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Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

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Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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seekingthetruth said:
I havent insulted your pastor or your kin????? ANSWER, My kin are Pastors, starting with my Great Great Granddaddy who was an itenerent preacher from Wales (and a Calvinistic Methodist). My brother & two cousin's are Pastors.

But mine have been insulted on here.

John
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Not by me brother.... Listen I am just going to cut this off with something I want us all to think about because as followers of Christ we are to glorify & love Him, however a combative disposition seeks glory for no one but self.

I'm not doing that & I hope you don't either.
 
Q

quantumfaith

Active Member
Earth said:
Frankly, Ive sat in on some sermons by Reformed Pastors that dont hit the mark either ...... but on the overall, RB's provide good sermons. I also have seen RB Churches that are dead & dont know it yet. It is heart braking to admit, but I will not sit in a pew of a dead church. Perhaps that means I am difficult but if the Lord saved me (at the advanced old age of 53), then I am going to honor Him by learning as much as I can & trying to perfect myself as much as possible up until I return to the Father.

Now I do not disagree with brothers who indicated they cannot sit in a church that they feel is misrepresenting God, nor should they sit & not be fed the meat they require, nor should one disrupt the church direction....So Icono, I do concur with you in your decision....however folks like the two Tom's & Glfrederick have chosen another path & I applaud that as well. In summation, we do not measure the brethren by the caliber of their soteriology, eschatology, Psychology, Zoology whatever, but by how much they love & honor God & love their brethren. Thats what we should all be focusing on.

Blessings
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You should try listening to some of Andy Stanley's messages. We just completed a series titled "Big Church". Very profound and motivating.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
They disagree but are united in Christ and in the gospel.

There are actually both Democrats and Republicans in my church (I don’t really understand why the other holds his views, but he probably feels the same about me). You could say that this is different because it is not about Christianity – but that is not so. Our political views are all about the application of Scripture in our everyday lives. Yet we still disagree. But we are united in Christ and love.

To many churches, this is not a dividing factor. There may be one primary view, but still, iron sharpens iron. I see it to be what Spurgeon called a “healthy irritation.”

But to some churches, it would probably be a dividing factor. It depends on how dogmatically one leans on his own understanding.
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Well every Calvinist I ever met at Baptist Board leans on his own understanding. They are always talking about their interpretation and what is logical. They also assume I do the same although I've told them I lean on God.

A dogma is merely being convinced, unmovable, of certain precepts. If you're willing to give up your precepts you could not have thought to much about them to begin with. Actually Calvinist, (at least the ones I've met here), are very dogmatic.

I'm just as dogmatic as any Calvinist and I do not see how there could ever be unity between freewill and non freewill. They are exact opposites. The only thing we have in Common is we both claim Christ is our Salvation. Catholics believe this as well, yet I'm totally against ecumenism. I would not compromise to be in unity with anyone and sooner or later just like here at Baptist board there would be arguments.

Calvinist may consider what they believe to be religion but I do not. I consider mine a relationship. A religion is about performing certain things religiously over and over. I believe Christ hated tradition as do I. Tradition becomes stagnate and repetitive and there fore meaningless.

Unity seems like a great idea but, Christ did not bring us unity. Instead He brought us division and true unity will not come until Christ comes again.
MB
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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seekingthetruth said:
EFW, I agree with this 100%

It's people like Icon though that cant stand someone having a different view of God's sovereignty than he does, that make the gap wider than it needs to be.

He is a perfect example of who I was talking about when I said that Calvinists seem to be more interested in converted those heathern Christians to Calvinism than they are about converting Lost souls to Christ.

I would guess that Icon has a hard time doing either one

John
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They would need converting now...heathen christians:thumbs:

Winman...i agreed with the one verse you did not take out of context:laugh:

It's people like Icon though that cant stand someone having a different view of God's sovereignty than he does, that make the gap wider than it needs to be.
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Yes seeking.....your comment that calvinism is from the Pit...is an edifying idea.....that really closes the gap......like i predicted snide remarks...no scripture...then run for the hills:laugh:
 
1

12strings

Active Member
(SEEKINGTHETRUTH) You cannot show me one scripture to back your theology. All you can do is piece together several scriptures, take them out of context and give life to a man-made lie.

Straight from the pits of Hell

John
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John, I think need to come to term with the fact that there are thousands of "regular" christians who happen to agree with the primary tenets of Calvinism when it comes to soteriology. We may not have an answer to every objection (though some may seem to think they do), but many of us, like me, simply have not heard a convincing argument against individual election, and so when we see verses that seem to say God chooses who will be saved (like those I posted on this thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75006&highlight=calvinism )
...We have to say, "I believe that, those verses seem to say God Chooses (individually) who will be saved."

If it is a lie from the pit of hell, it has been a lie believed by some undeniably godly preachers and theologians thought he ages of the church, Just as the opposite view has motivated some great evangelistic work though the ages of the church.

There ARE Biblical verses that seem to support Calvinism, just as there are biblical verses that seem to refute it. The view one takes on this issue (on either side) does not necessarily mean they should be relegated to the fringes and considered outside "normal" Christianity.



http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75006&highlight=calvinism
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
Well every Calvinist I ever met at Baptist Board leans on his own understanding. They are always talking about their interpretation and what is logical. They also assume I do the same although I've told them I lean on God.

A dogma is merely being convinced, unmovable, of certain precepts. If you're willing to give up your precepts you could not have thought to much about them to begin with. Actually Calvinist, (at least the ones I've met here), are very dogmatic.

