Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

[Silverhair]

So, I hit the nail on the head, Silverhair is just another dime a dozen 'Calvinist slayer', one of many such that has appeared on this board. Nothing unique about you or your vain humanistic reasonings, and, there's absolutely no way you're going to eradicate the message of God's Sovereign Grace, it's here to stay, it is the Good News God has for us. Dream on, shallow man.

Have you taken the time to check the history of your philosophy? I am not here to eradicate the Sovereignty of God or the message of His grace, but as for the misuse of scripture by calvinists then as a Christian I will stand against it. But carry on with your ad hominem attacks of me, as you fail in your attacks on the scripture I post

 

[canadyjd]

The fact that you can not or actually will not see the difference between physical death as a consequence of Adams sin and spiritual death as a punishment for each persons sin speaks more of your loyalty to calvinism rather than to the biblical text.

We are sinners because we sin, each person is judged for their own sin not someone else's. I am no more judged for your sins than I am for Adam's.
Actually it was this verse that I quoted:
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

The punishment for Adam's sin, if he had not repented, would not be experienced for many years.
Gen 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
The punishment for sin:
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Everyone dies that is the consequence of Adams's sin, first death. Those that do not trust in Christ will suffer the punishment for their sin, second death.

Do you still maintain that if someone led a sinless life they would still die? If so, why?

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Do you still maintain that if someone led a sinless life they would still die? If so, why?

peace to you

How many times do I have to go over this before it sinks in.

Reread what I have already posted and this time actually think it through.

You keep disagreeing but you have not given any valid reasons for your disagreement.

 

[canadyjd]

How many times do I have to go over this before it sinks in.

Reread what I have already posted and this time actually think it through.

You keep disagreeing but you have not given any valid reasons for your disagreement.

I repeated what you posted. Obviously you don’t want to answer directly and I don’t blame you as it is clearly contrary to scripture.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I repeated what you posted. Obviously you don’t want to answer directly and I don’t blame you as it is clearly contrary to scripture.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

I have answered your questions more than once and you just do not want to accept what the bible tells you. Why you make the false statement that I have not answered you is telling about your lack of integrity in this matter.

But here is the answer again:

The fact that you can not or actually will not see the difference between physical death as a consequence of Adams sin and spiritual death as a punishment for each persons sin speaks more of your loyalty to calvinism rather than to the biblical text.

We are sinners because we sin, each person is judged for their own sin not someone else's. I am no more judged for your sins than I am for Adam's.
Actually it was this verse that I quoted:
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

The punishment for Adam's sin, if he had not repented, would not be experienced for many years.
Gen 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

The punishment for sin:
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Everyone dies that is the consequence of Adams's sin, first death. Those that do not trust in Christ will suffer the punishment for their sin, second death.

All I have seen from you is denial but no support for your denial.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The fact that God stepped in and took their lives does not alter the reality that the vast majority of people in history have not had God step in that way. But all people die whether God steps in or not. Physical death is the consequence of Adam's sin or perhaps you know someone besides Enoch that is not under the sentence of death?

Your notion that God "stepped in" and took certain people's lives but does not do so in any manner for everyone else is unbiblical and suggests that you might believe that most people just die of some "natural" cause or process that does not involve God's acting in any way.

Furthermore, you do not have any Bible to show that "the vast majority of people in history" died physically in some such impersonal manner that was apart from the working of God. In fact, in the Flood, every person in the whole world died (except for the 8 people that God graciously spared) as the direct result of God's judging them all as sinners--none of them died merely as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Concerning Enoch, I am not clear what point you are trying to make about him. What is clear is that there is zero biblical basis to hold that Enoch lived a perfectly sinless life and therefore did not experience physical death for that reason.

 

[Silverhair]

Your notion that God "stepped in" and took certain people's lives but does not do so in any manner for everyone else is unbiblical and suggests that you might believe that most people just die of some "natural" cause or process that does not involve God's acting in any way.

