Is believing/faith a work ?2

[AustinC]

I dare say the problem is with one's understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 is confusing the gift of salvation with the faith that God requires without merit do to one's faith [Romans 4:4-5]. [Also because 2 Timothy 2:25, God gives the ability to have that faith].

I bet you don't see your own contradiction in your statement.
You nullify grace and make it merited favor. Yet, I am sure you don't see it.

 

[37818]

I bet you don't see your own contradiction in your statement.
You nullify grace and make it merited favor. Yet, I am sure you don't see it.

I bet you do not see your false accusation of merit where there is none.

 

[AustinC]

I bet you do not see your false accusation of merit where there is none.

No false accusation on my part, but you do prove my point.

 

[JD731]

JD, you wrote a lot of words to say nothing. Moreso, you ignored the text and instead rambled about nothing. It is clear you have not studied Romans, nor do you understand what Paul's argument is. I suggest you do so before responding in the future.

AustinC, thank you for that. But I do not think I was rambling in my comments. I think I was addressing the context of Romans relative to "this present time" and to the people groups that Paul is addressing in this epistle. It is 1) to Israel, as he goes all the way back to Abraham and explains why they have not realized the fulfillment of their national covenants, it was because of unbelief, and 2), to the remnant of Israel, believers in Jesus Christ, and those only of Israel who have received the blessings of the New Covenant, called the remnant according to the election of grace. A remnant because only a few of the whole believed. 3) the gentile believers, who are included at a later time as partakers of the spiritual blessings (son ship, the gift of the Spirit, forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ) after it is clear Israel will reject the New Covenant through her national rulers and hold onto the Mosaic Covenant, which could do nothing but condemn them.

Following is the summation of all he has said to and about Israel, the nation, beginning in Rom 7:1.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(what does Paul say Israel was seeking for in this context? Does he say? Can we know? The answer is yes to both questions. Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God)

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

I will let you answer the last question in v 12 in the context of your theological system.

For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

Here Paul introduces the thoughts he will expand on in Romans 9. He informs us that he is not going to be speaking literally, but will be speaking figuratively.

In the quote above you have given us a foundational doctrine and a fundamental of your faith as it relates to the way you view the scriptures going forward. You are advancing the hermeneutic of spiritualization of the present statements of scripture and what is declared to come to pass in the future. Just one of the problems with that approach is that your conclusions cannot be tested by the words of scripture and interpretations can vary greatly between one person and another. It is a slippery slope and is a good lesson in why we should believe the words of scripture.

Your reference to the Jew in Romans 2 is a good indicator why you are wrong. You comment as if you believe God is attempting to make true Jews from all those whom he saves, but that is far from the truth. The contrast that Paul is making is between the Jew who is obedient to God because of his heart's desire to do so and the Jew who merely boasts in the law and yet violates it by being disobedient to the law's demands. I am so surprised to see someone as intelligent as you fall prey to such an obvious misapplication of the scriptures in this instance.

Romans 2 and the true Jew deserves it's own thread. I will attempt to find the right forum and post a new thread on the subject soon.

 

[AustinC]

AustinC, thank you for that. But I do not think I was rambling in my comments. I think I was addressing the context of Romans relative to "this present time" and to the people groups that Paul is addressing in this epistle. It is 1) to Israel, as he goes all the way back to Abraham and explains why they have not realized the fulfillment of their national covenants, it was because of unbelief, and 2), to the remnant of Israel, believers in Jesus Christ, and those only of Israel who have received the blessings of the New Covenant, called the remnant according to the election of grace. A remnant because only a few of the whole believed. 3) the gentile believers, who are included at a later time as partakers of the spiritual blessings (son ship, the gift of the Spirit, forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ) after it is clear Israel will reject the New Covenant through her national rulers and hold onto the Mosaic Covenant, which could do nothing but condemn them.

Following is the summation of all he has said to and about Israel, the nation, beginning in Rom 7:1.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(what does Paul say Israel was seeking for in this context? Does he say? Can we know? The answer is yes to both questions. Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God)

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

I will let you answer the last question in v 12 in the context of your theological system.



In the quote above you have given us a foundational doctrine and a fundamental of your faith as it relates to the way you view the scriptures going forward. You are advancing the hermeneutic of spiritualization of the present statements of scripture and what is declared to come to pass in the future. Just one of the problems with that approach is that your conclusions cannot be tested by the words of scripture and interpretations can vary greatly between one person and another. It is a slippery slope and is a good lesson in why we should believe the words of scripture.

Your reference to the Jew in Romans 2 is a good indicator why you are wrong. You comment as if you believe God is attempting to make true Jews from all those whom he saves, but that is far from the truth. The contrast that Paul is making is between the Jew who is obedient to God because of his heart's desire to do so and the Jew who merely boasts in the law and yet violates it by being disobedient to the law's demands. I am so surprised to see someone as intelligent as you fall prey to such an obvious misapplication of the scriptures in this instance.

