Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I almost totally agree.
1.) T - says that Man is totally depraved (I agree); so much so that he can't even make the decision to recieve salvation(I couldn't disagree more) "to as many as recieved him to them gave he power to become the sons of God."(awful lot of action verbs on the part of man.)
2.) U - I totally agree w/BR
3.) L - I totally agree w/BR
4.) I - I totally agree w/BR
5.) P- Perseverance of the saints ( I disagree) the saints don't persevere but rather the Bible says that we are kept by his power, not our own.

The bottom line is that the whole TULIP theory hinges on one doctrine and that is the doctrine of predestination to salvation and the Word of God says that nowhere, not one single time.

GE

Man is totally depraved especially since he cannot even make the decision to, or, receive salvation; it is God who enables Him to do everything impossible for himself, by himself, and in himself.

"To as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." Not a single action of man he is able to do of himself, for it is expressly said, "To them / to as many GAVE, HE, power TO, become sons of God: the only verb of ability on the part of God; even 'become', is medial, because resultant of God's power and will and GIFT of love and grace -- particular Grace, that is!

Perseverance of the saints; the saints persevere man acts and freely and willingly act BECAUSE he is born of God and lives by Him and is kept by his power, not his own: that is the whole, secret of salvation - the Mystery of Godliness.

The bottom line is that the whole TULIP theory hinges on the ELECTING GRACE and LOVE of God that everywhere in Scripture is the grand theme.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"Even the Bible teaches that he knew right from wrong and could decide for himself (Romans 2:14,15)."

GE
Absolutely true! But how does it 'prove' the case of 'free will' -- it disproves it! Every man - naturally knows right from wrong when confronted with something against his own good. A barbaric knows to drink too much will destroy him. He may even by his own decision and in his own power overcome his bad drinking habits. I nor Calvinism deny that. But what barbaric will know or must know by own will and own ability, to kill is wrong and is sin? Like the Astecs. What barbaric will know and repent of canibalism, if everybody around him depends on eating up one another? Not Christians even sometimes seem to be able to! What about bigamy? What about calling the Name of the LORD in vain? What about believing a keeping of the Sabbath Day? Then even if the 'natural' man may KNOW about these things, will he mind it? He won't; he'll ridicule it, and his conscience - which he undoubtedly does have - will just ignore it and smother it dead with his own sinning.

No! when we see a man who does not so behave, but lives as if he knows God, it is impossible he had not been known by God first. And I know of not one argument of Paul's that he did not make from this point of view -- not a single!

 

[BobRyan]

DHK , you have apparently been programmed to deliver robotic replies in your deconstruction of a strawman that you call Calvinism .

Rippon you are not listening to your fellow Calvinists that have posted on this very board - very well.

We have some quotes from them showing that not ONLY do they believe the wicked act at God's Sovereign command so also does the devil himself.

If you are going to attack DHK on that point you have to at least explain WHY an Arminian MUST reject the calvinists you are not listening to as though "they are not calvinists".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[2serve]

GE
Man is totally depraved especially since he cannot even make the decision to, or, receive salvation; it is God who enables Him to do everything impossible for himself, by himself, and in himself. .

Scripture. Where is the scripture friend?

"To as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." Not a single action of man he is able to do of himself, for it is expressly said, "To them / to as many GAVE, HE, power TO, become sons of God: the only verb of ability on the part of God; even 'become', is medial, because resultant of God's power and will and GIFT of love and grace -- particular Grace, that is!.

Action verbs that require the action of man - Recieved and become - just basic English.

Perseverance of the saints; the saints persevere man acts and freely and willingly act BECAUSE he is born of God and lives by Him and is kept by his power, not his own: that is the whole, secret of salvation - the Mystery of Godliness..

Scripture. Where is the scripture friend?

The bottom line is that the whole TULIP theory hinges on the ELECTING GRACE and LOVE of God that everywhere in Scripture is the grand theme.

Scripture. Where is the scripture friend?

In love GE, my next response to you will only follow scripture, no scripture no response. It's a pearl thing.

 

[DHK]

DHK:
"Even the Bible teaches that he knew right from wrong and could decide for himself (Romans 2:14,15)."

