Is Baptism the New Circumcision?

[Thinkingstuff]

The people in the Catholic religion should get rid of all the added teachings by men, and then they will live by the Truth.

You Moriah should get rid of the teachings of Men and return to the Truth that has been around since the time of the Apostles.

 

[The Biblicist]

You Moriah should get rid of the teachings of Men and return to the Truth that has been around since the time of the Apostles.

No, it has been around since the first prophet Abel - Acts 10:43

 

[Wittenberger]

Frankly, you are rejecting the clear and explicit Biblical evidence and instead reading uninspired, incomplete and many times inaccurate secular history back into the scriptures.

Circumcision does not help your case.

The complete silence of the New Testament in regard to any command or example of infant baptism does not help your case.

The explicit example and commands of scripture completely repudiate your case.

Bottom line, you violate the Word of God by your TRADITIONS. That is the simple truth of the matter whether you are honest enough to admit it or not.

Brother Biblicist,

As I mentioned on another thread, the reason I do not argue with Mormons on scriptural interpretation is not because I think they are right. I do not argue with Mormons because I know that for every verse of Scripture I give, they have two verses that, in their view, support their false teachings.

It basically comes down my interpretation versus their interpretation.

Unfortunately, our Baptist and evangelical brothers and sisters use the same "evidence" to support their interpretation of Scripture as do the Mormons: "the Holy Spirit convicts us that we are right".

It is this kind of internal, personal interpretation of Scripture that has led Reformed Christians, including their descendents the Baptists, to split and re-split into several hundred if not thousands of different denominations, sects and cults, because they all are absolutely sure that the Holy Spirit has told THEM the truth.

http://dwhamby1.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/do-mormons-have-any-evidence-of-their-claims/

If you want to know the true interpretation of Scripture don't look into yourself for an inner voice that my just be Satan himself.

Turn to the early Christians, the disciples of the Apostles, and their disciples for what the Apostles said that the Scripture meant.

 

[Wittenberger]

First of all Its truth Lead me to become Catholic. 2nd of all Roman Catholicism is Orthodox. It is protestants who have departed from Orthodoxy. I don't see how saying that its the church Jesus founded could be heretical especially when Jesus said the he specifically would "build his church" not his "churches". There must be a church which Jesus said he would build that goes down through the ages to the current day as Jesus made the claim "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". There should be a line of evidence down through the ages showing this "Church" which Jesus said he would build that can be traced back to the NT. There is no other evidence save for the Catholic/Orthodox faith that meets this discrimination. Protestant beliefs are all together a recent development in the whole history of Christianity.

Please do not include Lutherans, the original Protestants, in your characterization of Protestantism.

Luther wanted to reform the Church to the beliefs of the early Church Fathers. Pope Leo X kicked him and us out the one catholic, apostolic church for daring to question him.

Lutheranism represents the original faith, doctrine and practices of the One, Holy, Catholic Church.

 

[Wittenberger]

The people in the Catholic religion should get rid of all the added teachings by men, and then they will live by the Truth.

Amen! The RCC can recognize the reforms Luther tried to institute 500 years ago and the one, holy, catholic church will be the same Church as that of the early Church Fathers.

I hope you Baptists and evangelicals will come back to the Mother Church when that day happens!

 

[The Biblicist]

Turn to the early Christians, the disciples of the Apostles, and their disciples for what the Apostles said that the Scripture meant.

That is utterly rediculous!! Christ always condemned traditional interpretations of the elders and always based his teachings on God's Word. "Thy word is truth" and Truth is based upon rightly dividing scripture. Rightly divided scripture ALWAYS is consistent with the immediate and overal context and NEVER contrary to it.

Your position has been shown to be contrary to Biblical context. What has been your response? You simply ASSERT we are at an impasse and then you conveniently ignore the biblical context and evidence! It is not a matter of contrary opinions but your position is simply wrong and the context of scripture proves it to be wrong and you have no counter-response but your assertion that we are at an impasse.

Paul presents Abraham as THE EXAMPLE for ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH not merely some - Rom. 4:11. He never presents circumcision of infants as an example - never, not once. You must rationalize and go beyond what the Scriptures say and in spite of what the scriptues clearly condemn.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is utterly rediculous!! Christ always condemned traditional interpretations of the elders and always based his teachings on God's Word. "Thy word is truth" and Truth is based upon rightly dividing scripture. Rightly divided scripture ALWAYS is consistent with the immediate and overal context and NEVER contrary to it.

Your position has been shown to be contrary to Biblical context. What has been your response? You simply ASSERT we are at an impasse and then you conveniently ignore the biblical context and evidence! It is not a matter of contrary opinions but your position is simply wrong and the context of scripture proves it to be wrong and you have no counter-response but your assertion that we are at an impasse.