Romans 2 and the true Jew deserves it's own thread. I will attempt to find the right forum and post a new thread on the subject soon.

You clearly do not understand who Israel is and how Paul uses the term.

Galatians 3:7-14

The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.” So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith. But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.” But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.

I wish you had eyes to see.

 

[37818]

No false accusation on my part, but you do prove my point.

Your denial of making a false accusation of "merit."

You nullify grace and make it merited favor. Yet, I am sure you don't see it.

 

[Brightfame52]

I dare say the problem is with one's understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 is confusing the gift of salvation with the faith that God requires without merit do to one's faith [Romans 4:4-5]. [Also because 2 Timothy 2:25, God gives the ability to have that faith].

I dont know what you talking about sir.

 

[JD731]

You clearly do not understand who Israel is and how Paul uses the term.

Galatians 3:7-14

The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.” So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith. But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.” But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.

I wish you had eyes to see.

Amen, AustinC, God has answered your prayer and has given me eyes to see. The first verse of your quote in Ga 3:7 says this:

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Two things here; 1) this statement does not say we which are of faith are spiritual Jews. The idea would be silly in light of the fact that he says a few verses later in verse 28 the following: 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. What he is dealing with in calling Abraham father is in relation to the Abrahamic covenant and the blessing of his nation/family and by extension the nations of the world. The blessing is that we will be sons of God through faith in God’s Son, Jesus Christ.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The point here is that Abraham was the first to believe in the miraculous born son without human ability or prerogative after any possibility of flesh to achieve what God had promised. Anyone with this kind of faith will be saved through this son of God. We are told this here and this is the blessing of the Abrahamic covenant.

Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



Abraham is a physical type of God the Father, Isaac is the physical type of the promised seed and the miraculous born Son of God, and Sarah is a type of Israel, through whom the Son was born in the fullness of time, a short time before she died.

And 2) the word therefore in Verse 7 demands that we understand that what he is about to say following is a conclusion of what he has said before. What did he say before?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Conclusion. The Spirit of Christ given to indwell the believer in Christ is the righteousness that God has imputed to us after the pattern of Abrahams faith in Gen 15 when he believed for the first time that God would keep the promise in his covenant concerning the seed through a miraculous birth through Sarah and the Mosaic covenant, which was a temporary addendum to the Abrahamic covenant, has not changed that fact at all.
One can see in Verse one of this chapter how one must obey the truth, which is defined by believing in Christ.



The take away from Ga 3 is that God will save anyone who believes in Jesus Christ his son, Jew or gentile, and will be born again by receiving the Spirit of Christ who is given by faith without works, as in Abraham and not in Moses.



I maybe could have said this a little better, but you should understand it. I say all this because I know that you as a Calvinist insists that faith is a work unless God infuses faith to those whom he has previously chosen to save. This is the greatest chapter in the bible to correct that silly idea.

Receiving the Spirit is the definition of salvation.

 

[37818]

I dont know what you talking about sir.

It would seem so. It seems to me, your belief system blinds your mind of the ability to understandInd what seems contrary to what you believe.

The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the salvation not the faith.

The "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 precedes the gift of being "saved."

 

[AustinC]

Amen, AustinC, God has answered your prayer and has given me eyes to see. The first verse of your quote in Ga 3:7 says this:

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Two things here; 1) this statement does not say we which are of faith are spiritual Jews. The idea would be silly in light of the fact that he says a few verses later in verse 28 the following: 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. What he is dealing with in calling Abraham father is in relation to the Abrahamic covenant and the blessing of his nation/family and by extension the nations of the world. The blessing is that we will be sons of God through faith in God’s Son, Jesus Christ.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The point here is that Abraham was the first to believe in the miraculous born son without human ability or prerogative after any possibility of flesh to achieve what God had promised. Anyone with this kind of faith will be saved through this son of God. We are told this here and this is the blessing of the Abrahamic covenant.

Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



Abraham is a physical type of God the Father, Isaac is the physical type of the promised seed and the miraculous born Son of God, and Sarah is a type of Israel, through whom the Son was born in the fullness of time, a short time before she died.

And 2) the word therefore in Verse 7 demands that we understand that what he is about to say following is a conclusion of what he has said before. What did he say before?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Conclusion. The Spirit of Christ given to indwell the believer in Christ is the righteousness that God has imputed to us after the pattern of Abrahams faith in Gen 15 when he believed for the first time that God would keep the promise in his covenant concerning the seed through a miraculous birth through Sarah and the Mosaic covenant, which was a temporary addendum to the Abrahamic covenant, has not changed that fact at all.
One can see in Verse one of this chapter how one must obey the truth, which is defined by believing in Christ.



The take away from Ga 3 is that God will save anyone who believes in Jesus Christ his son, Jew or gentile, and will be born again by receiving the Spirit of Christ who is given by faith without works, as in Abraham and not in Moses.