GE
Absolutely true! But how does it 'prove' the case of 'free will' -- it disproves it! Every man - naturally knows right from wrong when confronted with something against his own good. A barbaric knows to drink too much will destroy him. He may even by his own decision and in his own power overcome his bad drinking habits. I nor Calvinism deny that. But what barbaric will know or must know by own will and own ability, to kill is wrong and is sin? Like the Astecs. What barbaric will know and repent of canibalism, if everybody around him depends on eating up one another? Not Christians even sometimes seem to be able to! What about bigamy? What about calling the Name of the LORD in vain? What about believing a keeping of the Sabbath Day? Then even if the 'natural' man may KNOW about these things, will he mind it? He won't; he'll ridicule it, and his conscience - which he undoubtedly does have - will just ignore it and smother it dead with his own sinning.

This is not true. Conviction does not always come from the Holy Spirit. Decisions to do right are not always prompted by God or the Holy Spirit. Let me give you a good example of a person who was in the bondage of a particular sin, an addiction, and of his own power and will, freed himself without the power of Christ. That man is my father who to this day remains in the RCC, an unsaved man.
For 30 years he smoked heavily. He was addicted. His fingers were all yellow. It wasn't just casual; he was a heavy smoker. One day his father (my grandfather) died. When he found out that his Dad died of lung cancer directly attributable to smoking he made a New Year's resolution to never touch another cigarette again, and he never did. There was no help from God. No help from the Holy Spirit. He was unsaved. It was pure will power. There wasn't even a nicotine patch in that day. It was all of his own will--his choice; pure will power. He broke the bondage of (that) sin over him. Man does have free will--the will even to break away from sin, sin that has power to hold a person in addiction.
There are Christians today that say they can't give up smoking. I often use the example of my father, who without the power of the Holy Spirit gave up smoking. He chose to do it. How much more, can we, with the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit give up ungodly practices.

 

[BobRyan]

Many non-Christians survived brutal conditions in prison camps. scaled high mountains and in the case of a few notorious groups often endured very difficult journeys just to go and pillage other towns and nations.

But Christ said in John 3 that the wind blows where it will and we do not see it - just like the Holy Spirit working on the heart of man BEFORE that person is saved -- and we don't see it. Every good impulse in man - every good desire - is from God. Paul said "IN me dwelleth no good thing".

I don't know of anyone that has a Holy-spirit-detector for absolutely knowing when the Holy Spirit is working with some unsaved person and when He is not.

The Arminian position does not depend on man being "good withouot God thank you very much". The Arminian position is not threatened at all by God who "Draws ALL" and who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" nor even by God from whom we derive all of our good motives and actions.

Cyrus let Israel leave Babylon according to God's plan but I don't believe he was saved.

Pilate stood before the howling mob and the Jewish leaders and said "I find NO fault in this man"! He tried to set Jesus free -- but he too was unsaved.

The Arminian position is only at risk if it turns out that God has enabled SOME to accept the gospel but not others. If ALL are enabled to follow the moving of the Holy Spirit -- then all have a choice -and that choice can be "no".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The Arminian position is only at risk if it turns out that God has enabled SOME to accept the gospel but not others. If ALL are enabled to follow the moving of the Holy Spirit -- then all have a choice -and that choice can be "no".

HP: The Arminian position is at risk from the get-go. It starts from the false Augustinian notion of original sin just as the Calvinist does. If the Arminian is consistent he would have to admit that the damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ, a point not supported by Scripture.

You falsely equate the moving of the Holy Spirit with the gospel. Such might or might not be the case, depending on whether or not one has had the opportunity to hear the gospel. The problem of rejecting Christ is NOT the cause of anyone’s malady. It certainly has the capability of sealing ones fate, but again that is NOT the cause of the malady that is the root of their separation from God. “Your sins have separated you from your God” is the clear admonition of Scripture. That is not speaking of the Augustinian-engineered presupposition of original sin either.

 

[gb93433]

The Arminian position is at risk from the get-go. It starts from the false Augustinian notion of original sin just as the Calvinist does. If the Arminian is consistent he would have to admit that the damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ, a point not supported by Scripture.

If the rejection of Jesus Christ is not the damnable sin then what is?

