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Is being thankful that you're not a catholic arrogant?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
I havent been really following this topic but to me it seems odd thay with all the doctrines the catholic church teaches an all the practices they do.... that you all have gone on for so long on this subject of repetitious prayer.
I cant imagine that there would be so much to say about it.
just seems strange.
Of course though, I guess if some of you believe in being repetitious then that would explain it LOL!
Claudia
I cant imagine that there would be so much to say about it.
just seems strange.
Of course though, I guess if some of you believe in being repetitious then that would explain it LOL!
Claudia
Charles Meadows
New Member
So now saying the Lord's prayer is bad too?
DHK I think your degree of legalism beats anything I ever experienced in catholicism (and you don't even have the neat colored robes!).
DHK I think your degree of legalism beats anything I ever experienced in catholicism (and you don't even have the neat colored robes!).
It is not a matter of legalism at all. Legalism has nothing to do with it. This is not a matter of a list of do's and don'ts but rather of "What saith the Lord?"
What did Jesus say? What does the Bible teach? If we don't have the Bible as our authority then what do we have?
Jesus said: "Pray after this manner," not, 'pray this pray.' Let's be Biblical and follow the teachings of Jesus. He never meant for us to pray the words that he said. They were principles for us to learn when the disciples came to him and asked him the question: "Lord, teach us to pray." That was his answer. Never do we have the example of the disciples reciting that prayer. But they do use principles from it. They do address God in Heaven as holy, for example.
There are, of course, the many other reason I gave in my previous post. I don't believe that any person can sincerely pray that prayer and honestly apply it to their own hearts and lives. If they say they are doing that then they haven't studied it, they don't know what it means, or they are hypocrites.
How many among you can honestly pray: "Lord I pray that your will, will be done in my life on this earth, just as your will is done in heaven." That is total submission, total dedication, 100% obedience without sin, 100% of the time, all of your Christian life. The angels of God in heaven do not disobey God, but always obey him completely, immediately, faithfully--always.
Who prays: "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and really expects it to be accomplished in their lives. If you say "I do," you are badly deceived.
DHK
The Galatian
Active Member
One can also use prayer as a way to calm and still the mind and listen to what God has to say.
There is a great and holy tradition of Christian contemplation in all Churches, Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox.
It's not a one-way communication. At least, it shouldn't be.
There is a great and holy tradition of Christian contemplation in all Churches, Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox.
It's not a one-way communication. At least, it shouldn't be.
1 Samuel 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.
1 Samuel 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
Hannah travailed in prayer. These were no recited prayers. She prayed from her heart.
DHK
1 Samuel 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
Hannah travailed in prayer. These were no recited prayers. She prayed from her heart.
DHK
Just because Im being childish right now, and people keep accusing me of using Ellen White's writings as "proof" for doctrines (which I have not done- people misunderstand me)...I am posting these passages by Ellen White on the subject of repetitious prayer.
>>>and now I will be officially over my tirade... and if anybody doesnt want to read it, well then just dont then (I dont see a person sticking their tongue out icon or else I would use it here)
...anyway, here's some of the stuff she says I enjoy reading what she has to say, personally:
Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 1, page 276, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Selfishness and Self-centeredness
Self-expiation the Principle of Prayer in False Religions.--The heathen looked upon their prayers as having in themselves merit to atone for sin. Hence the longer the prayer the greater the merit. If they could become holy by their own efforts, they would have something in themselves in which to rejoice, some ground for boasting. This idea of prayer is an outworking of the principle of self-expiation which lies at the foundation of all systems of false religion. The Pharisees had adopted this pagan idea of prayer, and it is by no means extinct in our day, even among those who profess to be Christians. The repetition of set, customary phrases when the heart feels no need of God is of the same character as the "vain repetitions" of the heathen.--MB 86 (1896).
My Life Today, page 19, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: A Consecrated Life
There are two kinds of prayer--the prayer of form and the prayer of faith. The repetition of set, customary phrases when the heart feels no need of God, is formal prayer. . . . We should be extremely careful in all our prayers to speak the wants of the heart and to say only what we mean. All the flowery words at our command are not equivalent to one holy desire. The most eloquent prayers are but vain repetitions if they do not express the true sentiments of the heart. But the prayer that comes from an earnest heart, when the simple wants of the soul are expressed just as we would ask an earthly friend for a favor, expecting that it would be granted--this is the prayer of faith. The publican who went up to the temple to pray is a good example of a sincere, devoted worshiper. He felt that he was a sinner, and his great need led to an outburst of passionate desire, "God be merciful to me a sinner." . . .
