Is being thankful that you're not a catholic arrogant?

[DHK]

But before we explain the Lord's Prayer part by part, it is most necessary first to exhort and incite people to prayer, as Christ and the apostles also have done. And the first matter is to know that it is our duty to pray because of God's commandment. For thus we heard in the Second Commandment: Thou shalt not take the name of the lord, thy God, in vain, that we are there required to praise that holy name, and call upon it in every need, or to pray. For to call upon the name of God is nothing else than to pray. Prayer is therefore as strictly and earnestly commanded as all other commandments: to have no other God, not to kill, not to steal, etc. Let no one think that it is all the same whether he pray or not, as vulgar people do, who grope in such delusion and ask Why should I pray? Who knows whether God heeds or will hear my prayer? If I do not pray, some one else will. And thus they fall into the habit of never praying, and frame a pretext, as though we taught that there is no duty or need of prayer, because we reject false and hypocritical prayers.
But this is true indeed that such prayers as have been offered hitherto when men were babbling and bawling in the churches were no prayers. For such external matters, when they are properly observed, may be a good exercise for young children, scholars, and simple persons, and may be called singing or reading, but not really praying. But praying, as the Second Commandment teaches, is to call upon God in every need. This He requires of us, and has not left it to our choice. But it is our duty and obligation to pray if we would be Christians, as much as it is our duty and obligation to obey our parents and the government; for by calling upon it and praying the name of God is honored and profitably employed. This you must note above all things, that thereby you may silence and repel such thoughts as would keep and deter us from prayer. For just as it would be idle for a son to say to his father, "Of what advantage is my obedience? I will go and do what I can; it is all the same"; but there stands the commandment, Thou shalt and must do it, so also here it is not left to my will to do it or leave it undone, but prayer shall and must be offered at the risk of God's wrath and displeasure. (Luther)

http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/large_cat/large_catechism17.htm

 

[DHK]

And what is the Lord Christ's-as this method of praying is-that is not heavenly? And so, blessed brethren, let us consider His heavenly wisdom: first, touching the precept of praying secretly, whereby He exacted man's faith, that he should be confident that the sight and hearing of Almighty God are present beneath roofs, and extend even into the secret place; and required modesty in faith, that it should offer its religious homage to Him alone, whom it believed to see and to hear everywhere. Further, since wisdom succeeded in the following precept, let it in like manner appertain unto faith, and the modesty of faith, that we think not that the Lord must be approached with a train of words, who, we are certain, takes unsolicited foresight for His own. And yet that very brevity-and let this make for the third grade of wisdom-is supported on the substance of a great and blessed interpretation, and is as diffuse in meaning as it is compressed in words. For it has embraced not only the special duties of prayer, be it veneration of God or petition for man, but almost every discourse of the Lord, every record of His Discipline; so that, in fact, in the Prayer is comprised an epitome of the whole Gospel. (Tertullian (3rd Century)

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-03/anf03-51.htm#P11763_3301331

 

[Eliyahu]

I hope everyone distinguish among the three prayers mentioned in Gospel.

1) Matt 6:9- :
This was taught to the people on the mountain.
This is the "Prayer taught by Lord"

2) Luke 11:2-
This was taught to the Disciples by Lord.
This may be called " Disciples' Prayer"
This is slightly different from Prayer taught by Lord in Matt 6:9-

3) John 17:1-26
Lord Jesus prayed and the contents of the prayer is recorded there. This is the " Lord's Prayer"

Hope there is no confusion.

Repeating the same Prayer is a stupid thing, but if anyone memorize it once every week, that is not the matter of repetition, even though it may lead us to think about the ready made prayer or tailor made prayer. In my childhood I used to prayed the Lord's Prayer at the Sunday school once or twice a week. My children did so.

It is ridiculous comparison if anyone try to illustrate some of the common prayers repeated once or twice a week in order to nullify the Words of the Lord that one should not repeat the prayer in vain. Praying with Prayer Bead or Rosario is apparently pagan custom, believing that the repeated prayer may be heard, unbelieving that the one time prayer is not sufficient.

Prayer must be presented from the heart in depth as we learn from Shema in Deut 6:4-

[ April 18, 2006, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[JFox1]

Now this beats all! I've NEVER heard of anyone making a major issue out of reading the Lord's Prayer during church services and claiming it's a "vain repetition". I would think it odd if my church didn't have the Lord's Prayer during worship.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by JFox1:
Now this beats all! I've NEVER heard of anyone making a major issue out of reading the Lord's Prayer during church services and claiming it's a "vain repetition". I would think it odd if my church didn't have the Lord's Prayer during worship.