Furthermore, you do not have any Bible to show that "the vast majority of people in history" died physically in some such impersonal manner that was apart from the working of God. In fact, in the Flood, every person in the whole world died (except for the 8 people that God graciously spared) as the direct result of God's judging them all as sinners--none of them died merely as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Concerning Enoch, I am not clear what point you are trying to make about him. What is clear is that there is zero biblical basis to hold that Enoch lived a perfectly sinless life and therefore did not experience physical death for that reason.

Your lack of logic is astounding. According to you everyone that dies only does so because God causes them to die, strange view but strange views seem to be common on this board from certain theological groups. You did obviously read where I said God can step in and take someones life, right, so your use of the flood just proves what I said. Thanks.

Do you have any biblical text that proves God takes everyone's life? I am always amazed at how hard people will struggle against the biblical text so they can hold to their philosophy.

The bible is clear about the consequence of Adam's sin and the punishment for our sins. You just refuse to accept it.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You did obviously read where I said God can step in and take someones life, right, so your use of the flood just proves what I said. Thanks.

No, my comments about the Flood do not prove what you said. You made a baseless claim that the vast majority of people die physically without God's involvement. You have no way of knowing how many millions, maybe billions of people died in the Flood as the direct judgment of God on them. Therefore, your claim about what is true about the vast majority of all people who have ever died physically is mere assertion because you do not have any basis to know how the number of people that died in the Flood compares to all other people who have died physically.

In any case, you are the one who has a strange, unbiblical understanding of physical death. Apparently, you believe that humans die physically through some unstated "natural" processes such that the spirit somehow becomes impersonally detached from the body. The Bible teaches otherwise:

God takes away their breath and death results:

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

God is the One who kills:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Sam. 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

2 Ki. 5:7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.

Physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body, is always the work of God; it is not some random, mindless, automated, impersonal, or even "deistic" process that works somehow on its own without any involvement of God.

 

[Silverhair]

No, my comments about the Flood do not prove what you said. You made a baseless claim that the vast majority of people die physically without God's involvement. You have no way of knowing how many millions, maybe billions of people died in the Flood as the direct judgment of God on them. Therefore, your claim about what is true about the vast majority of all people who have ever died physically is mere assertion because you do not have any basis to know how the number of people that died in the Flood compares to all other people who have died physically.

In any case, you are the one who has a strange, unbiblical understanding of physical death. Apparently, you believe that humans die physically through some unstated "natural" processes such that the spirit somehow becomes impersonally detached from the body. The Bible teaches otherwise:

God takes away their breath and death results:

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

God is the One who kills:

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Sam. 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

2 Ki. 5:7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.

Physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body, is always the work of God; it is not some random, mindless, automated, impersonal, or even "deistic" process that works somehow on its own without any involvement of God.

SMA if you want to believe that God just comes along and kills people you go ahead. The bible does not agree with you but that does not seem to matter.

I have shown you what God told Adam but for some strange reason that is not good enough for you. Why I am not sure but that is the way you run.

I can only show you what the bible says I can not make you believe it. Your verses do not prove your case. I have already said that God can and actually will at times step in and take a persons life. You seem to think He has to take everyone's life but the bible does not support you on that.

Why you refuse to trust what God said directly to Adam I do not know but you continue fight against His word. So what it comes down to is you either believe God or you do not, your choice.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Your verses do not prove your case. I have already said that God can and actually will at times step in and take a persons life. You seem to think He has to take everyone's life but the bible does not support you on that.

Wrong. The verses that I cited do not say that God sometimes takes away the breath of some people so that they die. They do not say that God sometimes kills some people. They show that He is the One and only One who does those things, and they establish that He does so for all people.

You are the one who has to show from Scripture that someone died without any involvement of God in the separation of their spirit from their body. You are not going to find any such Scripture because there isn't any.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong. The verses that I cited do not say that God sometimes takes away the breath of some people so that they die. They do not say that God sometimes kills some people. They show that He is the One and only One who does those things, and they establish that He does so for all people.

You are the one who has to show from Scripture that someone died without any involvement of God in the separation of their spirit from their body. You are not going to find any such Scripture because there isn't any.