Mt. 12:31, "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb93433: If the rejection of Jesus Christ is not the damnable sin then what is?

HP: Any sin that one has not repented of has the capability of being the very cause of ones damnation. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

 

[DHK]

HP: Any sin that one has not repented of has the capability of being the very cause of ones damnation. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

This is not true, and is a false theology.
The rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, and his work on the cross, is the only thing that will damn a person to hell.

It is not particular sins that condemn a man. We are not under the law, but under grace. Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and the law was fulfilled. The penalty for our sins has been atoned for. The legal demands of God have been met in the blood of Christ.
Thus the one who rejects that gift, that sacrifice, will condemn himself. It is his choice whether or not to receive the free gift of salvation or reject it.

To tell one (an unbeliever) to repent of all their sins is totally unbiblical. The Bible teaches no such concept.
Where does the Bible teach any such thing?
No one can remember all their sins much less repent of them all. That is an impossible feat for any man to do.

 

[EdSutton]

Well, since some o' y'all brung up the subjects of remberin' sins, and repentin', I just gotta' coupla' observations.

If "The Infinite, Personal, God Who is There", as per Francis Schaeffer's 'shorthand' description of the Lord, in His mercy, doesn't remember sins, how in the world is a finite man possibly supposed to?

34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jer. 31:34 - NKJV)
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[a] I will remember no more.”[b]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8:12-13 - NKJV)16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[a] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[b] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. (Heb. 10:16-18 - NKJV)

BTW, the phrase "repent of or from (one's) sins" is not to be found in Scripture.



But if that is what it means, exactly what sins are you suggesting God needed to repent from, since He is said to 'repent' or 'not repent' thirty times in Scripture?


Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Rippon you are not listening to your fellow Calvinists that have posted on this very board - very well.

We have some quotes from them showing that not ONLY do they believe the wicked act at God's Sovereign command so also does the devil himself.

If you are going to attack DHK on that point you have to at least explain WHY an Arminian MUST reject the calvinists you are not listening to as though "they are not calvinists".

in Christ,

Bob

GE
And here is why i, a Calvinist, MUST reject Arminianism and especially your kind of Arminianism, BobRyan, One: because it is of utter lying spirit ("the wicked act at God's Sovereign command so also does the devil himself"); Two: because it is utterly deaf for, and cannot, hear the Word of God.

You accuse all Calvinists, me included, of saying God is the cause of the devil's and of his children's sin : There awaits YOU, a judgement, BobRyan!

But this serves a good purpose: It proves your complete lack of either knowledge or understanding.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

2serve:
"Scripture. Where is the scripture friend?"

GE
I warned you before, save yourself the embarrasment. So I'll give ONE Scripture - from ALL of Scripture! Read John's Letters, and several texts from them, like this one: "Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, does not HAVE, God; he that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he does have the Father and the Son."

Here by the way, is the cause of the devil's sinning: It is not God, but the devil by own choice! Just like man when he fell, by decision of his own freed/severed-from-God-choice.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: Any sin that one has not repented of has the capability of being the very cause of ones damnation. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

DHK: This is not true, and is a false theology.
The rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, and his work on the cross, is the only thing that will damn a person to hell.

HP: Then you must in fact believe as BR claims, in that all must, of necessity, hear or have heard the gospel message? I cannot recall where you have ever answered this question directly. If you have, can you either restate your position or point us to the reference?

DHK: It is not particular sins that condemn a man.

HP: That is quite statement DHK especially for a pastor.

DHK: We are not under the law, but under grace.

HP: What is the law? Are you speaking of the moral commandments or of the ceremonial law given to the Jews? Who is not under the law? 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

DHK: Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and the law was fulfilled. The penalty for our sins has been atoned for. The legal demands of God have been met in the blood of Christ.
Thus the one who rejects that gift, that sacrifice, will condemn himself. It is his choice whether or not to receive the free gift of salvation or reject it.

HP: HP: You beg the question again. Have all heard the gospel? Was the gospel even given to the Gentiles of the OT as a general rule? Has everyone, including all in our dispensation, heard the good news?

DHK: To tell one (an unbeliever) to repent of all their sins is totally unbiblical. The Bible teaches no such concept.

