Is Christianity Accessible to All People?

[Reformed]

Like I said, no argument from me. It only took me comparing the CCC with a bible to see the blatant contradictions. The point where I could no longer call the Pope the "Vicar or Christ", I could no longer call myself Catholic.

By the way, if you are not a Baptist, what are you?

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[Yeshua1]

Ok...we obviously went down a rabbit trail. To get back on topic. I believe there was a path to salvation prior to Jesus. I also believe that path was still through Jesus. I do not believe that that path is now closed. Hebrews 11 provides numerous examples.

There has been ONLY one road to heaven, either OT/NT, and its thru the Cross of Christ, and saved by grace alone/faith alone!

 

[thatbrian]

Yes:

....to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

You do not promote The Gospel (good news) as the means for sinners to be made righteous. You promote The Law as a means for righteousness.

The "holding fast" is actually resisting what you are trying to do, place folks back under the Law. Holding fast is fighting to remain in faith and not attempting to hedge your bets with works.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Ok...we obviously went down a rabbit trail. To get back on topic. I believe there was a path to salvation prior to Jesus. I also believe that path was still through Jesus. I do not believe that that path is now closed. Hebrews 11 provides numerous examples.

The way I understand it, believers in the OT were looking forward to the coming savior. They may have known only a few details, to varying degrees, but it has always been by faith; never of works.

 

[delizzle]

The way I understand it, believers in the OT were looking forward to the coming savior. They may have known only a few details, to varying degrees, but it has always been by faith; never of works.

I agree. Now taking it further, what about before the Law. Before Moses. How were people saved? They were saved because they had faith in the promise of Abraham. My question is if that door is now shut?

 

[delizzle]

By the way, if you are not a Baptist, what are you?

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I am non-denominational. I don't hold to a particular brand of Christianity. I do think that for the most part, Baptist Theology is solid. I am attending a Baptist Seminary if that says anything. I think that most denominations have something beautiful to contribute to the Church.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I agree. Now taking it further, what about before the Law. Before Moses. How were people saved?

The Bible mentions, in Genesis chapter 4. "men began to call upon the name of the Lord". That's all I know to tell you at this point. But we do know that all of the men mentioned in Genesis 5 were "the sons of God" mentioned in chapter 6, and were direct ancestors in the lineage of Christ. They were believers. And the only one of them which was alive after the flood was Noah. Then "Shem" was the next. I assume that's how, at this point.

They were saved because they had faith in the promise of Abraham.

Remember when Abraham was told to slay Isaac? That was a "picture" of God sacrificing his Only begotten Son. I say, it's always been Christ.

My question is if that door is now shut?

The "door" is Jesus Christ "the Word", the "imanuel".

THIS is the only way.
Acts 4
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[delizzle]

The Bible mentions, in Genesis chapter 4. "men began to call upon the name of the Lord". That's all I know to tell you at this point. But we do know that all of the men mentioned in Genesis 5 were "the sons of God" mentioned in chapter 6, and were direct ancestors in the lineage of Christ. They were believers. And the only one of them which was alive after the flood was Noah. Then "Shem" was the next. I assume that's how, at this point.



Remember when Abraham was told to slay Isaac? That was a "picture" of God sacrificing his Only begotten Son. I say, it's always been Christ.


The "door" is Jesus Christ "the Word", the "imanuel".

THIS is the only way.
Acts 4
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I am not arguing with that. Is Christianity the only way to be saved through Christ? Is it possible for someone to come to Christ without ever hearing about Christianity?

 

[Reformed]

My question is if that door is now shut?

What does scripture say?

Hebrews 1:1-2 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Acts 4:12 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

I am not sure what you mean about the door being shut, but a right relationship with God the Father has always been through the Son. The Old Testament presented Christ and the New Covenant in types and shadows. The first promise of a coming Redeemer is seen in Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15 15 "and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.”

God made no other provision to have a right relationship with Himself other than through the Son.

Philippians 2:9-11 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Perhaps this bothers you (as it does others) because you feel God owes everyone a fair chance to believe in Him? I think this is Pastor Bob's position; that the tribal person on some remote island will only be judged based on the light that he has and not whether he heard the gospel and had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. The fact is that God is not fair in the way we define fairness. He is not obligated to save any. The fact that He saves some is all of grace. Perhaps that is why many of the greatest missionaries (like Hudson Taylor) the post-Reformation world has ever seen have been Monergists. They understood that the Gospel is the means of salvation to all who believe, so they set out to bring its saving message to as many unreached people groups as possible.

 

[delizzle]

What does scripture say?

