Is believing/faith a work ?2

[C. E. Jonez]

Lol I don’t got my glasses I could very well pressed the repl on the wrong box sorry

I’m not sure what you mean. I was just responding to the thread in general and then to JD731’s response to my post.

Yea lookin at it lol I was having a discussion with Austin and you slipped in and I did look closely your icons apparently look alike when blurry lol sorry again

 

[CONSPICILLUM]

Yea because reading back on your comments if you are using faith as in a following sense then we’ve been in agreement all along because I rarely use it in the context because it’s one of my strong words for trust in God

Trust is elpis. Faith is pistis. Different words.

 

[CONSPICILLUM]

Lol I don’t got my glasses I could very well pressed the repl on the wrong box sorry

It was the right box. I just don’t process or express anything by the same terms and concepts you have shared.

 

[C. E. Jonez]

Trust is elpis. Faith is pistis. Different words.

I understand what your saying as for what the the words are as to the translation. I was being an ass assuming we where both expressing it in the same way Where I’m from that’s the common use that’s why when I feel like that maybe. The issue and not the actual discussion I try to give other words in its place. To show what I’m saying. I’m. From Louisiana vocabulary has a life of its own out here and when discussing Bible I forget a lot of people translate the original using words in the manner they were meant and not just using blah blah blah short story assuming is consistent when making a fool lol

 

[C. E. Jonez]

Then, if that is true, please do not act like we are in a non essential disagreement of what it takes for a sinner to be saved, which puts a condition on your salvation even when you insist there is none. And please, if you doubt my salvation because I am 180 degrees opposite from what you teach, do not be offended because I doubt yours.

And, misrepresenting those of us who can parse a verb and accuse us of teaching that works is a reward is simply not true. What discerning Christians teach is that justification and imputed righteousness from God is predicated upon the sinner believing what God says to him, with the evidence of his subsequent action of submission and obedience to him, is a lie. Christians believe in repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ, both acts of the will.

You have offended God the Father with your sins and he is the one who has condemned you. He is also the one, the only one who can justify you. That will take perfect righteousness. In the counsels of God he has, before Jesus the righteous Son of God came, imputed faith of the sinner who will believe what he said to them for the righteousness he required, then when Jesus came and offered himself, his blood was applied and washed away his sins and reconciliation between the sinner and God occurred at that precise time and the justified could then appear in the presence of God. I am not guessing about that. It is precisely what is taught in the epistle of Romans.


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Forebearance of God in OT times = righteousness through faith

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now (after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

See here:

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

God is wonderful and would like to save every sinner in the world but sinners must desire to be saved for it to happen.

Well said I would love to be able to put my explanation together in such clearly stated and orderly manner. Had I seen this earlier iwould have just quoted this for my responses

 

[AustinC]

We are all sinners and without repentance and redemption we can’t be reborn.

How do dead men repent before being reborn? Read Ephesians 2:1-9.

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

But if God chooses those he wants to redeem and if your not chosen regardless if you seek salvation then there would be no reason for anyone to care about seeking salvation or to put faith in God because he’s only gonna choose who he wants not who actual has faith and wants to be saved.

Read Romans 3:10-18.

As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don’t know where to find peace.” “They have no fear of God at all.”

And if this is to change how I see this first I’ll need something that says this because none of this does and second I never base my final beliefs on the words of man. I’ll need to see where God says this is how it works.

See the above passages.
Let's go farther.
Romans 8:28-33
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And not something referencing the law which is reference of Old Testament covenant which was abolished by the new covenant made with the sacrifice of Christ as the ultimate sacrifice

Let's take a look at the new covenant that is given to God's chosen people as a Will, written to those who will inherit salvation.
Hebrews 9:11-12,15-17,24,27-28

So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.

With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever. That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Read these passages and consider what God is telling you. Will you still foll Jesus when you realize that He is in control of your life and it is only because of his merciful choice to save you that you now believe.
The hymn writer, John Newton, called it this:
Amazing Grace

I encourage you to read your Bible. I once had similar views to your own, but in reading the Bible, I couldn't deny God's sovereign rule in choosing to be merciful to whom he wills.
Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, and not to be regarded as work per Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ." The verb!

