Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

[Scripture More Accurately]

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You are the first Christian I have ran across that didn't believe the Second death more severe than the first.

No, that is not what I said. In your earlier post to which I responded, you made the faulty claim that judgment is much more severe than death without specifying that you had (only) the second death in view.

The Bible plainly teaches that the second death is more severe than the first.

The Bible refutes your notion that only the second death is God's judgment. Numerous passages show that vast multitudes have died physically as a result of God's judgments that have already happened in history:

1. The Flood
2. God's obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah
3. All the firstborn of man and beast were slain by God in the final plague on Egypt
4. God's slaying of 185,000 Assyrian warriors
etc. etc.

 

[Silverhair]

The NT writers use the book of Psalms more than any other book of the Bible, and they do so to teach doctrine.

Moreover, the context refutes your claim.

Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. 25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. 26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. 27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. 28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The passage extols the Lord's works and wisdom (104:24), which are set forth in vv. 25-30. Verses 27-28 stress that God feeds all the living beings that He made. Jesus taught the very same thing when He declared as fact that it is our Heavenly Father who feeds the birds (Matt. 6:26).

Jesus is right; you are wrong. The same holds true for what vv. 29-30 teach.

What am I wrong about? Do people die? Is there a consequence for sin?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

What am I wrong about? Do people die? Is there a consequence for sin?

You are wrong when you say that Ps. 104:29 merely teaches that people die and that they do not die because God takes their breath away so that they die.

That set of verses all stress the works of God in what they speak about, including that living beings die because God takes their breath away.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that is not what I said. In your earlier post to which I responded, you made the faulty claim that judgment is much more severe than death without specifying that you had (only) the second death in view.

The Bible plainly teaches that the second death is more severe than the first.

The Bible refutes your notion that only the second death is God's judgment. Numerous passages show that vast multitudes have died physically as a result of God's judgments that have already happened in history:

1. The Flood
2. God's obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah
3. All the firstborn of man and beast were slain by God in the final plague on Egypt
4. God's slaying of 185,000 Assyrian warriors
etc. etc.

The fact that God judges some for their sin does not negate the idea or reality the the consequence of sin can be death. Do you not understand that or are you just not will to accept it.

 

[Silverhair]

You are wrong when you say that Ps. 104:29 merely teaches that people die and that they do not die because God takes their breath away so that they die.

That set of verses all stress the works of God in what they speak about, including that living beings die because God takes their breath away.

That is poetic license. If and when I die in my old age do I breath any more, NO. Poetic license would say God took my breath away. If He actively killed me then He would have taken my breath away by doing so.
Does God actively take the lives of some, sure, as you posted
1. The Flood
2. God's obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah
3. All the firstborn of man and beast were slain by God in the final plague on Egypt
4. God's slaying of 185,000 Assyrian warriors
etc. etc.

But you have taken that to mean that He has to actively take all life and the bible does not support that idea.
Psa_90:10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away. [Poetic license for we die of old age]

 

[JonC]

No, that is not what I said. In your earlier post to which I responded, you made the faulty claim that judgment is much more severe than death without specifying that you had (only) the second death in view.

The Bible plainly teaches that the second death is more severe than the first.

The Bible refutes your notion that only the second death is God's judgment. Numerous passages show that vast multitudes have died physically as a result of God's judgments that have already happened in history:

1. The Flood
2. God's obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah
3. All the firstborn of man and beast were slain by God in the final plague on Egypt
4. God's slaying of 185,000 Assyrian warriors
etc. etc.

I agree that the Second death is worse than death. That is logical. God's judgment against the wicked is always more severe than the consequences of sin.

You are speaking of God interacting with man. Yes. We all know that even Christians will stand before God as their Father AND Judge. That is why we conduct ourselves with fear, knowing that we will account for our actions. BUT we will not face Judgment insofar as the Second death. (We are not under condemnation).

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That is poetic license. If and when I die in my old age do I breath any more, NO. Poetic license would say God took my breath away. If He actively killed me then He would have taken my breath away by doing so.
Does God actively take the lives of some, sure, as you posted
1. The Flood
2. God's obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah
3. All the firstborn of man and beast were slain by God in the final plague on Egypt
4. God's slaying of 185,000 Assyrian warriors
etc. etc.

But you have taken that to mean that He has to actively take all life and the bible does not support that idea.
Psa_90:10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away. [Poetic license for we die of old age]

Wrong. God has already declared explicitly in that passage that it is His doing that causes them to die:

Psalm 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. 7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

The teaching of this psalm is the exact opposite of what you are wrongly saying it teaches.