Those verses show that God can kill and He can make alive they do not support your contention that He has to kill everyone and make everyone alive. That is just you reading into scripture what you want to find. But I notice that you still refuse to accept what God actually said to Adam. Why is that SMA?

I am surprised that you think the word of God is funny. Or perhaps that is just one of those laughs people have when their worried or scared.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Those verses show that God can kill and He can make alive they do not support your contention that He has to kill everyone and make everyone alive. That is just you reading into scripture what you want to find. But I notice that you still refuse to accept what God actually said to Adam. Why is that SMA?

No, they do not have the word "can" in them. You are reading that idea into the text in order to maintain your false belief. Look at what they actually say. Not a single one of these verses have anything that says that God merely says that He can do these things.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Sam. 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

2 Ki. 5:7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.

I am not refusing at all what God said to Adam. You are reading into what God said to Adam to assert what is not there.

 

[Silverhair]

No, they do not have the word "can" in them. You are reading that idea into the text in order to maintain your false belief. Look at what they actually say. Not a single one of these verses have anything that says that God merely says that He can do these things.

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Sam. 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

2 Ki. 5:7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.

I am not refusing at all what God said to Adam. You are reading into what God said to Adam to assert what is not there.

They do not have the word has to either. You are jumping to that idea as you need to support your calvinst philosophy.

You require God to determine all things as that is the calvinist mantra. Read the context of Psa 104:29 it is speaking of the cycle of life. Deut 32:39 just shows us that God is sovereign not tat He has to kill everything as you seem to think. 2Ki 5:7 is a real stretch on your part. 1Sa 2:6 say God kills and makes alive, it does not say He kills everything and makes everything alive. You are seeking any verse that has kill in it in support of your errant understanding of scripture.

Why do you not believe what God actually said to Adam?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Those verses show that God can kill and He can make alive they do not support your contention that He has to kill everyone and make everyone alive. That is just you reading into scripture what you want to find. But I notice that you still refuse to accept what God actually said to Adam. Why is that SMA?

I am surprised that you think the word of God is funny. Or perhaps that is just one of those laughs people have when their worried or scared.

No, what I think is funny is your repeatedly falsely claiming that I do not accept what God has actually said.

What is just as bad is your totally false claim that I "require God to determine all things as that is the calvinist mantra." You can search every post that I have made on BB and not find a single time when I backed my positions by touting what Calvinism teaches.

You keep falsely claiming that I do not accept what God has said to Adam. You have nothing to back that up. God did not say to Adam that he would die randomly by a purely mechanical process in which God would not be involved in any way. The Bible never says what you falsely claim that it says about how or when Adam died. You are reading your own thoughts into the text.

Adam died precisely when God took his breath away, just as Ps. 104:29 says. Psalm 104:29 says that in what you call "the cycle of life," God is the One who takes away their breath, they die, and return to dust.

According to your misreading of Psalm 104:29, the words "thou takest away" do not mean what they say. You are wrong.

Moreover, it is astounding that you actually believe that anyone or anything else is responsible for making alive. According to what the Bible actually says, God is the One who breathed into Adam the breath of life so that he became a living soul. When Adam died, the reverse of that took place as God took away his breath of life.

 

[Silverhair]

No, what I think is funny is your repeatedly falsely claiming that I do not accept what God has actually said.

What is just as bad is your totally false claim that I "require God to determine all things as that is the calvinist mantra." You can search every post that I have made on BB and not find a single time when I backed my positions by touting what Calvinism teaches.

You keep falsely claiming that I do not accept what God has said to Adam. You have nothing to back that up. God did not say to Adam that he would die randomly by a purely mechanical process in which God would not be involved in any way. The Bible never says what you falsely claim that it says about how or when Adam died. You are reading your own thoughts into the text.

Adam died precisely when God took his breath away, just as Ps. 104:29 says. Psalm 104:29 says that in what you call "the cycle of life," God is the One who takes away their breath, they die, and return to dust.