If you condition salvation on a action of yours, that's salvation by your action, your works.

 

[Brightfame52]

[



Here is what Jesus Christ said about salvation. He should know about salvation if anyone knows. Read it with me.

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

There is no verse in scripture that modifies that clear and unambiguous statement.

Quoting this statement is a setup for the point I am getting ready to make. The point is that all salvation is not by grace as the first or operative principle of God although the grace of God figures into all salvation in some way. Salvation is the operative principle of salvation to gentiles and clear thinkers with a logical mind and a quiet confidence in the veracity of the words of scripture, both in the OT and in the New will affirm this.

Here is what I know. Salvation came to the Jewish nation by PROMISE as the first principle of God. This means that God has provided salvation to this nation because of his own promises in times past to do so. All the tabernacle worship ceremonies and the annual feasts were but types that were designed to instruct Israel in God's marvelous salvation. God provided the figures of the true sacrifice that could not in reality take away sin and he never brought the sacrifice himself. Israel came to the tabernacle with a sacrifice and made atonement by putting the substitute to death. God accepted that but it was God himself who ultimately brought the true sacrifice and put him to death and raised him 3 days later and now men are not making atonement for their sins, they are receiving the atonement that God has made by offering his own son. It takes reason and logic and will to make this transaction. There is nothing magical about this. One must know and understand God well enough, and himself well enough, to know he is in desperate need of forgiveness and Jesus is the only way. Working for righteousness is bringing one's own blood sacrifice to God as did the Jews but believing is to receive the righteousness by the sacrifice that God brought for us.

Salvation is visited upon gentiles because of Israel's national rejection of Christ. God gave Israel 40 years to receive his promise and when they refused to enter into his rest, and continued their temple worship with blood sacrifices, he responded by dispersing the whole nation from their own land and tore down their temple, not leaving one stone upon another. This happened in 70 AD and from this time the Jews were under governments of gentiles and considered by God as gentiles and their land covenants were kept in abeyance while he sought out a gentile bride for his son. This is his purpose in this age and this truth is revealed by the apostle Paul in his letters that are written to gentiles. All the 8 gentile women in the OT who were married to Jewish men, such as Ruth, Rebekah, Rahab, etc are typical of Jesus Christ, the Jew, and his gentile bride, who is awaiting the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I would like to remind you of a statement in the NT about the OT. Here it is.

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Salvation is based in the OT and is preparation for the salvation of God. The systematic theology of your crowd, BF, does not account for the truths taught in the OT. You make all those things nothing but figurative language

Because Ephesians is explaining the history of the inclusion of the gentiles into this purpose of God in forming his church, the body of Christ, with equal standing with the Jewish believing remnant, in this present age, the whole purpose is called by God as the mystery of Christ. It is not prophesied in the OT and therefore requires revelation, which God gave to Paul through the Spirit, he says in Ephesians 3. The connection to this truth in the OT is through the OT figures and shadows and types and similitudes.

The modern philosophies by which most men approach these great NT truths is sure to obscure the truths that God is revealing to us by these words. When I see the the comments of some here it is apparent they do not have a clue about these great mysteries of God that are revealed in the NT. Example, if God really did prechoose individual gentiles to be saved, why would he have written the following statement about gentiles?

.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

That is serious and it was gentiles before the blood of Christ was shed and before God included gentiles as part of the program in AD 40 or Actts 10.

Rabbit trail. Stick with the subject please.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not without faith, the noun, being given. Faith is the thing believed. One cannot believe without there being a thing believed. Faith believes. Therefore someone who has THE faith believes. THE faith is distinct from mere faith. The articular specifies a particular faith by a particular means from a particular source.

THE faith is not “a” faith. Everyone has “a” faith. Everyone acts according to the qualitative nature of their faith when they believe as an action. Any other faith than THE faith is not salvific and produces dead works. Mormons might be the best example, but examples are endless.