Testimonies for the Church Volume Two, page 581, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Social Meetings
Christ impressed upon His disciples the idea that their prayers should be short, expressing just what they wanted, and no more. He gives the length and substance of their prayers, expressing their desires for temporal and spiritual blessings, and their gratitude for the same. How comprehensive this sample prayer! It covers the actual need of all. One or two minutes is long enough for any ordinary prayer. There may be instances where prayer is in a special manner indited by the Spirit of God, where supplication is made in the Spirit. The yearning soul becomes agonized and groans after God. The spirit wrestles as did Jacob and will not be at rest without special manifestations of the power of God. This is as God would have it.
But many offer prayer in a dry, sermonizing manner. These pray to men, not to God. If they were praying to God, and really understood what they were doing, they would be alarmed at their audacity; for they deliver a discourse to the Lord in the mode of prayer, as though the Creator of the universe needed special information upon general questions in relation to things transpiring in the world. All such prayers are as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. They are made no account of in heaven. Angels of God are wearied with them, as well as mortals who are compelled to listen to them.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Six, page 249, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Medical Missionary Work
The way the Jewish teachers explained the Scriptures, their endless repetitions of maxims and fiction, called forth from Christ the words: "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoreth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me."
Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 102, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Christ Our Example in Every Line of Work; Counsel on Medical Missionary
Having cautioned His disciples not to use vain repetitions in their prayers, Christ gave them a model prayer. "After this manner therefore pray ye," He said:
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
I am instructed to say to all our churches, Pray the prayer that Christ taught to His disciples. Study this prayer; live it; and you will win a crown of life everlasting.
"Hallowed be Thy name." The name of God is always to be spoken with thoughtful reverence and love.
"Thy kingdom come." Let us pray the Father to help us receive the kingdom of heaven into our hearts. Christ is to be enthroned within, as the source of all power and supremacy. Let us look to God in faith, saying, "Lead us, strengthen us, inspire us by Thy Holy Spirit to do Thy will on earth as it is done in heaven." This will necessitate our receiving into the heart an abundance of grace from Christ Jesus day by day, hour by hour.
Shall we not include in our prayers the words, "Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done," and then understandingly answer our own petitions by keeping the human will in subjection to God's will, in order that the unsanctified desires and ambitious devisings of the human mind may not become a controlling power? Shall we not receive the Holy Spirit as a welcome Guest into the soul-temple, that the will and the purposes of Christ may be worked out in and through us to God's glory? Shall we not, in word and deed, carry out the expressed will of the One who cannot err or make a mistake?
We cannot afford to consult fallible minds, or to depend on human judgment, so often unsanctified and perverse. This is why true followers of Christ have such a great soul-hunger for the Holy Spirit; for the Holy Spirit so works through human agents that God's will is done on the earth as it is in heaven.
Those who, in cooperation with heavenly intelligences, endeavor to answer the prayer that Christ has given us, will be enabled to do the will of God on the earth as it is done in heaven. The Master will take possession of, and use in fulfilling His will, every mind that is entirely surrendered to Him. This is the higher education which every Christian should most earnestly strive to obtain.
The world's plan, the world's policy, the will and the suggestion of unsanctified hearts, are striving for recognition. Of many, the world, and not the Lord Jesus Christ, is master. Selfishness is strengthened by the unsanctified desires and will of the human agent. Christians in name, many are practicing a fraud upon the world, for into the life-practice they bring worldly principles. In dealing with their fellow men, they use the hasty, sharp words that worldlings use. Revealing the same nature as the unconverted, while claiming to be converted, they are false witnesses against the meek and lowly Saviour.
The world has no claim to our service, for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of services at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.
In the third of Colossians we read: "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory" [Col. 3:1-4]. <03
This whole chapter should be carefully studied. What is the charge given us? "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now [after pledging yourself to serve Christ in truth and verify] ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth" [verses 5-8].
Notice the next verse: "Lie not one to another." If you have solemnly covenanted with God, in the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit, to act as a member of the royal family, a child of the heavenly King, you will not in your life lie against the truth you profess to believe. You will not reveal by your works that you are a sinner, while professing to be a saint. If you are sincere in making this pledge, you will not be found nullifying your prayer. "Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven," by acting as sinners act whenever it best suits your convenience to act thus, and when you can advantage yourself and at your neighbor's disadvantage.
Those who choose to become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, must reveal their choice by bringing their words and actions into harmony with the principles they advocate. My brother, my sister, is the kingdom of God enthroned in your heart by Christ's presence abiding there? Or is self still a controlling power within? Whose subject are you? If a selfish spirit continues to keep you out of Christ's service, pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Pray, oh, pray most earnestly, "Put Thy Spirit, Lord, Thy Holy Spirit, within my heart, that I may be sincere in keeping my baptismal vow." Pray that the intercession of Christ in your behalf shall not be in vain. Pray that unbelief shall no longer lead you to live a life that bears witness against the truth; no longer lead you to claim to be in God's service while in the life-practice, because of a perverted will, you reveal that you are not bearing the fruits of the Spirit. Pray for power to demonstrate to the world that you are dead to sin, and that your life is indeed hid with Christ in God.