I maybe could have said this a little better, but you should understand it. I say all this because I know that you as a Calvinist insists that faith is a work unless God infuses faith to those whom he has previously chosen to save. This is the greatest chapter in the bible to correct that silly idea.

Receiving the Spirit is the definition of salvation.

All this and you still cannot grasp that the Israel of God is and always has been the people of the promise who receive faith to believe. All that I have shown you in God's Word speaks to this truth and yet you keep trying to wiggle around it and avoid this truth by attempting to explain it away.
So be it. Ignore God's truth if you must.

 

[Brightfame52]

Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

This scripture identifies with those of mans religion that promote that salvation is the reward for the merit of repentance or believing. Those with that mindset have totally forsaken the truth of Salvation by Grace through Faith Eph 2:8 !

 

[Brightfame52]

It would seem so. It seems to me, your belief system blinds your mind of the ability to understandInd what seems contrary to what you believe.

The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the salvation not the faith.

The "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 precedes the gift of being "saved."

Sounds like works salvation to me.

 

[37818]

Sounds like works salvation to me.

It would seem so. It seems to me, your belief system blinds your mind of the ability to understandInd what seems contrary to what you believe.

The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the salvation not the faith.

The "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 precedes the gift of being "saved."

To not believe the salvation to be solely the gift is to believe in a works salvation.

 

[AustinC]

To not believe the salvation to be solely the gift is to believe in a works salvation.

I don't see how your assertion is true. Explain please.

 

[DaveXR650]

I know that you as a Calvinist insists that faith is a work unless God infuses faith to those whom he has previously chosen to save. This is the greatest chapter in the bible to correct that silly idea.

JD. I'm not sure I follow what you and Austin were going at but I don't think the above is right in that God infuses faith is a Calvinist position. Do you have a reference? (I admit my Calvinist credentials are questioned by some on here.)

 

[Brightfame52]

To not believe the salvation to be solely the gift is to believe in a works salvation.

To believe that salvation is conditioned on your act of believing is works salvation.

 

[JD731]

JD. I'm not sure I follow what you and Austin were going at but I don't think the above is right in that God infuses faith is a Calvinist position. Do you have a reference? (I admit my Calvinist credentials are questioned by some on here.)

1) The ordo salutis of Calvinism that has regeneration before saving Faith. Try to figure that out.

2) The teaching that a man is dead and must first be given life so that he might be given faith so he he may be given life. The person who believes he is smart because he believes that circular reasoning is a deceived man. Don't you agree that faith is infused if this is true?

 

[atpollard]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

This is Christianity 101...so I thought.

Is belief no longer necessary for salvation?

25 “I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them. “The works that I do in my Father’s name testify about me. 26 But you don’t believe because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” [John 10]

• According to Christianity 101, what separates a His sheep (that hear and follow and believe and receive eternal life) from "not of my sheep" that do not believe what they have seen and been told ... is it "the Father has given them (My sheep) to me"?
  
• Belief IS NECESSARY for salvation ... and salvation IS NECESSARY for belief. The whole shebang is a gift from God ... "For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --" [Ephesians 2:8 CSB] ... "saved" is the gift and "grace" is the gift and "faith" is the gift because "saved by grace through faith" is the gift. [its a verb tense thing.]

 

[atpollard]

JD. I'm not sure I follow what you and Austin were going at but I don't think the above is right in that God infuses faith is a Calvinist position. Do you have a reference? (I admit my Calvinist credentials are questioned by some on here.)

Not sure of their argument but ... "For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one." [Romans 12:3 CSB] ... God gives each 'a measure of faith', right?

 

[DaveXR650]

1) The ordo salutis of Calvinism that has regeneration before saving Faith. Try to figure that out.

Faith is really just the hand that receives the gift, or the cable that connects you to Christ or the instrument of your justification. That's why I have been saying that it simply cannot be a "work" by any biblical definition of works. There are enough scripture verses that indicate that we in our natural state are prone to self centeredness and have enough of a carnal mindset that we simply cannot muster a true understanding of the danger we are in and the importance and value of what Christ has done so we believe that the Holy Spirit has to actually do something in us - which we call being regenerated or born again.

2) The teaching that a man is dead and must first be given life so that he might be given faith so he he may be given life. The person who believes he is smart because he believes that circular reasoning is a deceived man. Don't you agree that faith is infused if this is true?

We say faith is a gift because in regeneration you are changed and then given the ability to truly come to Christ in faith and the regeneration is done to you. No, the faith is not "infused" and YOU have to do the believing. The Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 9 goes into that. So, to your last question, no, faith is not infused, and your circular reasoning is either a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the Calvinist position or you are misinformed. There is a certain level of intelligence necessary to discuss theology as this thread illustrates. What we all need to keep in mind though is that regarding our salvation, we come into the kingdom as a little child or we don't come at all.