Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
martin mar
Is the reception of the gift your action and it resulted in God saving you ? Yes or No
Is the reception of the gift your action and it resulted in God saving you ? Yes or No
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Is believing/faith a work ?2
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CONSPICILLUM
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Faith / Belief is a noun. BelievING is a verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. Nouns verb. Things do. Faith believes. Therefore, all who “have” faith are able to believe. THE faith cometh by hearing (also a noun, which is the thing heard as the report/message) and hearing (again the noun, so not an action man accomplishes) by the Rhema of God (not Logos, and Rhema is anarthrous - referring to the qualitative characteristics and functional activity of the Word from Its source).
Much as no one can call anyone on the cellular network without a phone, no one can believe without faith. Faith believes. So once we have been given the thing that believes then we can believe according to THE message/report and have THE faith. This is all by means of the Rhema of God as the only valid source.
The noun (faith) can never be equivocated with the verb (believING). One is; the other does. And it’s the one that IS that does the doing. So it’s us having the one that IS that enables us to then be able to do. Unless and until THE faith (the articular means everything) comes out of/from THE message/report by means of the Rhema of God, it’s just “a” faith out of “a” message among many millions of reports from endless sources.
This grammatical issue has been the source of more doctrinal divisions among English speakers than any other source of schism.
Much as no one can call anyone on the cellular network without a phone, no one can believe without faith. Faith believes. So once we have been given the thing that believes then we can believe according to THE message/report and have THE faith. This is all by means of the Rhema of God as the only valid source.
The noun (faith) can never be equivocated with the verb (believING). One is; the other does. And it’s the one that IS that does the doing. So it’s us having the one that IS that enables us to then be able to do. Unless and until THE faith (the articular means everything) comes out of/from THE message/report by means of the Rhema of God, it’s just “a” faith out of “a” message among many millions of reports from endless sources.
This grammatical issue has been the source of more doctrinal divisions among English speakers than any other source of schism.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Believing or Faith is contrasted with works Salvation because one must be saved already in order to believe in Christ. So when you see verses like Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23
Rom 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
1 Cor 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1 Pet 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Believing is evidence of being in a saved state, not a condition to get into a saved state. When this truth is adhered to, its then believing is in contrast to works salvation or justification
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23
Rom 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
1 Cor 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1 Pet 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Believing is evidence of being in a saved state, not a condition to get into a saved state. When this truth is adhered to, its then believing is in contrast to works salvation or justification
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Believe is a verb, an action ! And the person performs the action !
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes, and not to be regarded as work per Romans 4:5, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth . . . ." The verb!
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Here is what Jesus Christ said about salvation. He should know about salvation if anyone knows. Read it with me.
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
There is no verse in scripture that modifies that clear and unambiguous statement.
Quoting this statement is a setup for the point I am getting ready to make. The point is that all salvation is not by grace as the first or operative principle of God although the grace of God figures into all salvation in some way. Salvation is the operative principle of salvation to gentiles and clear thinkers with a logical mind and a quiet confidence in the veracity of the words of scripture, both in the OT and in the New will affirm this.
Here is what I know. Salvation came to the Jewish nation by PROMISE as the first principle of God. This means that God has provided salvation to this nation because of his own promises in times past to do so. All the tabernacle worship ceremonies and the annual feasts were but types that were designed to instruct Israel in God's marvelous salvation. God provided the figures of the true sacrifice that could not in reality take away sin and he never brought the sacrifice himself. Israel came to the tabernacle with a sacrifice and made atonement by putting the substitute to death. God accepted that but it was God himself who ultimately brought the true sacrifice and put him to death and raised him 3 days later and now men are not making atonement for their sins, they are receiving the atonement that God has made by offering his own son. It takes reason and logic and will to make this transaction. There is nothing magical about this. One must know and understand God well enough, and himself well enough, to know he is in desperate need of forgiveness and Jesus is the only way. Working for righteousness is bringing one's own blood sacrifice to God as did the Jews but believing is to receive the righteousness by the sacrifice that God brought for us.