Paul presents Abraham as THE EXAMPLE for ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH not merely some - Rom. 4:11. He never presents circumcision of infants as an example - never, not once. You must rationalize and go beyond what the Scriptures say and in spite of what the scriptues clearly condemn.

Neither Christ nor the Apostles approached Scripture like Rome and Reformed Rome. Neither Christ or the Apostles sought the traditional interpretations of the elders for doctrine and practice. Instead, they sought the scriptures directly to validate their teaching and commended those who sought the scriptures to test what they taught (Acts 17).

The so-called "fathers" are no better than the Jewish so-called "elders" as both are the records of apostasy from the scriptures.

 

[Wittenberger]

Neither Christ nor the Apostles approached Scripture like Rome and Reformed Rome. Neither Christ or the Apostles sought the traditional interpretations of the elders for doctrine and practice. Instead, they sought the scriptures directly to validate their teaching and commended those who sought the scriptures to test what they taught (Acts 17).

The so-called "fathers" are no better than the Jewish so-called "elders" as both are the records of apostasy from the scriptures.

Dear Brother,

I don't debate you for the same reason I don't debate Mormons. Just because they may be more clever than me to find verses that seem to agree with their false teachings, DOES NOT MAKE THEM RIGHT!

Your interpretation of Scripture has no more basis of support that that of the Mormons: your own internal feelings that you are right.

http://dwhamby1.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/do-mormons-have-any-evidence-of-their-claims/

 

[The Biblicist]

Dear Brother,

I don't debate you for the same reason I don't debate Mormons. Just because they may be more clever than me to find verses that seem to agree with their false teachings, DOES NOT MAKE THEM RIGHT!

Your advertising your complete ignorance of Baptist hermeneutics. It is not a matter of QUANTITY of scriptures that can be marshalled against an idea but it is the QUALITY or how that interpretation fits the immediate and overall context.

Mormons are notorious PROOF TEXTERS that jerk scriptures out of context and ultimately repudiate the Bible altogether when it comes down to a choice between the book of Mormon and the Bible in points of conflict.

Your interpretation of Scripture has no more basis of support that that of the Mormons: your own internal feelings that you are right.

What you are saying is not only factually error but is an insult and a false accusation and I think YOU KNOW IT!

Mormons do go by feelings but I NEVER interpret by feelings but by contextual data and contextual harmonization. God is not the Author of confusion and so no text in scripture has contrary applications or contrary interpretations but is ALWAYS consistent with the grammatical and historical facts of the immediate context - that is not feelings - that is facts.

The truth is that your position and approach to scripture more like the Mormons approach. They too when confronted with contextual data run for the same cover you do - tradition.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

First of all Its truth Lead me to become Catholic. 2nd of all Roman Catholicism is Orthodox. It is protestants who have departed from Orthodoxy. I don't see how saying that its the church Jesus founded could be heretical especially when Jesus said the he specifically would "build his church" not his "churches". There must be a church which Jesus said he would build that goes down through the ages to the current day as Jesus made the claim "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". There should be a line of evidence down through the ages showing this "Church" which Jesus said he would build that can be traced back to the NT. There is no other evidence save for the Catholic/Orthodox faith that meets this discrimination. Protestant beliefs are all together a recent development in the whole history of Christianity.

Protestant beliefs, a recent development? Yeah, a recent development with the aim of shedding RC traditions of men and getting back to the scriptures because the RCC had long since departed from both orthodoxy and the scriptures. But the Protestants didn't do a thorough enough job of it. I have no love for the Magisterial Reformers for the very reason that they kept many of the Roman errors -- such as Augustinianism, and the idea that Jesus would approve of murdering dissenters in His name.

The church that Jesus founded had absolutely nothing to do with an authoritarian, hierarchical, monolithic outward institution that substitutes its own man-made traditions for the teachings of Jesus. The church Jesus founded was a spiritual entity composed of all true believers from His time down to the present day. That is the only true church that Jesus built and which hell cannot prevail against; that is the only church that can be traced back to the New Testament. The evidence for it is in the lives of all those true Christians who lived and followed in the footsteps of our Lord, despite all the persecution and bloodletting heaped upon them by the counterfeit "church" doing the work of the devil.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Amen! The RCC can recognize the reforms Luther tried to institute 500 years ago and the one, holy, catholic church will be the same Church as that of the early Church Fathers.

I hope you Baptists and evangelicals will come back to the Mother Church when that day happens!

And if it's the church of the Fathers and not of the New Testament, it will be the Mother Whore spoken of in scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

And if it's the church of the Fathers and not of the New Testament, it will be the Mother Whore spoken of in scripture.

I would rather remain in the Church of jesus, not the "Mother Church!"

 

[Moriah]

Amen! The RCC can recognize the reforms Luther tried to institute 500 years ago and the one, holy, catholic church will be the same Church as that of the early Church Fathers.

I hope you Baptists and evangelicals will come back to the Mother Church when that day happens!