HP: Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

DHK: Where does the Bible teach any such thing?

HP: From cover to cover. I simply did not list the OT verses as the most likely response would be , “That was under the law.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear HP,
Here in South Africa we a sect. As far as I know it is the only sect that truly originated in South Africa. I knew one of their 'big' men well. He told me 'confession of sin' -- no, of 'sins', every sin particularly and specifically - MUST be openly made in front of the whole assembly. And man, that man used the Bible 'from cover to cover' to prove his point to me!

Just thought I'd tell you.

 

[BobRyan]

GE
And here is why i, a Calvinist, MUST reject Arminianism and especially your kind of Arminianism, BobRyan, One: because it is of utter lying spirit ("the wicked act at God's Sovereign command so also does the devil himself");

You seem to have an unparalleled "talent" for ignoring details and handing out empty insults GE.

Is this your "main" contribution here?

Are you going to actually "follow the point and THEN respond" at some point????

You accuse all Calvinists, me included, of saying God is the cause of the devil's and of his children's sin : There awaits YOU, a judgement, BobRyan!

Take a small trip into the land of honesty, integrity and "substance" GE -- find a QUOTE from me that says what you accuse me of THEN go ahead and show how you differ from it.

But "just making stuff up" as you do - is not "a good substitute" for facts and truth.

Not sure the practice of integrity and "attention to facts" I mention in this post has had much meaning in your posts so far -- just offering some helpful constructive criticism here. At some point you will have to show interest in "making a point".

When you do - let me know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: No one can remember all their sins much less repent of them all. That is an impossible feat for any man to do.

HP: Repentance is both specific and general. It involves a specific confessing of all known sins and a heart attitude of change directed generally towards all acts of known disobedience. “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Sin involves knowledge of the transgression.

Is it possible to forget some sin and thereby possibly not repent? I believe God knows the heart. It is amazing you would try and negate the duty of repentance based upon something you might not remember. What about all the things that you DO remember? Is not God faithful to reveal to the true repentant heart His will, and if God desires to remind us of something in our past that we have, due to our finite state forgotten, bring it once again to our hearts and minds? I have certainly found that so in my life.

As for repenting for all past sins being impossible to you, we would do well to remember the following passages. “Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”

The question to ask ourselves is, have we truly repented of all KNOWN transgressions, you know, the ones we CAN remember, and do we have a change of heart towards transgressing God’s laws? Would not a hearty of obedience cry out even as Nicodemus did, telling God that IF there has been any thing in the past that we might be overlooking or forgetting about that God would not only bring it to our memory, but that when he does we will be faithful in confessing it and repenting from it? Would not our heart cry out as Nicodemus in offering to make right past wrongs God brings to our hearts and minds that we might not now remember, and have a heart of willingness to make restitution so far as possible in this world for it? Can anything less be loving God with our whole heart and our neighbor as ourselves, or is that impossible as well?

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: Any sin that one has not repented of has the capability of being the very cause of ones damnation. “Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

HP: Then you must in fact believe as BR claims, in that all must, of necessity, hear or have heard the gospel message? I cannot recall where you have ever answered this question directly. If you have, can you either restate your position or point us to the reference?

I believe the Scripture.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

HP: That is quite statement DHK especially for a pastor.

Again I believe what the Bible believes; not what man teaches.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
--I trust the Lord and His Word; Who or what do you trust? Calvin perhaps?

HP: What is the law? Are you speaking of the moral commandments or of the ceremonial law given to the Jews? Who is not under the law? 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is God's law. I will demonstrate it for you.
My statement was: "We are not under the law but under grace." Paul explained this in Gal.3

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--If you put yourself under the law, then Paul says you must (from birth to death) continue in all things that are written in the law, and do them without breaking any one of them. If you sin once, break one law just once in your entire lifetime you are cursed under the law. You are condemned for all eternity.
--We do not live under the law we live under grace. Why?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.
If you haven't trusted him, you haven't been redeemed and the curse still remains upon you.

HP: HP: You beg the question again. Have all heard the gospel? Was the gospel even given to the Gentiles of the OT as a general rule? Has everyone, including all in our dispensation, heard the good news?

