Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I just explained what I meant.
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Is believing/faith a work ?2
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Then I have no idea what your explanation is. Care to restate it for me?
I understand these verses in context. The epistle to the Hebrews is addressed to the Hebrews. Many commentators have never figured that out. They read it as if it were addressed to them.
About covenants. Search the scriptures and you will find that all covenants, of which there are four, is given and pertain first and foremost to the nation and people of God, Israel. This includes the New Covenant, which was instituted at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I am not guessing about that. We have 200 years previous to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross and his resurrection when gentiles were the enemies of both God and his people and when no gentile had a covenant relationship with God and no blood sacrifice by which they could be atoned for their sins.
The cross of Jesus Christ established a way to God. What we know from the fall of Adam is that there is no approach to God without a blood sacrifice. He made atonement for Israel first and by extension for the sins of the whole world. All men, hearing what God has done for them through Christ, that is to impute his righteousness to any and all who will come on bended knee so to speak and in the name of Jesus Christ trusting that he actually did propitiate God and appease his wrath against sin by enduring it himself.
What a glorious truth that we have a message to the world that God will save them through Jesus Christ, his son. WOW!
Let me begin proving the truth of the gospel to you and if you want we can continue to discuss it but I expect a man who calls himself a Christian to believe the words of scripture and to honor prophetic, historical, and ethnical and literary context and make differences where God makes differences.
First, this is what God says to and about Israel . I want you to believe the words.
Rom 9:I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Now, Paul said under inspiration that the covenants, along with some other things from OT times, pertained to Israel. Just for clarity let me say that this epistle was not written until there was history of Christianity and experience of Israel and gentiles must be explained because of that history. Israel had an OT relationship with God and the gentiles did not. Yet at the time this epistle was written the gentiles were included and were equal with the Jews. This was strange to Jews and unacceptable to most of them. Here is the time frame of this epistle.
Romans was written in 58 A D, the sixth of Paul's epistles and the seventh NT epistle.
For seven years, Acts 2 through 7, the gospel was not preached to anyone but the Jews in Jerusalem and Judaea.
The killing of Stephan was the official rejection of Israel of the New Covenant and in Chapter 8 the gospel preaching was broadened to Samaritans. The preachers remained the same, the 12 apostles and the 70 prophets of Christ, who had been trained by him for the job.
Paul, the man who would be chosen of God to take the gospel to the gentiles was saved in 37 A D.
He was given special comprehensive revelation of this age in 7 mysteries and he wrote 13 letters to gentiles explaining those mysteries that were hidden in the counsel of God.
Paul was in training for 3 years.
Meanwhile, it was Peter, the man with the keys to the kingdom of God, according to Matt 16, who opened the door of faith to gentiles when God sent him to the home of the Italian gentile Roman centurion in 40 AD to do the job.
Now, you should read and believe what Paul said about his own ministry as he addressed gentiles and explained the history that they had already witnessed and what he called the revelation of the mystery of Christ which is in capsule form in a single verse, Eph 3:6. We understand that gentiles were made partakers of the spiritual blessings of Israel's New Covenant, and at this point only the spiritual blessings of that covenant were experienced by anyone. The spiritual blessings are the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Spirit of Christ whose presence in our bodies is a new birth into the family of God.
This is what he said in this context of the mystery of Christ about gentiles before Acts 10.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Gentiles are made nigh to God by the blood of Jesus Christ. God made no covenants with gentile nations but has made us partakers of the New Covenant with Israel.
The following words actually meant something in 58 A D when they were written and still means the same thing today.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
The only person who was chosen before the world began is Jesus Christ. Thanks for listening so far.
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Two statements.
1) Hebrews is a sermon given to Jewish Christians, some who were considering abandonment of the faith to revert back to Judaism. The speaker painstakingly explains how much greater Jesus, and His New Covenant, is over the old Mosaic Covenant. The New Covenant is for all Christians.
2) If Jesus is the only person chosen before the foundation of the world, then you must think God is lying in Ephesians 1.
All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.
~ Ephesians 1:3-6
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
First and foremost to be Justified by Faith and it not be our work, it must be the subjective faith of Christ in His Suretyship obedience and faithfulness unto will of God for us that Justifies us before God, otherwise, justified by our own faith is nothing but being justified by our works, something done by us, which is flat out contrary to justification by grace.85
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If you cant understand it, nothing I can do. Start back at the OP and reread my points that I have already explained.