To believe is an action, that constitutes a work.

 

[37818]

If you condition salvation on a action of yours, that's salvation by your action, your works.

You assume wrong. Salvation is the sole work being God's doing following an act of faith according to God's will. Romans 4:5.

 

[37818]

To believe is an action, that constitutes a work.

Not according to the word of God, Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ."

 

[JD731]

Rabbit trail. Stick with the subject please.

The problem you are having is you do not know how to define bible salvation. So, everyone is speaking to one another here as if each person shares the same understanding and definitions as the collective. That is not true and I will start a thread later and title it something like this, "what is your definition of salvation" and I am fully confident that your definition will be off center and maybe even weird.

Under this thread title, faith and works, you are posting silly logic that does not even resemble the biblical doctrines of the Christian faith and your efforts seems to be to teach your own perverted Calvinism views and without any regard to context. So, I can understand why you would be offended that someone would attempt to correct you with the scriptures and you would think it a rabbit trail.

This is too important to get wrong, friend.

Salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by faith through grace like you teach. Faith is not a grace and it is not a work.

 

[AustinC]

You assume wrong. Salvation is the sole work being God's doing following an act of faith according to God's will. Romans 4:5.

You have the cart before the horse.
I will rephrase your assertion to correct it.
"Salvation is the sole work being God's doing according to God's will, which is the cause that initiates the effect known as faith."

Reading Hebrews 11, we see what faith is.
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
The best understanding of faith, that I have heard, comes from Pastor John Piper who explains faith as such:

Faith is the God given capacity to see beyond what the world sees and see the evidence that God has provided.
The world cannot see what the Christian sees because they do not have faith.
Jesus is the author of faith. He gives faith to all whom the Father has given him.

No unsaved, Godless, dead in trespasses, person can have faith to see what they, by their nature and slavery to sin, cannot possibly see. God must open their eyes so they can see, by faith.

Therefore, any attempt to give faith to a Godless person so that they are the cause that effects God is pure false teaching.

Finally, you need to stop this foolish cherry picking of sentences that ignore the context of God's word. Look at Paul's argument in Romans 4 and see that your assertion and claim is contrary to what Paul is saying.

Romans 4:1-8
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 8 pm EST / 5 pm PST

 

[Brightfame52]

A persons believing is a gracious gift God gives, its a preternatural operation enacted by God on spiritually dead people. Its given to a person to believe on Christ Phil 1:29 since its something men cannot naturally do.

 

[Brightfame52]

You assume wrong. Salvation is the sole work being God's doing following an act of faith according to God's will. Romans 4:5.

Once again
If you condition salvation on a action of yours, that's salvation by your action, your works.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not according to the word of God, Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ."

The word believeth in Rom 4:5 is in the active voice which means:

The subject as the doer or performer of the action. So thats a work !

 

[Brightfame52]

The problem you are having is you do not know how to define bible salvation. So, everyone is speaking to one another here as if each person shares the same understanding and definitions as the collective. That is not true and I will start a thread later and title it something like this, "what is your definition of salvation" and I am fully confident that your definition will be off center and maybe even weird.

Under this thread title, faith and works, you are posting silly logic that does not even resemble the biblical doctrines of the Christian faith and your efforts seems to be to teach your own perverted Calvinism views and without any regard to context. So, I can understand why you would be offended that someone would attempt to correct you with the scriptures and you would think it a rabbit trail.

This is too important to get wrong, friend.

Salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by faith through grace like you teach. Faith is not a grace and it is not a work.

Believing is an action of man, a work.

 

[37818]

The word believeth in Rom 4:5 is in the active voice which means:

The subject as the doer or performer of the action. So thats a work !

God's word says "to him that worketh not, but believeth." πιστευοντι active voice.

 

[37818]

If you condition salvation on a action of yours, that's salvation by your action, your works.

No amount of any man's work of any kind will save. So unless God saves because of His promise one is toast.