The verses that you cite were not given in a vacuum. They were given only after the direct, profound, and repeated inspired declaration that it is God who turns man to destruction, carries them away, consumes them by His anger, troubles them by His wrath, etc.

You need to stop fighting against what God has said and accept His truth.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I agree that the Second death is worse than death. That is logical. God's judgment against the wicked is always more severe than the consequences of sin.

You are speaking of God interacting with man. Yes. We all know that even Christians will stand before God as their Father AND Judge. That is why we conduct ourselves with fear, knowing that we will account for our actions. BUT we will not face Judgment insofar as the Second death. (We are not under condemnation).

These statements reiterate and expand on what you have previously said without acknowledging the faultiness of your previous statements. The Bible is very plain that God's judging wicked people is not limited to His punishing them eternally with the Second death, etc.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that multitudes of people died physically because they were judged by God. Do you acknowledge what God says to be true?

 

[JonC]

These statements reiterate and expand on what you have previously said without acknowledging the faultiness of your previous statements. The Bible is very plain that God's judging wicked people is not limited to His punishing them eternally with the Second death, etc.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that multitudes of people died physically because they were judged by God. Do you acknowledge what God says to be true?

I disagree, depending (again) on what you mean by judgment.

Typically God's judgment is viewed as that wrath stored up for the day of Judgment (or "that Day") when God will judge the wicked. This is the judgment that the martyrs under the Throne longed for, setting things right.

I also indicated that God will judge our actions (our "deeds"). That is Peter's basis for Christians being careful of their conduct.

I also said that God judged David's actions. God forgave David, but at the same time David had to face consequences for his actions.

And I said that God judged Abraham by reconning his faith as righteousness.


You seem to want to create an argument where one does not exist.

The difference is not God judging people in the present or future but whether we impose philosophy onto Scripture or believe what is written in God's Word.

The Bible specifically places death as a wage of sin. The Bible specifically places Satan as the author of sin through his deception of Eve, tempting Adam to sin, and death entering the world through sin.

There is a reason, IMHO, that the Bible repeatedly insists that Satan, not God, authors sin (and death).

I simply do not see a need to add to the Bible.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I disagree, depending (again) on what you mean by judgment.

Typically God's judgment is viewed as that wrath stored up for the day of Judgment (or "that Day") when God will judge the wicked. This is the judgment that the martyrs under the Throne longed for, setting things right.

I also indicated that God will judge our actions (our "deeds"). That is Peter's basis for Christians being careful of their conduct.

I also said that God judged David's actions. God forgave David, but at the same time David had to face consequences for his actions.

And I said that God judged Abraham by reconning his faith as righteousness.


You seem to want to create an argument where one does not exist.

The difference is not God judging people in the present or future but whether we impose philosophy onto Scripture or believe what is written in God's Word.

The Bible specifically places death as a wage of sin. The Bible specifically places Satan as the author of sin through his deception of Eve, tempting Adam to sin, and death entering the world through sin.

There is a reason, IMHO, that the Bible repeatedly insists that Satan, not God, authors sin (and death).

I simply do not see a need to add to the Bible.

So, do you deny that all the wicked people who died physically in the Flood died because of God's judgment? Do you also deny that all the Egyptian firstborn who died physically died because of God's judgment?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I disagree, depending (again) on what you mean by judgment.

Typically God's judgment is viewed as that wrath stored up for the day of Judgment (or "that Day") when God will judge the wicked. This is the judgment that the martyrs under the Throne longed for, setting things right.

Whether this is the typical understanding or not, it is a faulty and unbiblical understanding of God's judgment.

 

[JonC]

So, do you deny that all the wicked people who died physically in the Flood died because of God's judgment? Do you also deny that all the Egyptian firstborn who died physically died because of God's judgment?

Did you take the time to read my post?

Those people died because of their sin. So did Noah, just not at that time.

Does God destroy nations? Yes. Did God judge Abraham faith as righteousness? Yes. Did God judge David's sin and take action? Yes.

You are resorting to philosophy here. Just take Scripture as it comes. It will make sense on its own.

 

[taisto]

Did you take the time to read my post?

Those people died because of their sin. So did Noah, just not at that time.

Does God destroy nations? Yes. Did God judge Abraham faith as righteousness? Yes. Did God judge David's sin and take action? Yes.

You are resorting to philosophy here. Just take Scripture as it comes. It will make sense on its own.

Jon, how could Scripture More Accurately resort to philosophy when all they did was ask you two questions that you vaguely answered?
Here's the two questions that were asked:

1) So, do you deny that all the wicked people who died physically in the Flood died because of God's judgment?

2) Do you also deny that all the Egyptian firstborn who died physically died because of God's judgment?