So, does your church repeat the Lord's Prayer ten times or hundred times or thousand times on every Sunday?

 

[The Galatian]

We do it once during services. It is, after all, what Jesus told us to do. He did it publicly Himself, so I'm pretty sure He thought it was OK to do so.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

DHK,

Your quote of Matthew 6 neither contradicts nor negates my quote of Luke 11. Jesus clearly said, "When ye pray, say..." Are you telling me He didn't mean, "Say..."? Furthermore, your quotations of commentaries accopmlish nothing because we already agree on everything said in those commentaries.

I do not believe the Lord's Prayer ought to be used as a mantra. I do not believe any prayer should be used as such. I do, however, believe that to pray another's words from your own heart is a far cry from the vain repitition of the heathens. When words fail us, we have in the words of Jesus a prayer by which to model our own, and I don't think Jesus will accuse us of plagiarism if we use His words, particularly when He has said, "When ye pray, say, Our Father..."

Michael

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Snitzelhoff:
When words fail us, we have in the words of Jesus a prayer by which to model our own, and I don't think Jesus will accuse us of plagiarism if we use His words, particularly when He has said, "When ye pray, say, Our Father..."

Michael

If you are the pastor of a church can you conscientiously lead your congregation in a recitation of the Lord's Prayer, knowing full well that there may be some there that are unsaved, and will be addressing God as Father, when in reality He isn't?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

DHK,

I suppose, if you were the pastor of a church (I don't know whether you are or not), you wouldn't lead your congregation in hymns referring to God as "Father" for that same reason?

Michael

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Snitzelhoff:
DHK,

I suppose, if you were the pastor of a church (I don't know whether you are or not), you wouldn't lead your congregation in hymns referring to God as "Father" for that same reason?

Michael

There is a difference between singing and praying. Christmas hymns declaring both the deity and virgin birth of Christ are sung throughout public malls during the Christmas season. That doesn't mean people are worshiping God, but the message of Christ is at least getting across in some way. Singing is giving praise to God. It is true that it is for the believer.

But the Lord's Prayer is a very specific prayer given in answer to a request by the disciples: "Lord, teach us to prayer." Not only was this a model prayer for a Christian, it was a model prayer for a disciple, one who is dedicated his life to following Christ. There is a big difference between singing:
"Christ the Lord is Risen Today"
and praying:
"Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
DHK

 

[DHK]

Our Father who art in heaven
--The unsaved person cannot address God as Father; his father is the devil (John 8:44). Not until he is born again does he become a child of God. It is wrong for him to call God his Father.

Hallow'd be thy name.
The unsaved person cannot pray: "Thy name be made holy." Why? How is God's name made holy through you? How is this prayer answered. It is only answered by the believer living a holy life. If you truly pray this prayer in your heart then you truly desire to live a holy life dedicated to Christ. "Be ye holy; for I am holy." God's name is made holy by his children living holy lives.

"Thy Kingdom come."
--How many are willing to pray this prayer? In effect it is praying for the Lord Jesus to come again. Are you ready for his coming. If he should come right now would you be ready? Thy Kingdom come. Come Lord Jesus, come. For the unsaved person, all that would come would be terrible judgement and eternal condemnation. Do you think that he would want to pray this prayer? Now Christ offers to be your Saviour in this age of grace. But after He comes there will be no more grace. Then he will be your judge. The unsaved will have lost all chance of being saved.

Thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven."
Of course, as I have pointed out many times before, your heart may be in the right place, but you are not an angel, and it is impossible for you to carry out the will of God as it is done in heaven. You may try, and that is noble, but you cannot do it; it is impossible. However, even the attempt--are you willing? Are you willing to attempt to do God's will as it is done in heaven. That is full and complete surrender to the will of God. Paul said "I die daily." That is what one would have to do. There are few if any that can pray this prayer, and certainly no unsaved person.

Give us this day our daily bread.
--Of course this is what we all want from God--His provision.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
--The Lord puts a premium on forgiveness. All too often man holds grudges instead. But look what our Lord says:

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
--This is the conclusion of the prayer.
A request for deliverance, and a statement of praise--both of which an unsaved person is incapable of, unless the request for deliverance is that of salvation.
DHK

 

[tragic_pizza]

Perhaps in reciting the Lord's Prayer, the unsaved is drawn closer to repentance through the Holy Spirit.

