Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

[canadyjd]

I do not care at all to discuss anything about calvinist or not. That would be a further waste of my time.

I appreciate your comments in the thread.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I've had enough of this discussion. Continuing it would be a waste of time. You can carry on with your denials of what the Bible actually says.

So you just continue in your denial of what the bible says even when I provide comments from calvinist commentaries that show you your view is wrong. So you are not looking for truth just support of your echo chamber view.

 

[JonC]

Just as Adam brought sin into the world he also brought death. Death is the thread that binds us all.

The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death.

Read Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

Read Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 and note verse 7 "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."
God breathed the spirit of life into Adam and he lived. He was made from dust and at death to dust he would return. That is the consequence for all of humanity.

We die because that was part of the curse that God pronounced on Adam.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

I agree.

I don't understand why some find this such a difficult concept.

Scripture specifically tells us that Satan deceived Eve. Adam listened to Eve and disobeyed God. Through Adam's transgression sin entered the World and through sin death entered the World. And death spread to all men because all have sinned.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree.

I don't understand why some find this such a difficult concept.

Scripture specifically tells us that Satan deceived Eve. Adam listened to Eve and disobeyed God. Through Adam's transgression sin entered the World and through sin death entered the World. And death spread to all men because all have sinned.

From what I have seen in the responses some require God to be wrathful. It seems they do not understand the old saying "there's a consequence for your actions".

 

[JonC]

From what I have seen in the responses some require God to be wrathful. It seems they do not understand the old saying "there's a consequence for your actions".

I think they confuse Judgment with the "wages of sin" because philosophy is ultimately driving their train.

If anything we should at least accept what is written in Scripture. Death comes from sin. Death is the wages of sin.

"On that day" God will judge the wicked.

 

[Silverhair]

I think they confuse Judgment with the "wages of sin" because philosophy is ultimately driving their train.

If anything we should at least accept what is written in Scripture. Death comes from sin. Death is the wages of sin.

"On that day" God will judge the wicked.

Unfortunately philosophy seems to drive many of the response that we see on here and other boards.

Your starting point will determine the end point. The God that Loves or the wrathful God.

 

[canadyjd]

It is simply wrong dismiss other Christians opinions on scripture as “philosophy” while considering our own as biblical.

It really does nothing to further debate since both sides make the claim.

Back to the OP

I am contemplating the idea that death is both punishment and consequence.

Consider this quote

So you think a punishment is a consequence for something that the person has done?

This is obviously true in every aspect of life. We punish our children for certain things they do. Bosses punish their employees for things they do. Criminals are punished for the things they do.

Without doubt, God set the conditions for disobedience. “If you eat….. you will die”

Is God saying if you eat this poison, you will die because you did something stupid, Or is God saying if you eat this poison, I will kill you as punishment for your disobedience?

Peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

It is simply wrong dismiss other Christians opinions on scripture as “philosophy” while considering our own as biblical.

It really does nothing to further debate since both sides make the claim.

Yep

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So you just continue in your denial of what the bible says even when I provide comments from calvinist commentaries that show you your view is wrong. So you are not looking for truth just support of your echo chamber view.

False. You are the one who is adding to what the Bible says to sustain your false views. Psalm 104:29 does not say merely that God "can" take away people's breath or "sometimes" He does so and they die and return to the dust. Your denial of what Scripture says shows that you are not looking for truth.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I think they confuse Judgment with the "wages of sin" because philosophy is ultimately driving their train.

If anything we should at least accept what is written in Scripture. Death comes from sin. Death is the wages of sin.

"On that day" God will judge the wicked.

Are you claiming that God has never judged any wicked people and will only do so in the future? Are you claiming that God did not judge Adam, Eve, and the serpent for what each one of them did in the Fall of man?

 

[canadyjd]

False. You are the one who is adding to what the Bible says to sustain your false views. Psalm 104:29 does not say merely that God "can" take away people's breath or "sometimes" He does so and they die and return to the dust. Your denial of what Scripture says shows that you are not looking for truth.

Does God take away the “breath”, as a general punishment for sin, or does God take away the “breath” as His ordained consequence for sin?

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

Are you claiming that God has never judged any wicked people and will only do so in the future? Are you claiming that God did not judge Adam, Eve, and the serpent for what each one of them did in the Fall of man?

Of course not. I already said that God will judge the wicked (that His wrath is "stored up for that day,").

But my default answer is "I don't know....let's go to Scripture and see."

What passage are you referring to regarding God judging Adam?

 

[JonC]

It is simply wrong dismiss other Christians opinions on scripture as “philosophy” while considering our own as biblical.

I disagree. We have Scripture. But opinions on Scripture regarding this topic are philosophy.

For example, do I believe that Adam would have forever lived in a sinful state had he ate of the Tree of Life? Yes, that is my opinion. But it is not God's Word. It is philosophy. It is Christian philosophy but it's philosophy nonetheless.