According to your misreading of Psalm 104:29, the words "thou takest away" do not mean what they say. You are wrong.

Moreover, it is astounding that you actually believe that anyone or anything else is responsible for making alive. According to what the Bible actually says, God is the One who breathed into Adam the breath of life so that he became a living soul. When Adam died, the reverse of that took place as God took away his breath of life.

The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death.

Show me where that is not true. Why do you struggle with what God has said.

Question
1] Because of who's sin do we die?
2] Because of who's sin do lost sinners go to hell?

 

[canadyjd]

…..

Question
1] Because of who's sin do we die?
2] Because of who's sin do lost sinners go to hell?

Romans 5:12 answers both questions…

… “so death passed unto all men for that all have sinned”

The connection between sin and death is directly stated. We die because of our own sin and we go to hell because of our own sin. If we didn’t sin, we would not die.

Hope that helps

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 5:12 answers both questions…

… “so death passed unto all men for that all have sinned”

The connection between sin and death is directly stated. We die because of our own sin and we go to hell because of our own sin. If we didn’t sin, we would not die.

Hope that helps

peace to you

The Question
1] Because of who's sin do we die?
2] Because of who's sin do lost sinners go to hell?

You leave out a critical part.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man {Adam} sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

So you really did not answer the first question did you. And you did not address the second question at all.

Care to make another attempt at it?

 

[canadyjd]

The Question
1] Because of who's sin do we die?
2] Because of who's sin do lost sinners go to hell?

You leave out a critical part.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man {Adam} sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

So you really did not answer the first question did you. And you did not address the second question at all.

Care to make another attempt at it?

No need to make another attempt. The first answered both questions.

You can attempt to explain why sin entering the world through Adam in some way changes the truth of the rest of the passage that “death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned”

Highlighting the name “Adam” and then “death through sin” cannot negate the word “BECAUSE”.

The passage makes a direct connection between individual sin and physical death.

Your statement that of a person led a sinless life they would die is contrary to the revealed truth of scripture found in Romans 5:12-13.

peace to you

 

[Arthur King]

… or is death the consequence of sin?

This is an interesting question I have been considering the last couple of days.

I viewed death as the consequence of sin, not punishment from God for sin. But now I’m not sure.

God “punished” Adam by making him sweat and toil while he worked the ground. Eve’s “punishment” was increased pain in child birth.

Suppose God told you “don’t eat the fruit of that tree, it is poison. If you eat it, you will die.” You eat the fruit and die. Did God “punish” you with death? Or did you die as a consequence of disobeying God’s command?

So, my questions are…

1. Are there any passages of scripture that specifically state God punished mankind for sin with death? I’m talking generally, not punishment for violating OT Law.

2. Are there any significant doctrinal issues with viewing death as “consequence”? As “punishment?”

Thanks in advance for thoughtful, civil discussion.

Spiritual death is a consequence of sin. It is the condition of being in sin. It happens due to the act of sin itself, independent from and prior to any penal response from God.

Physical death is a punishment for sin.

There was nothing poisonous or "off" about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil itself. The point is that disobedience to God is intrinsically destructive. Disobeying God intrinsically disorders a person such that they plunge themselves immediately, by the act of sin itself, into disorder and misery.

We are designed to love God and find our happiness in Him. When we rebel against Him, we rebel against our own design and happiness, necessarily producing disorder and misery from the act itself.

More on this here:

The foundational text for the doctrine of hell

And here:

What happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned?

 

[Silverhair]

No need to make another attempt. The first answered both questions.

You can attempt to explain why sin entering the world through Adam in some way changes the truth of the rest of the passage that “death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned”

Highlighting the name “Adam” and then “death through sin” cannot negate the word “BECAUSE”.

The passage makes a direct connection between individual sin and physical death.

Your statement that of a person led a sinless life they would die is contrary to the revealed truth of scripture found in Romans 5:12-13.

peace to you

I have dealt with your errant view but you still have not dealt with the text in Genesis 2:17 or Genesis 3:19. @canadyjd ignoring the truth will not make it go away.