Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: I pray O merciful Father, make me your robot! For Jesus' sake and glory, form you this clay! I have no will in the matter; I leave it to you, my Maker and Saviour. How unfathomable is your love -- for me -- ME? I love you my Lord and my God.

HP: Strange prayer for a robot. Either one is or one is not. A robot asks for no change neither can any be affected.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Strange prayer for a robot. Either one is or one is not. A robot asks for no change neither can any be affected.

GE
DHK has said, "You don't think in those terms? I would have never known!! For you speak in those terms all the time. If man has no choice, no free will, then he is but a robot without the ability to resist God's grace. My son, a computer geek, can build one of those."

You see, the difference is this, the one is a robot any man might be able to build; the other, only God can make. "CREATE in me a new heart": This is God's product. Modern man may think he can do better with his 'technology' than could the old-timers with their clay or stone or imagination - idols, no difference! So, man, so protective of his 'free choice', is just making of himself the idol the people of old would have made of their clay or stone or philosophy or - best material available - human dignity.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Gospel - the "everlasting Gospel" - is an offence to (natural) man, or is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Charles Hodge wrote to the effect: Do you want to know which is the true election the Scriptures teach? Then search for the most offensive 'version' of it to man (or human wisdom). (I can't remember his exact words, but this was his exact idea, and it is what I believe - to the amusement of anti-Calvinists.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: So, man, so protective of his 'free choice', is just making of himself the idol the people of old would have made of their clay or stone or philosophy or - best material available - human dignity.

HP: It is not that we are protective of our ‘free choice,’ but rather we are protective of truth testified to us by Scripture, reason and experience, all clearly testifying to the fact that indeed man does possess a free will granted to him by his Creator.

No idols here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: It is not that we are protective of our ‘free choice,’ but rather we are protective of truth testified to us by Scripture, reason and experience, all clearly testifying to the fact that indeed man does possess a free will granted to him by his Creator.

No idols here.

GE
Man's heart is deceitfull above everything else. That is Scripture. Making man's heart just a little bit better, so as to be able to be free over against the temptation and corruptibility of sin, and you make of it your god - a FALSE god, and a god in the PLACE of the only true God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"man does possess a free will granted to him by his Creator"

GE
Here is the crux of the difference between our understandings: Not every man, but only those God willed to grace with a free will to choose for God, according to its (divine) nature, use that will to choose for God. All other men are born with a will free to do what it freely wills, which will of itself through man's sinfulness, freely - yea, ever according to its own promptings - willingly serves its creator and master: SIN!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: All other men are born with a will free to do what it freely wills, which will of itself through man's sinfulness, freely - yea, ever according to its own promptings - willingly serves its creator and master: SIN!

HP: A will that only does what it is programmed from birth to do, is not free. It is a mere sophism to speak of freedom of the will in terms such as you do, 'freedom to do as one wills.' Freedom lies in the actual choosing of intents antecedent to the doing. There is not a shred of freedom in the actual doing, for one can ONLY do as one wills. The relationship that is sustained between the will and the doing is one of necessity. If one does other than what he originally wills, it is evident that his will has changed. If one cannot do anything other than what one wills, such a one is under necessity.

Freedom can only be predicated where one can do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances. The ‘freedom’ you speak of, in the case of the lost, is nothing more than that of necessity, and is no freedom at all.

 

[gb93433]

God in His sovereignty created man with a free will. If He did not then there would not be any need for imperatives in scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: God in His sovereignty created man with a free will. If He did not then there would not be any need for imperatives in scripture.

HP: Very true. :thumbs:

That is NOT saying, as some have said, that men have to have freedom to do anything they so desire to be said to posses a free will. God can and does limit our freedom in multitude of ways and at any given time. What it does mean is that in all things that God holds man morally accountable for, God grants to man freedom of the will. Other areas we may enjoy freedom as well, but in areas where direct moral accountability rules, in rewarding and punishing for certain behavior, freedom of the will is necessitated by justice, and God is indeed Just.

 

[gb93433]

That is NOT saying, as some have said, that men have to have freedom to do anything they so desire to be said to posses a free will. God can and does limit our freedom in multitude of ways and at any given time. What it does mean is that in all things that God holds man morally accountable for, God grants to man freedom of the will. Other areas we may enjoy freedom as well, but in areas where direct moral accountability rules, in rewarding and punishing for certain behavior, freedom of the will is necessitated by justice, and God is indeed Just.

I see it as much the same way that a cow has a choice within a field to eat whatever grass it wants, but the framer chooses the pasture he wants.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: I see it as much the same way that a cow has a choice within a field to eat whatever grass it wants, but the framer chooses the pasture he wants.

HP: Can you imagine the absurdity an injustice of a farmer who punishes his cows for eating in the only pasture he locks them up in, or for not eating that which could not be found anywhere in that single pasture?

Such is the absurdity for believing that God punishes man for sin if in fact it is a created state we are born into and we had no choice whatsoever in being created as we are said to be, i.e. sinners from birth.