Too many prefer opinion about Scripture over Scripture itself.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Of course not. I already said that God will judge the wicked (that His wrath is "stored up for that day,").

I am not asking whether you hold that God will judge the wicked. Has God already judged any wicked people in the history of the world or not?

 

[JonC]

I am not asking whether you hold that God will judge the wicked. Has God already judged any wicked people in the history of the world or not?

It depends on what you mean by "judging".

If you mean like God proclaiming David sinned, or that Abraham was reckoned righteous, or that you and I were wrong to sin....then yes.

But men are already condemned and the condemned will face judgment (technically an exercise if that judgment) "on that day".

But insofar as death goes, that is not God's judgment on sin. His judgment is much more severe than death. And the Bible tells us where death came from (sin, which entered the world through Adam, and was authored by Satan deceiving Eve).

We can get all philosophical about it, or we can simply read our Bibles.

 

[Silverhair]

It is simply wrong dismiss other Christians opinions on scripture as “philosophy” while considering our own as biblical.

It really does nothing to further debate since both sides make the claim.

Back to the OP

I am contemplating the idea that death is both punishment and consequence.

Consider this quote


This is obviously true in every aspect of life. We punish our children for certain things they do. Bosses punish their employees for things they do. Criminals are punished for the things they do.

Without doubt, God set the conditions for disobedience. “If you eat….. you will die”

Is God saying if you eat this poison, you will die because you did something stupid, Or is God saying if you eat this poison, I will kill you as punishment for your disobedience?

Peace to you

Yes I understand that it will cause issues with the debate. But what would you call it when one group tells you that, for example in Jn 3:16, world does not mean world, all people, but actually means the elect chosen before the foundation of the world.

I agree death can be both a punishment and a consequence but then you have to look at the context to see which is the correct why to understand it.

God told Adam not to do X for in that day you will die. He did X, consequence, spiritual separation and as we see in Gen 3:19 a list of consequences the main one being death. It is as if you have never heard the expression "there is a consequence for your actions".

God does not punish man for everything that they do but there are always consequences for what they do.

Look at your example:
The consequence of eating poison, you die. Whether God chose to punish the person or not if they chose to ingest the poison they would die. Action, consequence.

 

[Silverhair]

False. You are the one who is adding to what the Bible says to sustain your false views. Psalm 104:29 does not say merely that God "can" take away people's breath or "sometimes" He does so and they die and return to the dust. Your denial of what Scripture says shows that you are not looking for truth.

You do realize that the Psalms are considered poems, its poetic medium recognized almost from the very beginning of psalmic commentary. Josephus, Origen, Eusebius, and Jerome all suggest that the Psalms are poetry, even as verse arranged in lines. Oxford Academic https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/35006/chapter-abstract/298739768?redirectedFrom=fulltext


In Reflections on the Psalms, C. S. Lewis emphasized the importance of studying the Psalms as poetry, with its unique forms and characteristics. He wrote:

What must be said … is that the Psalms are poems, and poems intended to be sung: not doctrinal treatises, nor even sermons. … Most emphatically the Psalms must be read as poems; as lyrics, with all the licenses and all the formalities, the hyperboles, the emotional rather than logical connections, which are proper to lyric poetry. They must be read as poems if they are to be understood; no less than French must be read as French or English as English. Otherwise we shall miss what is in them and think we see what is not.
2. What Is a Psalm? | Bible.org

You are taking poetry and reading it as if it were literal. God taking their breath away = they died. Not that He made them die.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But insofar as death goes, that is not God's judgment on sin. His judgment is much more severe than death.

We can get all philosophical about it, or we can simply read our Bibles.

These statements are merely your "philosophy" and not what Scripture teaches. Your claim that judgment is much more severe than death is just an assertion until you support it with actual biblical evidence and argumentation.

 

[JonC]

These statements are merely your "philosophy" and not what Scripture teaches. Your claim that judgment is much more severe than death is just an assertion until you support it with actual biblical evidence and argumentation.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You are the first Christian I have ran across that didn't believe the Second death more severe than the first.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are taking poetry and reading it as if it were literal. God taking their breath away = they died. Not that He made them die.

The NT writers use the book of Psalms more than any other book of the Bible, and they do so to teach doctrine.

Moreover, the context refutes your claim.

Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. 25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. 26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. 27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. 28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The passage extols the Lord's works and wisdom (104:24), which are set forth in vv. 25-30. Verses 27-28 stress that God feeds all the living beings that He made. Jesus' teaching shows that what the Psalms say was not just "poetry" because He declared as fact that it is our Heavenly Father who feeds the birds (Matt. 6:26).

Jesus is right; you are wrong. The same holds true for what vv. 29-30 teach.