Is it not Luther who started the false doctrine “faith alone” or “faith only”?

Baptists got that false doctrine from the Lutherans. The only time faith alone is mentioned in the Bible, it is to tell us what kind of faith not to have.

Luther went against the Catholics for much of their error, but Luther added his own error.

Luther went against the Catholics but did not go far enough when he kept to infant baptism and real presence in the bread and wine.

 

[DHK]

Amen! The RCC can recognize the reforms Luther tried to institute 500 years ago and the one, holy, catholic church will be the same Church as that of the early Church Fathers.

I hope you Baptists and evangelicals will come back to the Mother Church when that day happens!

Are you trying to proselytize?

 

[Moriah]

Are you trying to proselytize?

So what if he is? Are not you here hoping to teach someone and have them believe as you do?

 

[DHK]

So what if he is? Are not you here hoping to teach someone and have them believe as you do?

Are you teachable. Maybe you are a Catholic in disguise. Another RCC, perhaps, maybe J.W., Mormon? I don't know.
You are reluctant to identify yourself according to the rules.
You don't give your denomination.
You don't give the name of your church.

Don't try to rationalize this away. You need to be specific.

 

[Moriah]

Are you teachable. Maybe you are a Catholic in disguise. Another RCC, perhaps, maybe J.W., Mormon? I don't know.
You are reluctant to identify yourself according to the rules.
You don't give your denomination.
You don't give the name of your church.

Don't try to rationalize this away. You need to be specific.

Hmmm…try to figure out what I am….
I believe in searching for God and finding Him by getting the teachings of Jesus from the Holy Bible and doing the things Jesus says, and that you will receive the Holy Spirit.
I have publically exposed the Catholics falseness, the Mormons, the JW’s, the Calvinists, the Lutherans, the Messianic Jews, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and many others. I have exposed the falseness of infant baptism, speaking in tongues, Calvinism, Soul Sleep, on and on.
I have told you that I am a Christian, and that I belong to the body of Christ.

 

[DHK]

Hmmm…try to figure out what I am….
I believe in searching for God and finding Him by getting the teachings of Jesus from the Holy Bible and doing the things Jesus says, and that you will receive the Holy Spirit.
I have publically exposed the Catholics falseness, the Mormons, the JW’s, the Calvinists, the Lutherans, the Messianic Jews, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and many others. I have exposed the falseness of infant baptism, speaking in tongues, Calvinism, Soul Sleep, on and on.
I have told you that I am a Christian, and that I belong to the body of Christ.

But you haven't told me what you are.

I will make the same statement you made me to me.
You get all your teaching from your denominational teachers.
Those are your words, and since you believe them, you must have a denomination. Don't call the kettle black here. You were taught by a denomination weren't you? Which one? What assembly are you a part of, and who have you been taught of, that gave you the beliefs that you have now?

 

[Moriah]

But you haven't told me what you are.

I have told you what I am.
I am a Christian. I belong to the body of Christ.

I will make the same statement you made me to me.
You get all your teaching from your denominational teachers.

You said you are an Independent Fundamental Baptist. That is a denomination.

Those are your words, and since you believe them, you must have a denomination. Don't call the kettle black here.

I am not a black pot calling a black kettle black.
I can search the IFB statements online and find your EXACT teaching that you do here.

You were taught by a denomination weren't you?

I had been in false denominations. After I was saved there were people trying to teach me their falseness. I know about many false religions and denominations. I check on everything that anyone tries to teach me.

Which one? What assembly are you a part of, and who have you been taught of, that gave you the beliefs that you have now?

I get Jesus’ teachings from His written Word. Jesus saved me, gave me his Holy Spirit, and revealed himself to me.

 

[DHK]

I have told you what I am.
I am a Christian. I belong to the body of Christ.

Mormons make the same claim. Why should I believe you. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You said you are an Independent Fundamental Baptist. That is a denomination.

I am independent, as it suggests--independent from all other churches.
I am Fundamental--holding to the fundamentals of the faith.
I am Baptist--holding to the distinctives of the Baptists.
Since you are ignorant of these things you have no idea what I believe. There are hundreds of different Baptists.

I am not a black pot calling a black kettle black.
I can search the IFB statements online and find your EXACT teaching that you do here.

You have done one of two things here.
If you have done a search you would have found that the statements of faith of IFB churches vary greatly from church. Thus you would be posting a lie.
If you haven't done a search yet, then you are posting out of gross ignorance. Which do you plead guilty to?

I had been in false denominations. After I was saved there were people trying to teach me their falseness. I know about many false religions and denominations. I check on everything that anyone tries to teach me.

And which one do you associate with now? Or, are you the only one right in the world, and all the world is wrong.

I get Jesus’ teachings from His written Word. Jesus saved me, gave me his Holy Spirit, and revealed himself to me.

So you are a Gnostic? Is this right?