 

[gb93433]

HP: Can you imagine the absurdity an injustice of a farmer who punishes his cows for eating in the only pasture he locks them up in, or for not eating that which could not be found anywhere in that single pasture?

Such is the absurdity for believing that God punishes man for sin if in fact it is a created state we are born into and we had no choice whatsoever in being created as we are said to be, i.e. sinners from birth.

I am noi quite sure what you mean. The way I see it, is that man is responsible for his own choices. However we do live in the midst of sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: I am not quite sure what you mean. The way I see it, is that man is responsible for his own choices. However we do live in the midst of sin.

HP: I was addressing the notion of the state we are born into, not the state we reside in. I agree that we are indeed responsible for our choices, IF we have a choice. If we are born sinners, we had no choice but to sin. If cows are placed in a pasture with only one type of grass, the cow has no choice in the grass it eats and cannot be blamed or praised for eating it. You draw your own conclusion as to what God can and cannot blame or punish us for.

 

[DHK]

HP: I was addressing the notion of the state we are born into, not the state we reside in. I agree that we are indeed responsible for our choices, IF we have a choice. If we are born sinners, we had no choice but to sin. If cows are placed in a pasture with only one type of grass, the cow has no choice in the grass it eats and cannot be blamed or praised for eating it. You draw your own conclusion as to what God can and cannot blame or punish us for.

Your analogy is faulty. Not every pasture is perfect, and man no longer lives in Eden. Every pasture has many kinds of grasses, some more healthy than others. Some of those "grasses" are just plain weeds. The cow does have choices.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: A will that only does what it is programmed from birth to do, is not free. It is a mere sophism to speak of freedom of the will in terms such as you do,

It is simply "robot programming" to say "this one must choose A when I zap it to choose A -- and this other one must choose B until I zap it to choose A -- in which case it too must choose A".

We do that with computers "every day".

They have no free will. They do exactly as they are told. EVEN when they are in error - they are doing EXACTLY what they have been told to do.

It is like the saying we have today "There are no bad guns - there are only bad gun owners". The guns "have no free will" of their own.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Your analogy is faulty.

HP: There is at least one in every crowd that would blame the cows. :laugh:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For the sake of poor the sight of some, please increase your font size? Thanks!

Quote:
"If one does other than what he originally wills, it is evident that his will has changed. If one cannot do anything other than what one wills, such a one is under necessity."

GE
Now that's exactly what I say! Only thing is, changed by whom? By the supposedly 'free' agent, man, himself; or by God? You have explained the WHOLE matter, VERY, well! Only understand that God LOVED US AND SAVED US, WHILE WE WERE YET HATERS OF GOD.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God in His sovereignty created man with a free will. If He did not then there would not be any need for imperatives in scripture.

ge
BEFORE MAN FELL! In any case, sin does not excuse from responsibility, but brings under responsibility - or, as HP said - "necessity". Man in his natural state indeed has no real 'freedom' or 'choice'. He acts and wills and chooses under necessity. He has no way out! But God in his mercy who might create in him a new heart and a new will and a strange to his own nature inclination away from his former desires, "towards God" or "God-toward", just as God "to us-ward" in electing grace operated our salvation.

 

[2serve]

2serve:
"Therefore if God decided one man to go to Heaven then he must automaticly to have decided the other to go to Hell. It is the opposing side of the same coin. Is it not?"

GE

No sir!
If God decided all men should go to hell because all men sinned, He would be holily just, would he not? Since God is holily just He should 'automaticly' have decided everybody must go to hell, not so then? The 'opposing side of the same coin' is, that God in his Grace decided, some should not go to hell, but elected them unto salvation irretrievably! 'Automatically'? God forbid! Because it is the Mystery of Godliness that God does save "HIS OWN", through Christ. There is NOTHING 'automatic' about that! It is God willing, deciding, predestinating, choosing, electing, etcetera until finished in Grace, through Grace by Grace and for Grace only and exclusively..

I'm not sure in what universe that made sense, but it wasn't this one.

1.) No he would not. Not if he himself had predistinated them to sin. In fact Your supposition makes him holily unjust and (the Author of sin)
2.) I challenge you to put scripture with that supposition. (there being a noticable lack thereof.)
3.) There are only 2 verses in the entire Bible that say Predestinate Rom.8:29&30which IN CONTEXT are talking about sanctification, and 2 that say Predestinated Eph. 1:5&11 both of which IN CONTEXT speak to the method of Salvation and not the fashist forcing of Salvation.
4.) If somewhere in here I have misunderstood the scriptures then I need some guidance in the understanding of those afore mentioned verses(from my posting that you quoted) which you have so conveniently failed to address in your posting.

If we bring our Doctrine to the Bible we will almost if not always be wrong, But rather let us come to the Bible empty handed and just believe what God said.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
"If we are born sinners, we had no choice but to sin."

GE
You understand the Truth, yet you discard it - because you are self-conceited; that's all.

You have no choice but to sin while you are in the state you were born in, o man, understand! Only God is able to create in you a new will to newly choose for God and to choose God --- if He will! Because He is Sovereign, and we, rebels! -but for His Grace if He will!