 

[JFox1]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JFox1:
Now this beats all! I've NEVER heard of anyone making a major issue out of reading the Lord's Prayer during church services and claiming it's a "vain repetition". I would think it odd if my church didn't have the Lord's Prayer during worship.

So, does your church repeat the Lord's Prayer ten times or hundred times or thousand times on every Sunday? </font>[/QUOTE]NO!!!! This is so rediculous it's not even funny!

 

[Jim1999]

Quote:
Perhaps in reciting the Lord's Prayer, the unsaved is drawn closer to repentance through the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------------

This only works when "they" are quoting it. For us it is "vain repetition". Surely you get that!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Matt Black]

Ah yes.

I keep the Lord's commandments out of my great love for Him.
You are legalistic.
They are pagans indulging in vain repetition.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by JFox1:

Originally posted by JFox1:
NO!!!! This is so rediculous it's not even funny!

That's why I was thinking that you misunderstand what is the problem and issue on this discussion.

I didn't think many church or even RC or Pentecostal churches repeat the Lord's Prayer, to be a problem.

However, if anyone repeat the same prayer with the praying bead or so-called Rosario, then it is the problem pointed out by Lord Jesus at Mt 6:7.

Vain repetition means the repetition of the same prayer again and again at one place, so that the prayer may be heard and answered. Buddhist Monks make the same prayer again and again counting the number of prayers with praying beads. Monks at the monastry may have done the same, as far as I know. Some monk planed to pray the set prayer for 10,000 times without becoming angry by counting the number of the prayer with the beads, but somebody interupted him, then he forgot the counted number, then he re-started it. I heard that type of story several times.

When I attended a Catholic funeral, they prayed according to the prayer book, repeating the same prayer many times and they called it " Series Prayer". These are the problems. Lord's Prayer is a kind of guide prayer for those who need to learn how to pray and it may be helpful to the children who are learning, that is a basic guide. However, if we read the epistles which were written afterwards, none of them contains any prayer based on Prayer taught by Lord, none of them repeat the same prayer in there. It doesn't mean that Disciples violated the teaching of the Lord. We will follow the guidance of Holy Spirit when we pray, and Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus Christ and His atonement at the Cross that our sins were forgiven already by His Redemption. This makes a slight diffence or lead us to a deeper understanding about "forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors". We thank God for His forgiveness which was already rendered to us thru Jesus Christ, by Grace and Mercy.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by The Galatian:
We do it once during services. It is, after all, what Jesus told us to do. He did it publicly Himself, so I'm pretty sure He thought it was OK to do so.

That is OK, but the argument arose when somebody tried to defend the vain repetition.

 

[Jim1999]

The Holy Spirit must have multiple personalities because every dog and his uncle claims Holy Spirit endorsement for his beliefs.

I really think we must be careful about what we attribute to the Holy Spirit of God. Methinks He gets blamed for a lot of man's mischief.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Matt Black]

For the record, the Catholic Mass only has the Lord's Prayer once in it. The Rosary is of course a different matter - there one says a 'decade' ie:10 of the Lord's Prayer and then a decade of 'Hail Marys'. I guess that could constitute 'vain repetitions', but I think it would very much depend on the attitude of the pray-er.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

There is a difference between singing and praying. Christmas hymns declaring both the deity and virgin birth of Christ are sung throughout public malls during the Christmas season. That doesn't mean people are worshiping God, but the message of Christ is at least getting across in some way. Singing is giving praise to God. It is true that it is for the believer.

But the Lord's Prayer is a very specific prayer given in answer to a request by the disciples: "Lord, teach us to prayer." Not only was this a model prayer for a Christian, it was a model prayer for a disciple, one who is dedicated his life to following Christ. There is a big difference between singing:
"Christ the Lord is Risen Today"
and praying:
"Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
DHK

I disagree that there is a fundamental difference between the two. Paul tells us that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" in Romans 24:23, and we are told that "without faith it is impossible to please God" in Hebrews 11:6. The worship and prayers of the unsaved would all smell exactly the same to God.

I find it ridiculous and unbiblical to limit our expressions of corporate worship (including being led in prayer, the Lord's Prayer or otherwise) because of the presence of the unsaved.

I agree with the line-by-line commentary you posted on the Lord's Prayer.

Again, I see no problem with a recitation of the Lord's Prayer if it is being said sincerely as a prayer. The vain repitition of the heathens is, as we have established, praying over and over to the end that we may be heard. Perhaps the Catholics are guilty of that; not having ever been to a Catholic service myself, I don't know.

Michael