Beg the question? No I don't. But I tire of the same question being asked ad nauseum. I tell you the answer reapetedly and do you accept it. No. If I tell you again will you accept it? I doubt it.
Here it is. I accept the Scriptures as infallible and true. And here is what it says.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--Either you believe it or you don't.

HP: Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Not one of these Scriptures teach the false doctrine that you must repent of all your sins in order to be saved; not even one verse.

HP: From cover to cover. I simply did not list the OT verses as the most likely response would be , “That was under the law.”

Where does the Bible teach any such thing?
You are mistaken.
It doesn't.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a good thread discussing evangelism and the Gospel in the OT

Prov 11:30
30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
And he who is wise wins souls.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1205370&postcount=1

The point is - that if the OT saints were all saved by the ONE Gospel -- and yet their "detailed understanding" of the life death and resurrection of Christ was "less than ours is today" -- it can not be argued that "better story telling" makes us "more saved".

Rather salvation becomes a "relationship" issue as Christ stated PRE-Cross in John 15 regarding "branches IN ME" -- truths applicable to pre-cross saints.

Salvation is the same "relationship issue" that we see in Romans 8:16 "the SPIRIT bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God".

Salvation is the same "relationship issue" that Christ said it was in John 3 when speaking precross to Nicodemus.

Salvation is the same "relationshp issue" that Paul defines it to be in Romans 2 EVEN in the "extreme case" of those "who have no access at all to scripture". (Rom 2:13-16).

The Jews made the very argument that many today are making - they said that because THEY had the Bible - THEY had the Word of God -- then in truth only THEY could be saved -- no matter how they actually behaved. This was what Paul fought against in Romans 2.

This fits perfectly with Paul's argument in the same book "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ" Romans 10 -- because right there Paul defines what that "word of Christ is" - and he shows that it even includes the Ps 19 "word" that goes out to all the earth - the Word of our Creator - Jesus Christ as manifest in the "things that have been made". That is a "word" whose scope reaches EVEN to that Romans 2:13-16 gentile with no Bible that is "approved" while Bible-reading Bible-aware Jews were going to be condemned.

That is the death of the argument "Salvation by better more accurate story telling" rather it is the one who abides IN Christ - who responds to that John 3 moving of the Holy Spirit EVEN if they are Adam or Able or Seth or Enoch or Isaac (saints with not one word of written text) - even if they have limited access to "exhaustive details" when it comes to the gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Beg the question? No I don't. But I tire of the same question being asked ad nauseum. I tell you the answer reapetedly and do you accept it. No. If I tell you again will you accept it? I doubt it.
Here it is. I accept the Scriptures as infallible and true. And here is what it says.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--Either you believe it or you don't.

HP: I know what I believe and what Scripture says. I tire as well having to keep asking the same questions over in order to get a definitive answer. Wonder no further why the listener cannot get a straight answer and has to keep repeating the question. I asked you if you believe that all have or will hear the gospel message. You seemingly say “no”….just to repeat a verse that states (at least at face value in some sense) that God hath brought salvation to “all men.” Possibly you do not believe that He brought salvation to all women or children then? What is the point that you are trying to make by quoting this Scripture?? If you would simply say, ‘no, God has not revealed salvation to all men in the past nor do all men even in the future have an undeniable opportunity to receive of the gospel message,’ I could understand you clearly. I would then ask you what are you trying to prove by the Scripture you posted? What does the Scripture infer by stating that the gospel message has been ‘brought to all men?’

Now let there be no question in the readers mind as to the import of the point I am making. Here was one of the statements DHK made that precipitated my questioning, and I quote.

“DHK: This is not true, and is a false theology. The rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior, and his work on the cross, is the only thing that will damn a person to hell.”

My point is that IF DHK really believes that all have not nor possibly will all hear the gospel, is he trying to say that a Just God is going to damn man for failure to believe that which they know nothing of?? Is he trying to say that none of those that have not heard will not see damnation? If any will be damned that have not heard the gospel, for what will they be damned?? DHK has clearly stated that "ONLY THING" that will damn a person to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Again, can one reject that which they know nothing of?

Can the listener get a grasp of the legitimate questions that arise from his statements? I certainly can.