The New Covenant is a promise to those who are the physical lineage of Abraham through Jacob and was prefigured in many ways by the religious ordinances they practiced for 1500 years before Jesus Christ fulfilled them all, but it's application to gentiles was a matter of the grace and mercy of God. Paul did not preach to gentiles as if they knew anything previously about them. Compare his sermon to Jews in Acts 13 to his sermon to gentiles in Acts 17 and you will get the point.
A word about the heirs of God.
We, those who are sons of God, whether Jews or gentiles, through faith in Christ are not just heirs, but we are joint heirs with Christ. In other words the New Covenant gives us benefits, the same benefits as Christ has but these are reserved in heaven for us. Let me just quote God saying that.
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Here is what is hoped for:
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The salvation here is not of the soul but of the collective body.
Now, AustinC I know some things about the inheritance and why it is that God says we sit together in heavenly places in Christ. It is because God in eternity past chose Jesus Christ. But, in this time he fashioned his body on the earth. Jesus Christ is the head of the body but the body is still his body. We are one in Christ and he is in us who believe and are saved.When God sees the church collectively he sees Jesus Christ. Who else would he see if we are indeed the body of Christ? His purpose is to fashion this body into a functioning entity.
I do not want to make this post about the inheritance, but it is a will we are speaking of. There is an inheritance. and as it concerns the church of Jesus Christ, which is his body, then you must understand that there is a oneness even in it. We are joint heirs with Christ, meaning the inheritance is not diminished by individual participation. What he has we have because we are one with him and with one another.
Next, one must understand that all the members of the Godhead are involved in our redemption in different functions, I am not guessing about that. One must understand that the Spirit of Christ not only indwells the believer in Christ, quickening him, but also baptizes (immerses) the believer into the body of Christ as a functioning member of the body. God justifies the believer and chooses all who the Spirit puts into the body of Christ because he has chosen Christ.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
Jesus Christ is a Jew. If the covenants apply to Israel then we are as gentiles made partakers of the Jewish covenants by being in Christ and God does not see us a male, female, bond, free, Jew or gentiles, he says, but he sees us as Christ because we are in him. This is how the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant applies to us in this age.
You are wrong about your application of Eph 1:4. You are cheating yourself out of light by holding on to that view.
I highlighted the points in red.
Your very first sentence is false. The New Covenant is given to the Children of the Promise. Paul makes it very clear in both Romans 2 and Romans 9 as well as Galatians 3 that the children of the Promise are the Israel of God, not by circumcision.
Second you say we have the same benefits of Christ. That would either make us equal with God, or it would make Jesus Christ less than God. In either case, what you write is false doctrine.
You then change the meaning of salvation from what orthodox Christianity has taught to some bizarre collective that is just utterly false.
Next, you once again make Jesus less than God by saying God chose Jesus as though Jesus was one of the myriad of angels.
Finally, not all the Covenants were to Jews. Adam was not a Jew when God covenanted that from him would come the Promised One who would crush the serpents head.
Abraham was not a Jew, but was a man from Mesopotamia that God made a Covenant with that would bless all nations. The New Covenant, as already stated is given yo the Children of God from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
JD, any discerning person reading your post will bristle at the false doctrines you have proclaimed. Wherever you attend church, you need to go find a church that teaches truth, because what you are teaching is not what God teaches.
My first sentence is not false. Unlike you I quoted Romans 9 that names the covenants and the promises, etc. as pertaining to Israel, who are the people of God. I do not know which part of Ga 3 you are speaking of, you do not say and the same goes for Romans 2. If you feel confident that those verses in those chapters conflicts with what Paul says in Romans 9 you should prove it other than just saying it.
The fact that Jesus Christ is God does not make him less than man. When the scriptures say we are heirs and joint heirs with Christ and you disagree, you will need to state a biblical reason, in context, why you disagree. Or you will need to tell us what a joint heir is in that the rest of us are missing.
No, it is not false but it is different from what you teach. You are here to teach your brand of Calvinism which demands you reject the central theme of the epistle to the Ephesians which is to present and explain the mystery of Christ, which is clearly stated as Jews and gentiles together equally in one body, thus forming one new man, not a new Israel as you suggest.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew & gentile) one new man, so making peace;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Jesus Christ is not less than God and I have never in my whole life suggested anything like that, but neither is he less than man in his incarnation. Not only was he a man, but he was a Jewish man and it was he who told the woman at the well of Samaria in Jn 4 that salvation is of the Jews.
