-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is Belief A Law?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jn 10
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2
48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Belief /Faith is a law, if you insist your believing, your faith caused Salvation for you, congratulations, you believe in law keeping salvation, which means you are deceived.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Anyone who will hear ? Thats Gods Elect or Sheep, they will hear Jn 10:16,26-27
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I understand the "all men" in that passage ( that the Lord had Paul write and describe to Timothy ) as all of His elect...such as the ones described here:
" And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." ( Revelation 5:9-10 )
and here:
" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." ( Revelation 7:9-10 ).
They are the exact same "world" that Christ died for in John 3...
The "whosoever believeth";
But for the longest time, ( up until roughly 6-7 years ago ) I believed that 1Timothy 2 passage almost the exact same way that you are using it.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I wish no offense towards you, @Silverhair, but the truth is that God doesn't send people that He loves to Hell.
He only sends those that hate Him and that He hates ( Psalms 5, Psalms 11 ), to everlasting punishment for their sins.
He does not send His precious elect, whom He sent His Son to die for ( and that He said He would lose none of ) to the Lake of Fire....neither did He send His Son to die for them.
That is the offense of the cross;
....That God chose a people before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 ) and sent His Son to die for them, and that the rest are reserved unto everlasting punishment;
A punishment that is fully deserving of God's enemies who hate Him in their hearts and refuse to repent of their sins.
From our past interactions, I sense that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an offense to you...that you don't like the fact that He has done as He wishes with His own. The ones that He clearly tells us:
" ...Behold, all souls are mine..."
Sir, there is nothing "warm and fuzzy" or "all-loving" about God that any preacher should be preaching about Him, save His love for those that have trusted in Him through His immutable word.
Paul's Gospel is nowhere addressed to anyone outside of that, nor was Peter's, nor was John's.
It is meant only for those that have been found in the grace of God strictly through His mercy...and that alone.
" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).
Belief is a "law" that no one outside of that will ever obey...
It's the evidence of someone whom God has saved from His wrath.
He only sends those that hate Him and that He hates ( Psalms 5, Psalms 11 ), to everlasting punishment for their sins.
He does not send His precious elect, whom He sent His Son to die for ( and that He said He would lose none of ) to the Lake of Fire....neither did He send His Son to die for them.
That is the offense of the cross;
....That God chose a people before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 ) and sent His Son to die for them, and that the rest are reserved unto everlasting punishment;
A punishment that is fully deserving of God's enemies who hate Him in their hearts and refuse to repent of their sins.
From our past interactions, I sense that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an offense to you...that you don't like the fact that He has done as He wishes with His own. The ones that He clearly tells us:
" ...Behold, all souls are mine..."
Sir, there is nothing "warm and fuzzy" or "all-loving" about God that any preacher should be preaching about Him, save His love for those that have trusted in Him through His immutable word.
Paul's Gospel is nowhere addressed to anyone outside of that, nor was Peter's, nor was John's.
It is meant only for those that have been found in the grace of God strictly through His mercy...and that alone.
" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).
Belief is a "law" that no one outside of that will ever obey...
It's the evidence of someone whom God has saved from His wrath.
Last edited:
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
To the elect nation of Israel. Are you a Jew KY?
Now if you mean it is applicable to Christians then yes it is for all those that have become one of the elect through trusting in God. You seem to forget that one is only elect when they are in Christ not before.
Here are a few passages that may apply (?), at least if we mistake "hate" to be an emotion on the part of God rather than an action related to the unbelievers actions:
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth"
"Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways"
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth"
"Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways"
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If God desires all to be saved are you reading that as "all the elect" to be saved? If you are then you are misreading the text.
The fact that God desires all to be saved does not necessitate that all will be saved.
Understanding 1 Ti 2:3-4 just as it is written does not cause a problem with Rev 5:9-10 or Rev 7:9-10.
By trusting scripture we see that it is only those that freely believe in Him that will be saved. John 3:18 Although Christ came into this world that all might be saved. John 3:17
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No offense taken. I understand that you are trying to defend your deterministic view.
After reading your comments three times I am saddened that you have such a low view of the biblical God.
It is not the God of the bible you present but the God as made by men. It is the calvinist version of God that you are presenting.
The God of the bible that loves His creation and desires all to be saved and has provided the various means by which man can know Him is nothing like the one you portray.
It is the God of calvinism that sends people to hell for no other reason than He can. Your deterministic God controls via decree all things and then you claim that man is actually responsible for the sin he was decreed to commit.
It saddens me greatly that so many will think themselves saved before they even trusted in Christ. That is contrary to scripture but is calvinism 101.
Gary "Wayne" Henderson
New Member
You don't need the Holy Spirit to follow the Law. Your conscience can handle that.Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Brother Glen
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Now this born again law keeper was surely ignorant but even the ignorant need the Holy Spirit to follow the law, you don't even know God or can serve him, without it... Brother Glen
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Actually that is the problem, no one can keep the law. Our conscience is a not a good guide. We can not even keep the laws we agree with. Ask yourself have you always kept the fifth commandment? Exodus 20:12 Or how about the tenth? Exodus 20:17
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Now this born again law keeper was surely ignorant but even the ignorant need the Holy Spirit to follow the law, you don't even know God or can serve him, without it... Brother Glen
As for knowing and serving God, look at the OT. Adam, Abraham, the Jews, etc. Both knew and served God without the Holy Spirit as He did not indwell people until after the cross.
Did the Holy Spirit convict people of their sin, yes, the bible supports that view. Did the Holy Spirit cause them to choose one way or another, No.
People can keep the law unless you think everyone was making idols and were just murdering thieves. While we all sin we all have the ability to make a conscious choice to sin or not in a given situation.
Silverhair you are forgetting this verse, the Holy Spirit did come after the cross but it came before it too!... Then explain this one?... Is the Holy Spirit the Holy Ghost?
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Holy men of God stated the prophecy by the Holy Ghost but the Holy Ghost after Jesus Christ ascended taught them the truth of it... Brother Glen
Now compare this with Exodus 5:2
Exodus 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go... IOW... I AM GOD!
Last edited:
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Silverhair you are forgetting this verse, the Holy Spirit did come after the cross but it came before it too!... Then explain this one?... Is the Holy Spirit the Holy Ghost?
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Holy men of God stated the prophecy by the Holy Ghost but the Holy Ghost after Jesus Christ ascended taught them the truth of it... Brother Glen
Now compare this with Exodus 5:2
Exodus 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go... IOW... I AM GOD!
Did you actually read what I posted?
"Holy Spirit as He did not indwell people until after the cross."
"Did the Holy Spirit convict people of their sin, yes,"
"Did the Holy Spirit cause them to choose one way or another, No."
What am I forgetting about 2 Peter 1:21? Actually how is it or Exodus 5:2 relevant to what I had posted?
Were those men indwelt by the "Holy Spirit",NO. Were they convicted of their sin, I would say they were.
Did the Holy Spirit influence what they would prophesy yes but did the Holy Spirit dictate the words that they would use, we have no way of knowing for sure but the text of scripture would lead you to conclude He did not.
What is the comparison that you are trying to make between 2 Peter 1:21 & Exodus 5:2
Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit since you do not seem to know that