Those are questions. You have an entire Baptist Board that has read the Bible as it comes and not had the same conclusion as you. When you have a 2000 plus year history of Christians reading their Bible and not having your view, it should become apparent to you that you hold an unconventional theory that very few Christians have ever held. You're ultimately claiming that 99.9% of Christians are wrong and you, with you 0.1% view are correct. Please stop talking down to people because you're convinced that the other 99.9% of Christians are wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong. God has already declared explicitly in that passage that it is His doing that causes them to die:

Psalm 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. 7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

The teaching of this psalm is the exact opposite of what you are wrongly saying it teaches.

The verses that you cite were not given in a vacuum. They were given only after the direct, profound, and repeated inspired declaration that it is God who turns man to destruction, carries them away, consumes them by His anger, troubles them by His wrath, etc.

You need to stop fighting against what God has said and accept His truth.

You continue to read your calvinist view into poetry which is not literal and deny clear scripture.

Wrong. God has already declared explicitly in that passage that it is His doing that causes them to die:

Psalm 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. 7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

The teaching of this psalm is the exact opposite of what you are wrongly saying it teaches.

The verses that you cite were not given in a vacuum. They were given only after the direct, profound, and repeated inspired declaration that it is God who turns man to destruction, carries them away, consumes them by His anger, troubles them by His wrath, etc.

You need to stop fighting against what God has said and accept His truth.

Yes God can and actually does those things but you seem to think that is the only way He can do things. The bible does not support your view.

You do not seem to understand what poetry is. The Psalms are poetry.
Most emphatically the Psalms must be read as poems; as lyrics, with all the licenses and all the formalities, the hyperboles, the emotional rather than logical connections, which are proper to lyric poetry. They must be read as poems if they are to be understood; no less than French must be read as French or English as English. Otherwise we shall miss what is in them and think we see what is not.

God is sovereign, why do you think you know better than Him how He will deal with His creation.

 

[Van]

Exactly how is it possible for a spiritually dead person not to sin?

Again, death is not just something that happens regardless of sin. Scripture clearly makes a direct connection between death and sin.

It could be a consequence od sun. It might be the punishment of God. I am still processing the idea that physical death could be both consequence and punishment.

What physical death isn’t is just something that happens apart from sin.

That is a secular humanistic doctrine contrary to scripture.

Peace to you

How many times must I answer the same question?
Are we "made sinners" according to Romans 5:19? Yes
As sinners, are we united with God or separated from God, per Isaiah 59:2? Separated.
When are we "made alive?" When we are together with God, Ephesians 2:5.
Thus, not be together equates with not being alive, thus spiritually dead.
Therefore, since scripture teaches babies in the womb have not done anything good or bad, Romans 9:11, but we made sinners, a spiritually dead person can exist before committing a sin.

 

[JonC]

Jon, how could Scripture More Accurately resort to philosophy when all they did was ask you two questions that you vaguely answered?
Here's the two questions that were asked:

1) So, do you deny that all the wicked people who died physically in the Flood died because of God's judgment?

2) Do you also deny that all the Egyptian firstborn who died physically died because of God's judgment?

Those are questions. You have an entire Baptist Board that has read the Bible as it comes and not had the same conclusion as you. When you have a 2000 plus year history of Christians reading their Bible and not having your view, it should become apparent to you that you hold an unconventional theory that very few Christians have ever held. You're ultimately claiming that 99.9% of Christians are wrong and you, with you 0.1% view are correct. Please stop talking down to people because you're convinced that the other 99.9% of Christians are wrong.

You misunderstood my post. I was not talking about Scripture More Accurately's questions but his instance that death is God's judgment.

You will die. Is that God's judgment against you? No, of course not.

Why?

Because Scripture tells us that God has removed the sting of death, that God does not punish His children (as opposed to "correction"), that sin produces death and all have sinned, that God's wrath is never upon the righteous (we are clothed in Christ's righteousness), that God has freed us from the bondage of sin and death.

Also, I never said that those in the flood didn't die as a result of God's judgment on men alive at that time. I said that they did, but also that Noah was a sinner.

You are making a logical fallacy (appealing to the masses) and an error (most Christians reject the idea that death is God's punishment in sin).

You are claiming that over 70% of Christians today are wrong and over 99% of historical Christians were wrong.

We discussed Tertullian elsewhere. His instance that death is not God's punishment (his work on persecution linked to that post) was how Christians historically viewed death. We are saved not from death but from its sting

That said, while in a minority of believers you still could be right based only on numbers (majority does not mean correct).

But this does mean that the burden of proof falls to you, as you hold a minority position. This is why it is important to go to the Bible.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You continue to read your calvinist view into poetry which is not literal and deny clear scripture.