Okay, I admit I was using Jew in the sense of the linage of Abraham and Jesus Christ going back to Adam (Lk 3:38) and will accept correction on that point. However, it was to Abraham, the father of Israel when this miraculous seed was identified and prefigured as coming through this nation in Gen 15.
I hope you have a sharp pen knife and you just cut things out of your translation if you will not believe them.I quoted verses which said Jesus was keeping promises he had made during the OT to Israel while I quoted verses in Ephesians 2:11-13 that said 5 devastating things about gentiles during those times, not the least of which they did not have any promises, which left us with no hope. But there are reasons that God included the gentiles in his blessings and he tells us what they are if you believe the words.
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (His people are Israel)
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (of Israel)
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
If people who have no promises of salvation and no hope of receiving salvation are suddenly offered it as a gift and on no merits of their own, then that defines grace and grace is the principle of gentiles salvation. This is what Paul stated in Ephesians that God has done for us. He is two things. 1) he is the apostle of grace, and 2) he is the apostle to the gentiles. See Eph 3.
You will need to do a better job than you have so far of proving that what I teach is not what the scriptures says. If you can prove it by believing the words you read and honoring context then I promise to believe you.
Joint heir does not mean equal heir. Jesus is the firstborn, God the Son. We are adopted children. We receive an Inheritance, but it is not equal with God the Son.
JD, it is clear you don't understand the Covenants God has made, which is why you miss the point. I am sure others who have more time can do a deeper dive in breaking down your error.
AustinC, I appreciate getting to discuss such great doctrines of the faith and I am not here to win an argument as a first option. It is my belief that Calvinists have a very seriously flawed approach to the scriptures. You understand it from your standpoint that it is a book of religion and dismiss the literal and historical context. I remember reading the book by Alexander Scroogie called "The Unfolding Drama of Redemption" and whatever one thinks of his theology the title was just a great title because that is exactly what the story of God is.
Let me illustrate how the words that are spoken in the scriptures have little to no impact on theology systems such as yours. You said the following.
:"Joint heir does not mean equal heir. Jesus is the firstborn, God the Son. We are adopted children".
Now here is something that the scriptures absolutely declares.
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
Now I admit there are several things I do not understand about adoption but I know this, the words I have just posted are easy to understand. I know it is not just fluff to fill up space. Because of a clear unambiguous statement like Rom 9:4 my study on adoption will take this fact into account and will start from there. I will search to see if that statement has been modified anywhere by God in other portions of scriptures. If I find a modification then I will adapt my understanding likewise but if not, I will stand on a clear scripture and study and pray and wait until God gives me more light on the subject. I will not deny a clear statement while I am waiting.
One thing I know from reading is that Paul wrote Romans 9:4 in the present tense. This means that in 58 AD there were people who were Israelites in ethnicity. And I know from the text that the adoption pertained to them. What then is the present tense? It was 18 years after the door of faith was opened to the gentiles as recorded in the historical record of the book of Acts, chapter 10, when Cornelius and his household were the first gentiles to be saved by receiving the Holy Ghost into their bodies by faith in what the preacher said about Jesus Christ. The present tense in 58 A D was 28 years after the resurrection and ascension to heaven of Jesus Christ and the pouring out upon Israel from heaven of the Holy Ghost in 30 A D.
Romans 9:4 is foundational to the NT doctrine of adoption.
Here is what I know from experience. Romans 9:4 will have no impact at all on most people who have a theological system already developed. There is no correcting their theology with the scriptures.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If we believe and teach that a sinner is justified before God by their own action of faith/believing, then we by default are teaching justification by ones meritorious act, whether its admitted or not.
You wrote:
"You understand it from your standpoint that it is a book of religion and dismiss the literal and historical context."
What you stated is patently false.
Context is everything in scripture and the style of literature will help us know whether the author is being literal.
For example when the psalmist tells us that God hides us under his wings, we know that God doesn't have wings where he hides us. It’s not literal. Instead, it's poetic. When John is writing Revelation he is using apocalyptic language, which is not literal. The context informs us.
Now, let's explore Romans 9,which flows from earlier chapters. To do so, let's look at earlier passages.
First, Romans 2:28-29.
For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
Here Paul introduces the thoughts he will expand on in Romans 9. He informs us that he is not going to be speaking literally, but will be speaking figuratively.
