to expressly exclude them in giving the details of what happened.

"Made without hands" means just that -- spiritual baptism. "Made without hands" excludes water baptism because certainly water baptism is done with hands!

 

[Scarlett O.]

It seems like I and my credo-baptist brothers and sisters are speaking past each other. I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this issue.

Ah - enlightenment. :saint:

Let's do talk about something else. Stick around. Fellowship with us. We like you.

Salvation has always been by God's grace, received through faith. Circumcision itself never saved anyone in the OT and baptism by itself has never saved anyone in the NT or today.

:thumbs:

If you are living a life of sin, disobedient to God's will, REPENT now! Call out to Christ to forgive you of your sins, to be your Lord and Savior, and strive to follow his will for your life. But, don't just repent and believe by faith in Christ today...do it everyday of your life!

Preach it, brother!

You are not saved by baptism or any other work or good deed. You are saved by grace through faith. We orthodox Christians may believe that God gives the promise of salvation in infant baptism, but the realization/activation of the benefits of that promise (eternal life) does not occur until you turn to Christ as an adult or older child, place your faith in him, repent, and choose to follow him.

Without your personal faith in Christ as your Savior, and repentance, your baptsim has no significance other than getting wet!

Exactly! :flower: :flower:

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems like I and my credo-baptist brothers and sisters are speaking past each other. I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this issue.

Bottom line is this: If you are Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, etc. and you believe that your infant baptism is your automatic ticket into heaven, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! If you are living a life of sin and disobedience to God, even though you were baptized, you may one day wake up in Hell!

Salvation has always been by God's grace, received through faith. Circumcision itself never saved anyone in the OT and baptism by itself has never saved anyone in the NT or today.

If you are living a life of sin, disobedient to God's will, REPENT now! Call out to Christ to forgive you of your sins, to be your Lord and Savior, and strive to follow his will for your life.

But, don't just repent and believe by faith in Christ today...do it everyday of your life!

You are not saved by baptism or any other work or good deed. You are saved by grace through faith. We orthodox Christians may believe that God gives the promise of salvation in infant baptism, but the realization/activation of the benefits of that promise (eternal life) does not occur until you turn to Christ as an adult or older child, place your faith in him, repent, and choose to follow him.

Without your personal faith in Christ as your Savior, and repentance, your baptsim has no significance other than getting wet!

Repent and believe by faith in Christ as your Savior!

Don't think though either the RCC/Lutherymn church hold to that!

BOTH teach regeneration occurs by God in the rite of the water baptism!

BOTH teach that sacrament saves us, and places us into the 'community of faith/saved!"

 

[Wittenberger]

"Made without hands" means just that -- spiritual baptism. "Made without hands" excludes water baptism because certainly water baptism is done with hands!

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Salvation occurs by a circumcision of the heart, a spiritual circumcision, made without hands, but according to the verse quoted, it occurs at the time of "baptisma"=dipping/immersion in water.

It isn't the immersion that saves, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that saves. But in that verse, the clear, simple grammatically correct interpretation, says that this spiritual circumcision occurs at the time of water immersion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Salvation occurs by a circumcision of the heart, a spiritual circumcision, made without hands, but according to the verse quoted, it occurs at the time of "baptisma"=dipping/immersion in water.

It isn't the immersion that saves, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that saves. But in that verse, the clear, simple grammatically correct interpretation, says that this spiritual circumcision occurs at the time of water immersion.

the Holy spirit is NOT granted to us when water baptized, its when a sinner places faith in jesus!

 

[OldRegular]

If reason is listened to, it will undoubtedly appear that baptism is properly administered to infants as a thing due to them. The Lord did not anciently bestow circumcision upon them without making them partakers of all the things signified by circumcision. He would have deluded his people with mere imposture, had he quieted them with fallacious symbols: the very idea is shocking. I is distinctly declares, that the circumcision of the infant will be instead of a seal of the promise of the covenant. But if the covenant remains firm and fixed, it is no less applicable to the children of Christians in the present day, than to the children of the Jews under the Old Testament. ~Calvin

One of the several places where Calvin erred. The same is true to a lesser or greater extent for all those who came out of ROME!

 

[Wittenberger]

Don't think though either the RCC/Lutherymn church hold to that!