Salvation is visited upon gentiles because of Israel's national rejection of Christ. God gave Israel 40 years to receive his promise and when they refused to enter into his rest, and continued their temple worship with blood sacrifices, he responded by dispersing the whole nation from their own land and tore down their temple, not leaving one stone upon another. This happened in 70 AD and from this time the Jews were under governments of gentiles and considered by God as gentiles and their land covenants were kept in abeyance while he sought out a gentile bride for his son. This is his purpose in this age and this truth is revealed by the apostle Paul in his letters that are written to gentiles. All the 8 gentile women in the OT who were married to Jewish men, such as Ruth, Rebekah, Rahab, etc are typical of Jesus Christ, the Jew, and his gentile bride, who is awaiting the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I would like to remind you of a statement in the NT about the OT. Here it is.
Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Salvation is based in the OT and is preparation for the salvation of God. The systematic theology of your crowd, BF, does not account for the truths taught in the OT. You make all those things nothing but figurative language
Because Ephesians is explaining the history of the inclusion of the gentiles into this purpose of God in forming his church, the body of Christ, with equal standing with the Jewish believing remnant, in this present age, the whole purpose is called by God as the mystery of Christ. It is not prophesied in the OT and therefore requires revelation, which God gave to Paul through the Spirit, he says in Ephesians 3. The connection to this truth in the OT is through the OT figures and shadows and types and similitudes.
The modern philosophies by which most men approach these great NT truths is sure to obscure the truths that God is revealing to us by these words. When I see the the comments of some here it is apparent they do not have a clue about these great mysteries of God that are revealed in the NT. Example, if God really did prechoose individual gentiles to be saved, why would he have written the following statement about gentiles?
.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
That is serious and it was gentiles before the blood of Christ was shed and before God included gentiles as part of the program in AD 40 or Actts 10.
Here is what Jesus Christ said about salvation. He should know about salvation if anyone knows. Read it with me.
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
There is no verse in scripture that modifies that clear and unambiguous statement.
Quoting this statement is a setup for the point I am getting ready to make. The point is that all salvation is not by grace as the first or operative principle of God although the grace of God figures into all salvation in some way. Salvation is the operative principle of salvation to gentiles and clear thinkers with a logical mind and a quiet confidence in the veracity of the words of scripture, both in the OT and in the New will affirm this.
Here is what I know. Salvation came to the Jewish nation by PROMISE as the first principle of God. This means that God has provided salvation to this nation because of his own promises in times past to do so. All the tabernacle worship ceremonies and the annual feasts were but types that were designed to instruct Israel in God's marvelous salvation. God provided the figures of the true sacrifice that could not in reality take away sin and he never brought the sacrifice himself. Israel came to the tabernacle with a sacrifice and made atonement by putting the substitute to death. God accepted that but it was God himself who ultimately brought the true sacrifice and put him to death and raised him 3 days later and now men are not making atonement for their sins, they are receiving the atonement that God has made by offering his own son. It takes reason and logic and will to make this transaction. There is nothing magical about this. One must know and understand God well enough, and himself well enough, to know he is in desperate need of forgiveness and Jesus is the only way. Working for righteousness is bringing one's own blood sacrifice to God as did the Jews but believing is to receive the righteousness by the sacrifice that God brought for us.
Salvation is visited upon gentiles because of Israel's national rejection of Christ. God gave Israel 40 years to receive his promise and when they refused to enter into his rest, and continued their temple worship with blood sacrifices, he responded by dispersing the whole nation from their own land and tore down their temple, not leaving one stone upon another. This happened in 70 AD and from this time the Jews were under governments of gentiles and considered by God as gentiles and their land covenants were kept in abeyance while he sought out a gentile bride for his son. This is his purpose in this age and this truth is revealed by the apostle Paul in his letters that are written to gentiles. All the 8 gentile women in the OT who were married to Jewish men, such as Ruth, Rebekah, Rahab, etc are typical of Jesus Christ, the Jew, and his gentile bride, who is awaiting the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I would like to remind you of a statement in the NT about the OT. Here it is.
Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Salvation is based in the OT and is preparation for the salvation of God. The systematic theology of your crowd, BF, does not account for the truths taught in the OT. You make all those things nothing but figurative language
Because Ephesians is explaining the history of the inclusion of the gentiles into this purpose of God in forming his church, the body of Christ, with equal standing with the Jewish believing remnant, in this present age, the whole purpose is called by God as the mystery of Christ. It is not prophesied in the OT and therefore requires revelation, which God gave to Paul through the Spirit, he says in Ephesians 3. The connection to this truth in the OT is through the OT figures and shadows and types and similitudes.
The modern philosophies by which most men approach these great NT truths is sure to obscure the truths that God is revealing to us by these words. When I see the the comments of some here it is apparent they do not have a clue about these great mysteries of God that are revealed in the NT. Example, if God really did prechoose individual gentiles to be saved, why would he have written the following statement about gentiles?
.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
That is serious and it was gentiles before the blood of Christ was shed and before God included gentiles as part of the program in AD 40 or Actts 10.
CONSPICILLUM
Member
Not without faith, the noun, being given. Faith is the thing believed. One cannot believe without there being a thing believed. Faith believes. Therefore someone who has THE faith believes. THE faith is distinct from mere faith. The articular specifies a particular faith by a particular means from a particular source.
THE faith is not “a” faith. Everyone has “a” faith. Everyone acts according to the qualitative nature of their faith when they believe as an action. Any other faith than THE faith is not salvific and produces dead works. Mormons might be the best example, but examples are endless.
This is just an excellent point, Conspicillum. The capsule phrase that is used in the scripture to denote the body of faith that we might call the fundamentals is "the faith." This phrase first appears in scripture in Acts 3:16 and is used in this fashion a total of 42 times from there and is finalized in Re 14:12. Not coincidentally, the number 14 is God's number for salvation and his number 12 denotes his perfect government.
I am going to randomly post a few verses where the apostles wrote "the faith."
Ac 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Ac 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace [be] with thee. Amen.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
I encourage ones to read all 42 of the verses in the KJV. It will bless you.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
That makes no sense. You say that God gives us salvation and then we have faith? Am I correct in my understanding? Why would God the almighty creator whom we praise feel necessary to basically bribe us so that we believe in him. And have faith in him?
faith:
1.
a. Belief in God or in a set of religious doctrines.
b. A set of religious doctrines; a body of dogma:adhered to the Muslim faith.
c. often Faith Christianity Secure belief in God and atrusting acceptance of God's will viewed as atheological virtue.
2. Confident or unquestioning belief in the truth, value, ortrustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. See Synonymsat belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faithwith one's supporters; refused to break faith with hisfriends.
If what you say were the case it wouldn’t matter what someone believed. Are who they worshipped because God would grant them all salvation. And that wouldn’t mean they in turn become faithful and convert. It’s like thinking that in order to reform a prisoner you would first set him free. Not because he’s a changed man but because that’s the only way for him to become reformed.
either way one of the most well known verses in the Bible makes it very clear how it works.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
I know that it’s said to be redeemed and granted everlasting life and we must do is repent and ask for it. And it will granted. It doesn’t say anything about randomly redeeming people. I mean how would a Hindu, or Muslim feel if Jesus just decided to redeem them? I doubt it would bring new found faith and praise. Plus someone that doesn’t believe or have the faith that Jesus can actually do what he’s promised wouldn’t ask for forgiveness. Why ask someone for something you don’t think they can provide? A general description is a king doesn’t go out looking for his people to do for them. Servants go to the king to seek out what ever they may need. And we are servants of the Lord.
Ever read the story of Pauls conversion? Check out Acts 9.
Ever read Romans 3?
I suggest you spend time reading the Bible. It just might surprise you what God says about those who are drawn to believe.
God doesn't bribe us. God forcefully breaks in to free us from the shackles of sin, which enslaves us because we have rebelled against God.
Romans 1
Romans 2
Romans 3
Romans 4
Romans 5
Romans 6
Romans 7
Romans 8
Read these chapters. You will see that we are all wretched law breakers and rebels. Our just judgment is eternal damnation with no hope of any mercy.
But God chooses to be merciful to whom he wills. (Read Romans 9) God makes holy those whom He chooses. (Read Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2)
Even while we were dead in sins, God chose to make us alive with Christ.