Second, Romans 8:29-30 where we see Paul speak of God's people. We know from Romans 2 that they are more than descendants, genetically, from Abraham.
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
Now Romans 9:1-24, which lays out the whole argument (you are failing to read the whole context and are actually doing what you claim to despise. You are ignoring the whole text and history of what Paul is arguing.)
With Christ as my witness, I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it. My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them. They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,” though Abraham had other children, too. This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children. For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
JD, God shows you to be wrong. If you really are going to take the whole word of God seriously, you will acknowledge your error and misunderstanding.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If faith that saves or justifies before God was of ourselves it would give occasion to boast, which is contrary to being saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The verses and the subject matter we have been discussing has nothing to do with poetic language so your point is moot. What difference does it make if most of the scriptures are poetic as you say and you have plain statements in the scriptures concern explaining events that has happened over the past 28 years since Jesus Christ died and rose again, thus making everything different for everyone over the entire earth? The law of Moses has come to an end as the operative principle of God's divine dealing with Israel, and the gentiles, the heathen, the world, of sinners are now the focus of God's attention as being included on an equality with Israel in Christ, that is in the church, his body, that he is forming in this age.
This is called "changing the subject." I gave you a plain statement to deal with and this is your response. I am taking it as if you are saying one cannot believe plain statements are really addressed to and about Israel, the people of God for the last 2000 years before the writing of Romans, and we must take them as poetic language. This is fanciful interpretation and if you can make plain words have only a spiritual application and develop your own doctrines, so can I, and mine may be different from yours. However, if words mean what they say then we are all on the same playing field and are constrained by their actual meanings.
What you mean is that he will be speaking figuratively in the passages that do harm to your fanciful interpretation and theological system. Certainly you would not make that kind of interpretation to Rom 5:8 and Rom 1:16; Rom 6:23 and a host of other statements in Romans. You have a floating hermeneutic system. Spiritualize what you do not believe.
Paul wrote the following in AD 58 in the present tense. He wrote it 28 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his ascension to heaven. He wrote it 18 years after the events with Cornelius and his household in AD 40 when the gentiles were accepted in the beloved according to the mercy and grace of God, but not according to any previous promises he had made to any gentiles.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rom 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Paul used himself as proof that he disagrees with your version of the truth. In 58 AD he is still an Israelite. He is still of the seed of Abraham, which an Israelite must be, and he is of the tribe of Benjamin. This is proof that God has not cast away his people Israel, who he knew in OT times, and if your spiritual version of Israel is true then this argument is senseless.
Israelites = the people of God.
Gentiles = no people
Present time AD 58
Purpose of including gentiles = to provoke Israel to jealousy
A remnant of Israel = Abraham's physical seed who believed in Jesus Christ
What about Ephesians, written in 60 AD? - Ep 2:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, (WITH THE JEWS) and of the same body (AS THE JEWS), and partakers of his promise (OF THE SPIRIT/SALVATION)) in Christ (IN HIS BODY) by the gospel: (NOT BY PRE- CREATION ELECTION)
The Jews and gentiles in Christ are equal but are distinguishable by the principle of God by which they are put in him in the beginning. The purpose of God in this age is to form the body of Christ from both Jews and gentiles and when it is complete, to glorify it and take it to heaven where he is.
I am not sure if what you are quoting in blue text is a version of scripture, but if so, it is no better than a bad commentary.
JD, you wrote a lot of words to say nothing. Moreso, you ignored the text and instead rambled about nothing. It is clear you have not studied Romans, nor do you understand what Paul's argument is. I suggest you do so before responding in the future.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
What the carnal religionist has done in corrupting the word of truth, they have made faith, the act of believing a condition to get saved. They teach that God foresees this act of the sinner and then He's influenced or moved to reward the sinner with salvation or eternal life. Folks that's not salvation by grace through faith Eph 2:8, but its salvation by works, by the foreseen merit of man , and its an abomination to the Lord ! They make salvation of debt, rewarding their act of believing ! 6
Gotta love keyboard warriors
I am a military veteran and served the USA during and in wartime. What have you done?
37818
Well-Known Member
I dare say the problem is with one's understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 is confusing the gift of salvation with the faith that God requires without merit do to one's faith [Romans 4:4-5]. [Also because 2 Timothy 2:25, God gives the ability to have that faith].
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