BOTH teach regeneration occurs by God in the rite of the water baptism!

BOTH teach that sacrament saves us, and places us into the 'community of faith/saved!"

I can't speak for the RCC but as a Lutheran, I can tell you this:

Yes, we believe God regenerates in infant baptism, like planting a seed in fertile ground. But if that child grows up and rejects God, lives a life of willful sin, the seedling will die, and the promise of eternal life will die with it.

Personal faith in Christ and repentance is always required for salvation in Lutheran theology, whether you are an infant or an adult.

If an adult non-believer wants to be saved, all he has to do is believe in Christ as his personal Savior, repent of his sins, and choose to follow Christ. We also believe he should be baptized. But he was saved by the power of the Holy Spirit, when God caused him to believe and repent.

He was not regenerated at the time of his baptism, but before when he believed. He was saved, like Abraham, before receiving the sign of the covenant.

For infants, we believe the salvation paradigm of the Old Testament continues into the New Covenant: the infants of believers receive the sign of promise, the sign of the promise of salvation, first. Then to receive the benefits of that promise, they must grow up and place their faith in Christ as their personal Savior, repent of their sins, and follow Christ.

One difference between Lutherans and some Baptists, is that this act of expressing faith and repenting is a one time event for some Baptists. We Lutherans believe that repentance, expressing faith in Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, choosing to follow His will, is a DAILY event for the rest of our lives.

We are not saved by trying to do good deeds, being a good person, going to church regularly, etc. We believe that we are saved by grace, through a personal faith and relationship with Christ.

Unfortunately, there are a good many Lutherans and orthodox Christians who believe that simply being baptized guarantees them salvation. They obviously were not paying attention in Lutheran worship services, Sunday School, or in their catechism (doctrinal teachings).

God plants a seed of faith in infant baptism. Yes, if that child dies at age 9 months we believe that God will save him. But if that child is not instructed in the ways of God and grows up to live a life devoid of God, he will not be saved.

Bottom line: Lutherans believe like Baptists that salvation is ONLY by grace, received through faith. Our difference is that we believe God can plant the seed of faith in an infant and then the infant when older must express faith in Christ, repent and follow him, where Baptists will say that God does not do anything at baptism. The child must reach a certain age and then make a decision for Christ, repent, etc.

So in actuality, we arrive at the same place: individual repentance, faith placed in Christ as our personal Savior, a decision to follow Christ and his will as expressed in his Word.

If you do not believe that the Lutheran Church teaches these doctrines, I encourage you to go to the website of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, www.lcms.org and read the section on Lutheran doctrine. Two good books to read are: the Lutheran Difference by Concordia Publishing and Spiritual Baptism by Saarnivaara.

 

[Moriah]

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Salvation occurs by a circumcision of the heart, a spiritual circumcision, made without hands, but according to the verse quoted, it occurs at the time of "baptisma"=dipping/immersion in water.

It isn't the immersion that saves, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that saves. But in that verse, the clear, simple grammatically correct interpretation, says that this spiritual circumcision occurs at the time of water immersion.

The scripture does not say what you say it does.
Water baptism is a symbol of that circumcision done by Christ.
Water baptism is also the time we confirm our pledge to God.

 

[padredurand]

One of the several places where Calvin erred. The same is true to a lesser or greater extent for all those who came out of ROME!

OR, I've just barely touched the surface.....:type:

 

[billwald]

>the Holy spirit is NOT granted to us when water baptized, its when a sinner places faith in jesus!

The Holy Spirit is NOT something to be passed (awarded) to us when we say the right words.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Salvation occurs by a circumcision of the heart, a spiritual circumcision, made without hands, but according to the verse quoted, it occurs at the time of "baptisma"=dipping/immersion in water.

It isn't the immersion that saves, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that saves. But in that verse, the clear, simple grammatically correct interpretation, says that this spiritual circumcision occurs at the time of water immersion.

It absolutely does not say that. That is a total misreading and misinterpretation of that scripture.