God causes us to be made alive by His choosing us. Dead men don't choose. Upon choosing to make us alive, the effect is that we are given faith to believe.
All glory goes to God who is gracious and merciful to whom He wills.
Our problem is that we often don't think we are wretched. We think we're pretty good and that we are the ones who were smart and chose God.
Such thinking is not taught in the Bible. I encourage you. Read the Bible.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
I have I remember Paul being met by Jesus and losing his sight. Then upon following the instructions of Jesus and regaining his sight he then believed. In Christ as the messiah and changed from his old ways to be a follower of Jesus.
And reading this I see it explaining by having faith in Jesus and believing we receive , not we receive so we have faith and believe. That’s what surrendering is all about believing without seeing faithfully obeying and in return being blessed in the spirit
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”
Romans 3:21-26 NIV
And reading this I see it explaining by having faith in Jesus and believing we receive , not we receive so we have faith and believe. That’s what surrendering is all about believing without seeing faithfully obeying and in return being blessed in the spirit
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”
Romans 3:21-26 NIV
C. E. Jonez
New Member
We are all sinners and without repentance and redemption we can’t be reborn. But if God chooses those he wants to redeem and if your not chosen regardless if you seek salvation then there would be no reason for anyone to care about seeking salvation or to put faith in God because he’s only gonna choose who he wants not who actual has faith and wants to be saved. And if this is to change how I see this first I’ll need something that says this because none of this does and second I never base my final beliefs on the words of man. I’ll need to see where God says this is how it works. And not something referencing the law which is reference of Old Testament covenant which was abolished by the new covenant made with the sacrifice of Christ as the ultimate sacrifice
CONSPICILLUM
Member
This is a refection of the Greek definite article. Unlike English, it’s intensely specific and particular, not just designating the/this/that from a/an. The Greek article is exponentially more expressive than in English, and Greek has no indefinite article.
THE faith is not the same as faith without the Greek article. Faith is so particularized by the article that English can’t even begin to make the same emphasis or distinction/s.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
Let me try a different approach I feel we are getting entangled in a mess of repetition. What I’m trying to say is this.
I know I’m not perfect. Perfection is Gods and a reason I seek him. Because I believe he’s real. I believe Jesus died as a sacrifice for us to be able to. Obtain salvation. I have unwavering faith in Gods ability to do all things and faith in every thing he promises will be done. His love for us is unconditional and all that is asked of us is that love in return. That love isn’t a work it’s a sign of affection and if we did it because we were told versus because we truly loved then it wouldn’t mean anything. And God being omnipotent has no need to make us love him it’s the fact we get the choice that we understand we aren’t worthy but he loves us anyway so anyone that’s not completely heartless would see this and naturally come to him to forgive us.
I know I’m not perfect. Perfection is Gods and a reason I seek him. Because I believe he’s real. I believe Jesus died as a sacrifice for us to be able to. Obtain salvation. I have unwavering faith in Gods ability to do all things and faith in every thing he promises will be done. His love for us is unconditional and all that is asked of us is that love in return. That love isn’t a work it’s a sign of affection and if we did it because we were told versus because we truly loved then it wouldn’t mean anything. And God being omnipotent has no need to make us love him it’s the fact we get the choice that we understand we aren’t worthy but he loves us anyway so anyone that’s not completely heartless would see this and naturally come to him to forgive us.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
That’s explaining the different definitions of faith? Correct. I’m not using faith to represent a faith like in a religious faith. (Christian faith, Hindu faith, etc) I’m using it to describe trust, belief, undoubting of one ability’s,intentions,and keeping their promises. If that helps us to find better understanding of our discussion?
C. E. Jonez
New Member
Yea because reading back on your comments if you are using faith as in a following sense then we’ve been in agreement all along because I rarely use it in the context because it’s one of my strong words for trust in God
CONSPICILLUM
Member
I’m not sure what you mean. I was just responding to the thread in general and then to JD731’s response to my post.
C. E. Jonez
New Member
Lol I don’t got my glasses I could very well pressed the repl on the wrong box sorryI’m not sure what you mean. I was just responding to the thread in general and then to JD731’s response to my post.
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