Hebrews 1:1-2 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Acts 4:12 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

I am not sure what you mean about the door being shut, but a right relationship with God the Father has always been through the Son. The Old Testament presented Christ and the New Covenant in types and shadows. The first promise of a coming Redeemer is seen in Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15 15 "and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.”

God made no other provision to have a right relationship with Himself other than through the Son.

Philippians 2:9-11 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Perhaps this bothers you (as it does others) because you feel God owes everyone a fair chance to believe in Him? I think this is Pastor Bob's position; that the tribal person on some remote island will only be judged based on the light that he has and not whether he heard the gospel and had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. The fact is that God is not fair in the way we define fairness. He is not obligated to save any. The fact that He saves some is all of grace. Perhaps that is why many of the greatest missionaries (like Hudson Taylor) the post-Reformation world has ever seen have been Monergists. They understood that the Gospel is the means of salvation to all who believe, so they set out to bring its saving message to as many unreached people groups as possible.

Was anyone ever saved prior to Jesus Christ? Yes or no.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I am not arguing with that. Is Christianity the only way to be saved through Christ? Is it possible for someone to come to Christ without ever hearing about Christianity?

The Bible says that God has revealed "the things of God" and even "the Godhead" through nature. Beyond that, I don't have a specific answer. Let me do some studying on that one.

 

[Reformed]

Was anyone ever saved prior to Jesus Christ? Yes or no.

No. Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God. Salvation has always been through faith in Him, even if the knowledge of the Son was obscured by the types and shadows of the Old Testament.

 

[Reformed]

But let me add that the knowledge of the Son of God was not so obscured as to be unknowable.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

 

[kyredneck]

You do not promote The Gospel (good news) as the means for sinners to be made righteous. You promote The Law as a means for righteousness.

Huh? What are you talking about?

The "holding fast" is actually resisting what you are trying to do, place folks back under the Law. Holding fast is fighting to remain in faith and not attempting to hedge your bets with works.

You really do create strawmen!

 

[delizzle]

No. Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God. Salvation has always been through faith in Him, even if the knowledge of the Son was obscured by the types and shadows of the Old Testament.

are you then claiming that absolutely everyone who ever existed prior to Jesus is in hell?

 

[Reformed]

If what you are saying is true, there is a lot of scripture you have to ignore. Enoch and Elijah are two such examples.

The onus is on you to prove that case. The sins of Enoch and Elijah both had to be atoned for. Hebrews makes it clear that the blood of bulls and goats does not permanently forgive sins. Both Enoch and Elijah had their sins permanently atoned for by Christ, even if their miraculous heaven-goings were extraordinary events.

 

[delizzle]

The onus is on you to prove that case. The sins of Enoch and Elijah both had to be atoned for. Hebrews makes it clear that the blood of bulls and goats does not permanently forgive sins. Both Enoch and Elijah had their sins permanently atoned for by Christ, even if their miraculous heaven-goings were extraordinary events.

Is Enoch and Elijah in heaven? Yes or no.

 

[Reformed]

Is Enoch and Elijah in heaven? Yes or no.

I am not sure why you are drilling me; unless you think if I answer "yes" it somehow makes your point? Well, the answer is yes. Now, I will ask you a yes or no question. Are Enoch and Elijah in heaven because of the finished work of Christ?

 

[delizzle]

I am not sure why you are drilling me; unless you think if I answer "yes" it somehow makes your point? Well, the answer is yes. Now, I will ask you a yes or no question. Are Enoch and Elijah in heaven because of the finished work of Christ?

So do you admit that your statement on #112 is false? Oh, to answer your question, yes.

 

[Reformed]

So do you admit that your statement on #112 is false? Oh, to answer your question, yes.

You do not understand what I meant in post #112. Let me explain it to you. No one has ever been saved apart from Jesus Christ. This includes Old Testament saints. Enoch and Elijah are in heaven because they were saved by faith in Christ. There has never been any other way to be saved. Now, did they possess the same knowledge of Jesus as we do today? Of course not. The doctrine of Christ has been progressively revealed from Genesis 3:15 all the way up to the inauguration of the New Covenant. A case can be made that Christians in the 21st century have more knowledge of Christ than 1st century Christians, simply because we have the entire canon of scripture.

So, no. I do not admit my statement in post #112 is false. I just took the time to explain it to you. It is up to you to accept or reject my explanation. And since your answer to my question in post #118 is yes, what is this all about? If you confess that Enoch and Elijah were saved by the finished work of Christ (the very thing I have just elucidated in this post), what are we talking about?