You know what this conversation reminds me of? It reminds me of the many times when Jesus would be speaking of something spiritual, but his hearers -- even his disciples -- could not get that because they were taking it as if He was referring to something physical.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I can't speak for the RCC but as a Lutheran, I can tell you this:

Yes, we believe God regenerates in infant baptism, like planting a seed in fertile ground. But if that child grows up and rejects God, lives a life of willful sin, the seedling will die, and the promise of eternal life will die with it.

Personal faith in Christ and repentance is always required for salvation in Lutheran theology, whether you are an infant or an adult.

If an adult non-believer wants to be saved, all he has to do is believe in Christ as his personal Savior, repent of his sins, and choose to follow Christ. We also believe he should be baptized. But he was saved by the power of the Holy Spirit, when God caused him to believe and repent.

He was not regenerated at the time of his baptism, but before when he believed. He was saved, like Abraham, before receiving the sign of the covenant.

For infants, we believe the salvation paradigm of the Old Testament continues into the New Covenant: the infants of believers receive the sign of promise, the sign of the promise of salvation, first. Then to receive the benefits of that promise, they must grow up and place their faith in Christ as their personal Savior, repent of their sins, and follow Christ.

One difference between Lutherans and some Baptists, is that this act of expressing faith and repenting is a one time event for some Baptists. We Lutherans believe that repentance, expressing faith in Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, choosing to follow His will, is a DAILY event for the rest of our lives.

We are not saved by trying to do good deeds, being a good person, going to church regularly, etc. We believe that we are saved by grace, through a personal faith and relationship with Christ.

Unfortunately, there are a good many Lutherans and orthodox Christians who believe that simply being baptized guarantees them salvation. They obviously were not paying attention in Lutheran worship services, Sunday School, or in their catechism (doctrinal teachings).

God plants a seed of faith in infant baptism. Yes, if that child dies at age 9 months we believe that God will save him. But if that child is not instructed in the ways of God and grows up to live a life devoid of God, he will not be saved.

Bottom line: Lutherans believe like Baptists that salvation is ONLY by grace, received through faith. Our difference is that we believe God can plant the seed of faith in an infant and then the infant when older must express faith in Christ, repent and follow him, where Baptists will say that God does not do anything at baptism. The child must reach a certain age and then make a decision for Christ, repent, etc.

So in actuality, we arrive at the same place: individual repentance, faith placed in Christ as our personal Savior, a decision to follow Christ and his will as expressed in his Word.

If you do not believe that the Lutheran Church teaches these doctrines, I encourage you to go to the website of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, www.lcms.org and read the section on Lutheran doctrine. Two good books to read are: the Lutheran Difference by Concordia Publishing and Spiritual Baptism by Saarnivaara.

Look at the two statements of yours that I bolded; they are contradictory. There is a difference between saying God does something and God can do something. Sure, I believe God can do anything He wants, but He doesn't do it at the behest of man and through a ritual. Further, there is absolutely nothing in scripture to support that God plants any kind of seed in infant baptism.

Oh, something interesting: I was talking to a pastor of the Anglican Mission in the Americas the other day, and I asked him if he believed in baptismal regeneration; he said no.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

>the Holy spirit is NOT granted to us when water baptized, its when a sinner places faith in jesus!

The Holy Spirit is NOT something to be passed (awarded) to us when we say the right words.

And that includes a water baptism ritual.

The Holy Spirit is given to us when we come to faith in Jesus, are spiritually reborn, and baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

It certainly seems plausible, except for the circumcision of infants in the OT.

As I previously stated, it is only Abraham that is set forth as THE EXAMPLE for ALL OF FAITH - no one else - Rom. 4:11; Gal. 3:6-7.

Circumcision is a type of new birth and the administration to male infants under the Old Covenant is simply a more expanded type of the same new birth. More expanded type as the literal cutting off of flesh is applied to literal infants at literal 8 days of age.

That is the "shadow" while the actual new birth is the substance. New birth is the beginning of a spiritual life like literal birth is the beginning of a physical life. Eight days is the Bibical symbol of new birth.

Under the "everlasting Covenant" (heb. 13:20) which EVERY SINGLE person "from the least" know God and do not have to be taught (confirmed) to know God as to know God is eternal life (Jn. 17:3; Jere. 31:34):

Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Jn. 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Infant circucmision of males at eight days old is simply the more expanded "shadow" or "type" or "figure" of new birth under the New Covenant.