>>>and now I will be officially over my tirade... and if anybody doesnt want to read it, well then just dont then (I dont see a person sticking their tongue out icon or else I would use it here)
...anyway, here's some of the stuff she says I enjoy reading what she has to say, personally:
Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 1, page 276, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Selfishness and Self-centeredness
Self-expiation the Principle of Prayer in False Religions.--The heathen looked upon their prayers as having in themselves merit to atone for sin. Hence the longer the prayer the greater the merit. If they could become holy by their own efforts, they would have something in themselves in which to rejoice, some ground for boasting. This idea of prayer is an outworking of the principle of self-expiation which lies at the foundation of all systems of false religion. The Pharisees had adopted this pagan idea of prayer, and it is by no means extinct in our day, even among those who profess to be Christians. The repetition of set, customary phrases when the heart feels no need of God is of the same character as the "vain repetitions" of the heathen.--MB 86 (1896).
My Life Today, page 19, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: A Consecrated Life
There are two kinds of prayer--the prayer of form and the prayer of faith. The repetition of set, customary phrases when the heart feels no need of God, is formal prayer. . . . We should be extremely careful in all our prayers to speak the wants of the heart and to say only what we mean. All the flowery words at our command are not equivalent to one holy desire. The most eloquent prayers are but vain repetitions if they do not express the true sentiments of the heart. But the prayer that comes from an earnest heart, when the simple wants of the soul are expressed just as we would ask an earthly friend for a favor, expecting that it would be granted--this is the prayer of faith. The publican who went up to the temple to pray is a good example of a sincere, devoted worshiper. He felt that he was a sinner, and his great need led to an outburst of passionate desire, "God be merciful to me a sinner." . . .
Testimonies for the Church Volume Two, page 581, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Social Meetings
Christ impressed upon His disciples the idea that their prayers should be short, expressing just what they wanted, and no more. He gives the length and substance of their prayers, expressing their desires for temporal and spiritual blessings, and their gratitude for the same. How comprehensive this sample prayer! It covers the actual need of all. One or two minutes is long enough for any ordinary prayer. There may be instances where prayer is in a special manner indited by the Spirit of God, where supplication is made in the Spirit. The yearning soul becomes agonized and groans after God. The spirit wrestles as did Jacob and will not be at rest without special manifestations of the power of God. This is as God would have it.
But many offer prayer in a dry, sermonizing manner. These pray to men, not to God. If they were praying to God, and really understood what they were doing, they would be alarmed at their audacity; for they deliver a discourse to the Lord in the mode of prayer, as though the Creator of the universe needed special information upon general questions in relation to things transpiring in the world. All such prayers are as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. They are made no account of in heaven. Angels of God are wearied with them, as well as mortals who are compelled to listen to them.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Six, page 249, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Medical Missionary Work
The way the Jewish teachers explained the Scriptures, their endless repetitions of maxims and fiction, called forth from Christ the words: "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoreth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me."
Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 102, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Christ Our Example in Every Line of Work; Counsel on Medical Missionary
Having cautioned His disciples not to use vain repetitions in their prayers, Christ gave them a model prayer. "After this manner therefore pray ye," He said:
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
I am instructed to say to all our churches, Pray the prayer that Christ taught to His disciples. Study this prayer; live it; and you will win a crown of life everlasting.
"Hallowed be Thy name." The name of God is always to be spoken with thoughtful reverence and love.
"Thy kingdom come." Let us pray the Father to help us receive the kingdom of heaven into our hearts. Christ is to be enthroned within, as the source of all power and supremacy. Let us look to God in faith, saying, "Lead us, strengthen us, inspire us by Thy Holy Spirit to do Thy will on earth as it is done in heaven." This will necessitate our receiving into the heart an abundance of grace from Christ Jesus day by day, hour by hour.
Shall we not include in our prayers the words, "Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done," and then understandingly answer our own petitions by keeping the human will in subjection to God's will, in order that the unsanctified desires and ambitious devisings of the human mind may not become a controlling power? Shall we not receive the Holy Spirit as a welcome Guest into the soul-temple, that the will and the purposes of Christ may be worked out in and through us to God's glory? Shall we not, in word and deed, carry out the expressed will of the One who cannot err or make a mistake?
We cannot afford to consult fallible minds, or to depend on human judgment, so often unsanctified and perverse. This is why true followers of Christ have such a great soul-hunger for the Holy Spirit; for the Holy Spirit so works through human agents that God's will is done on the earth as it is in heaven.