Weak people who cannot produce careful biblical argumentation to support their positions have to resort to making nonsense, false claims about other people's supposed "calvinist view." Your desperation is showing.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Did you take the time to read my post?

Those people died because of their sin. So did Noah, just not at that time.

Does God destroy nations? Yes. Did God judge Abraham faith as righteousness? Yes. Did God judge David's sin and take action? Yes.

You are resorting to philosophy here. Just take Scripture as it comes. It will make sense on its own.

Of course, I read your post. Those people did not just die because of their sin; they died because they were judged by God, which you tellingly do not acknowledge.

You are making bogus claims about my supposedly using philosophy instead of Scripture.

The Bible explicitly teaches that many people died physically because God judged them. For example,

1. Exodus 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

God declared that He would bring His people out of Egypt by inflicting great judgments on Pharaoh and his people. That is precisely what God did when He killed all the firstborn of man and beast in Egypt prior to the Exodus.

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

They did not just die because of their sin--they died because God judged them fiercely.

That is not philosophy--that is biblical truth based on direct statements by God about His inflicting great judgments.

2. Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

This is direct biblical statement that God killed Er because he was wicked. Er died physically because God killed him. This is not philosophy; your claims are bogus about my resorting to philosophy instead of what Scripture says.

Etc. Etc.

 

[taisto]

You misunderstood my post. I was not talking about Scripture More Accurately's questions but his instance that death is God's judgment.

You will die. Is that God's judgment against you? No, of course not.

Why?

Because Scripture tells us that God has removed the sting of death, that God does not punish His children (as opposed to "correction"), that sin produces death and all have sinned, that God's wrath is never upon the righteous (we are clothed in Christ's righteousness), that God has freed us from the bondage of sin and death.

Also, I never said that those in the flood didn't die as a result of God's judgment on men alive at that time. I said that they did, but also that Noah was a sinner.

You are making a logical fallacy (appealing to the masses) and an error (most Christians reject the idea that death is God's punishment in sin).

You are claiming that over 70% of Christians today are wrong and over 99% of historical Christians were wrong.

We discussed Tertullian elsewhere. His instance that death is not God's punishment (his work on persecution linked to that post) was how Christians historically viewed death. We are saved not from death but from its sting

That said, while in a minority of believers you still could be right based only on numbers (majority does not mean correct).

But this does mean that the burden of proof falls to you, as you hold a minority position. This is why it is important to go to the Bible.

I am claiming that your position is 0.1% of Christianity.
You have been beating your horse to death here at the BB. When will you accept that no one is going to follow your view and just accept you are in the minority?

I notice here that a few people latch on to a pet idea and just beat it into the ground with thread after thread after thread. I honestly don't get it. It smacks of pride when people keep pushing an opinion that no one else is supporting.

 

[JonC]

I am claiming that your position is 0.1% of Christianity.
You have been beating your horse to death here at the BB. When will you accept that no one is going to follow your view and just accept you are in the minority?

I notice here that a few people latch on to a pet idea and just beat it into the ground with thread after thread after thread. I honestly don't get it. It smacks of pride when people keep pushing an opinion that no one else is supporting.

I know what you are claiming. You are wrong.

It is very obvious that you have never studied theology (outside of your theology). But most who have an education in theology or Church history know you are wrong.

Heck, even when I held your view I knew Ransom Theory was the primary view of Atonement until the 11th Century. I didn't agree, then, with the view but I knew it was the most common one.

And back then, holding your view, I knew that a mixture of theories within the Classic View was still the most common position.

I knew, for example, that Tertillian held Medical Substitution. I knew Irenaeus taught Recapitulation. I knew Origen held Ransom Theory. I knew C.S. Lewis held Christus Victor.

I knew all of these fall under the Classic View.

Why?

Because I educated myself in theology rather than responding out of emotion.

Did it bother me that the Penal Substitution Theory is a minority view? Nope.

Why?

Because the size of the camp does not validate or invalidate a theory.


But you are merely responding out of emotion, allowing your feelings to triumph over facts in your mind.


Have I repeatedly brought up the topic? Yes.

Why?

Because it is important. I know of some (not many, but 3...and that several years ago) members who have changed their position because of these discussions - and not because of my arguments but because they took both sides to Scripture. If only 3 people have been reached with God's Word it's worth the effort. But this means also that people who pass by the forum may also have been persuaded to go to Scripture. I have no way of knowing.

So I will keep on discussing Christ redeeming us, ransoming us, freeing us from the bonds of sin and death by dying for our sins. I will keep on proclaiming that God loved the world by sending Him, that He was bruised for our iniquities, became a curse for us, was made to be sin for us, and by His stripes are we healed.