I'm just as dogmatic as any Calvinist and I do not see how there could ever be unity between freewill and non freewill. They are exact opposites. The only thing we have in Common is we both claim Christ is our Salvation. Catholics believe this as well, yet I'm totally against ecumenism. I would not compromise to be in unity with anyone and sooner or later just like here at Baptist board there would be arguments.

Calvinist may consider what they believe to be religion but I do not. I consider mine a relationship. A religion is about performing certain things religiously over and over. I believe Christ hated tradition as do I. Tradition becomes stagnate and repetitive and there fore meaningless.

Unity seems like a great idea but, Christ did not bring us unity. Instead He brought us division and true unity will not come until Christ comes again.
MB
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MB, are you a pastor of a church?
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
12strings said:
John, I think need to come to term with the fact that there are thousands of "regular" christians who happen to agree with the primary tenets of Calvinism when it comes to soteriology. We may not have an answer to every objection (though some may seem to think they do), but many of us, like me, simply have not heard a convincing argument against individual election, and so when we see verses that seem to say God chooses who will be saved (like those I posted on this thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75006&highlight=calvinism )
...We have to say, "I believe that, those verses seem to say God Chooses (individually) who will be saved."

If it is a lie from the pit of hell, it has been a lie believed by some undeniably godly preachers and theologians thought he ages of the church, Just as the opposite view has motivated some great evangelistic work though the ages of the church.

There ARE Biblical verses that seem to support Calvinism, just as there are biblical verses that seem to refute it. The view one takes on this issue (on either side) does not necessarily mean they should be relegated to the fringes and considered outside "normal" Christianity.



http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75006&highlight=calvinism
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Poppy, define "normal" Christianity for me would ya....and take your time on it....you must be tired.:laugh:
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
MB said:
A dogma is merely being convinced, unmovable, of certain precepts. If you're willing to give up your precepts you could not have thought to much about them to begin with. Actually Calvinist, (at least the ones I've met here), are very dogmatic.
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No, actually I am strong in my theological beliefs and think very much about them. But when we go beyond the gospel into matters of reasoning – this is not something to become dogmatic about when encountering those who will not accept your theories.

Theological systems, such as Calvinism and Arminianism, are exactly what they say they are – theological systems. Theology incorporates Scripture, but also reasoning in their interpretation and use of scripture. Through our reason we “fill in the blanks.” While Calvinism may represent the gospel, it is not itself the gospel but a understanding of how God effects salvation. I hold to a Reformed faith which I may even term Calvinism, if it were not for Calvinists. I owe nothing to a theological system, whatever it is, but everything to Christ.


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=cart...tart=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=67&ty=81


In my church, people disagree on many topics (Calvinistic views included), but somehow we seem to learn from each other and remain united in Christ. Unfortunately there is very little in many of these posts that even have the slightest hint of Christ’s love.

So, yes, a dogma is merely being convinced, unmovable, of certain precepts. Being dogmatic is holding to these precepts as above reproach. These precepts had better, then, be the gospel as presented in Scripture (not necessarily your understanding, but the fundamental meaning).
 
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J

jonathan.borland

Active Member
Earth said:
Not by me brother.... Listen I am just going to cut this off with something I want us all to think about because as followers of Christ we are to glorify & love Him, however a combative disposition seeks glory for no one but self.

I'm not doing that & I hope you don't either.
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Would Paul be combative if people were trying to get people to join the "I am of Calvin" camp? The fact that we call those who are not of that camp things like non-Cal speaks for itself. Many Calvinists are on a mission to promote or focus on certain doctrines above or at the expense of all the others. Just see where certain people focus all their posts. They are, as Iconoclast said but in the opposite direction, neglecting the whole council of God. Non Cals explain each and every Scripture the Cals bring up, and I believe with the proper interpretation. No need to lambast them and impute impure motives to them. Shame on you! How divisive! In fact the Scripture does speak to the issues of those who are divisive: have nothing to do with them (1 Pet 3:10).
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
jonathan.borland said:
Would Paul be combative if people were trying to get people to join the "I am of Calvin" camp? The fact that we call those who are not of that camp things like non-Cal speaks for itself. Many Calvinists are on a mission to promote or focus on certain doctrines above or at the expense of all the others. Just see where certain people focus all their posts. They are, as Iconoclast said but in the opposite direction, neglecting the whole council of God. Non Cals explain each and every Scripture the Cals bring up, and I believe with the proper interpretation. No need to lambast them and impute impure motives to them. Shame on you! How divisive! In fact the Scripture does speak to the issues of those who are divisive: have nothing to do with them (1 Pet 3:10).
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Paul was very combative when some sought to mix works with grace ...as several do here on BB;
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
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I would suggest to you that Paul was very combative when semi -pelagians sought to pervert the gospel. let them be accursed...is not a blessing, or call to unity. There can be no unity with error.
Doctrine is given to bring unity....when doctrine is perverted...no unity can take place....ONLY ERROR.....or COMPROMISE.

Many Calvinists are on a mission to promote or focus on certain doctrines above or at the expense of all the others.
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This is not so. calvinists speak to the complete 66 books of scripture.
have you ever seen a confession of faith;
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html
what did they leave out?

Give an example to support your allegation.

Non Cals explain each and every Scripture the Cals bring up, and I believe with the proper interpretation. No need to lambast them and impute impure motives to them
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really.....look at what was brought up in this thread alone...no scripture...just evil speaking saying calvinist teaching is from hell{no impure motives there}:thumbs:
 
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