Those who, in cooperation with heavenly intelligences, endeavor to answer the prayer that Christ has given us, will be enabled to do the will of God on the earth as it is done in heaven. The Master will take possession of, and use in fulfilling His will, every mind that is entirely surrendered to Him. This is the higher education which every Christian should most earnestly strive to obtain.
The world's plan, the world's policy, the will and the suggestion of unsanctified hearts, are striving for recognition. Of many, the world, and not the Lord Jesus Christ, is master. Selfishness is strengthened by the unsanctified desires and will of the human agent. Christians in name, many are practicing a fraud upon the world, for into the life-practice they bring worldly principles. In dealing with their fellow men, they use the hasty, sharp words that worldlings use. Revealing the same nature as the unconverted, while claiming to be converted, they are false witnesses against the meek and lowly Saviour.
The world has no claim to our service, for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of services at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.
In the third of Colossians we read: "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory" [Col. 3:1-4]. <03
This whole chapter should be carefully studied. What is the charge given us? "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now [after pledging yourself to serve Christ in truth and verify] ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth" [verses 5-8].
Notice the next verse: "Lie not one to another." If you have solemnly covenanted with God, in the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit, to act as a member of the royal family, a child of the heavenly King, you will not in your life lie against the truth you profess to believe. You will not reveal by your works that you are a sinner, while professing to be a saint. If you are sincere in making this pledge, you will not be found nullifying your prayer. "Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven," by acting as sinners act whenever it best suits your convenience to act thus, and when you can advantage yourself and at your neighbor's disadvantage.
Those who choose to become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, must reveal their choice by bringing their words and actions into harmony with the principles they advocate. My brother, my sister, is the kingdom of God enthroned in your heart by Christ's presence abiding there? Or is self still a controlling power within? Whose subject are you? If a selfish spirit continues to keep you out of Christ's service, pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Pray, oh, pray most earnestly, "Put Thy Spirit, Lord, Thy Holy Spirit, within my heart, that I may be sincere in keeping my baptismal vow." Pray that the intercession of Christ in your behalf shall not be in vain. Pray that unbelief shall no longer lead you to live a life that bears witness against the truth; no longer lead you to claim to be in God's service while in the life-practice, because of a perverted will, you reveal that you are not bearing the fruits of the Spirit. Pray for power to demonstrate to the world that you are dead to sin, and that your life is indeed hid with Christ in God.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Who prays: "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and really expects it to be accomplished in their lives. If you say "I do," you are badly deceived.
Let me first say that none of my comments are meant to question your devotion to what you believe.
It's fairly obvious that no one is completely right when it comes to the doctrines of God. We are all human and have only human grasp of the scriptures. But you have undue focus on what is WRONG with everyone else's position.
There is much positive about praying the Lord's prayer. If one can pray this, trying to conform him/herself to those words, then it is a positive prayer experience. In what wise do you find fault with this? Your words I quoted above sound very much like a catholic priest from a generation ago telling a man why it is presumptious to read the scriptures without the guidance of a priest, as if the man could, by himself, actually apply it to his life.
As for the catholiphobia of the initial post - I will repeat my assertion that I am glad I am a Christian and that God saw fit to save me. What was it that Jesus said in Luke 18:9-14? It seems that Jesus Himself has answered the question of the opening post!!
Let me first say that none of my comments are meant to question your devotion to what you believe.
It's fairly obvious that no one is completely right when it comes to the doctrines of God. We are all human and have only human grasp of the scriptures. But you have undue focus on what is WRONG with everyone else's position.
There is much positive about praying the Lord's prayer. If one can pray this, trying to conform him/herself to those words, then it is a positive prayer experience. In what wise do you find fault with this? Your words I quoted above sound very much like a catholic priest from a generation ago telling a man why it is presumptious to read the scriptures without the guidance of a priest, as if the man could, by himself, actually apply it to his life.
As for the catholiphobia of the initial post - I will repeat my assertion that I am glad I am a Christian and that God saw fit to save me. What was it that Jesus said in Luke 18:9-14? It seems that Jesus Himself has answered the question of the opening post!!
tragic_pizza
New Member
DHK, do you see into the hearts of every human being? Can you honestly say that someone who repeats the Lord's Prayer doesn't want those things he or she prays for?
If so, please share evidence of this supernatural skill.
If so, please share evidence of this supernatural skill.
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Um...
"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father, which art in heaven..."--Luke 11:2
You were saying?
Michael
tragic_pizza
New Member
</font>[/QUOTE]Citation? Link?
Barnes Notes on the New Testament
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=006
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=006
tragic_pizza
New Member
Had to go to a ninteenth-century Presbyterian for that one , eh?
