Is depression sin?

[Pastor Larry]

But then there are people who can't help it becuase of certain predispotions

The word you are looking for is predispositions ... but to say they can't help it is the most damaging thing you can ever tell a depressed person. It removes all hope. They are consigned to live that way and that is the problem with the modern approach to the problem. People are told their only hope is to take meds. Recently I read James Dobson talking about winter depression without ever talking about God and his conclusion was, just hang on and it'll get better. And this guy is respected. What a hopeless statement. Up here, it won't get better til about April or so ... fortunately there is hope before then in the Scripture.

As for chemical imbalance, Donna, you are right. But a chemical imbalance needs to be identified, not guessed at. In most cases, it is not identified. Mood altering drugs are prescribed on teh basis of a conversation, not on the basis of tests for chemical imbalance.

 

[AVL1984]

Pastor Larry, you say "Mood altering drugs are prescribed on the basis of a conversations, not on the basis of tests for chemical imbalance." You make it sound as if ALL of these are. You really need to get your facts straight or clarify your statements. I know mine weren't given just on the basis of a conversation, and MANY don't have these med's given to them on the basis of a conversation. I'm not saying there are those who don't, but, I am saying I think you're way off base.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you read what I said, you will see that I said "in most cases." That clearly does not mean "in all cases." I think it was pretty clear.

 

[AVL1984]

Very true, you did say in most cases. My apologies. I had inadvertently overlooked that in my reading of your post. Again, I'm sorry.

 

[Pastor Larry]

 

[John3v36]

What about a War vet.

 

[Pastor Larry]

???

 

[John3v36]

Y'all say "Sometimes it can be casued by sin or a chemical imballance is not sin"

What is your a war vet? and have trouble dealing with the war thoughts?

Have you ever shot a man?

Is depression sin when you just can not forget?

 

[rjprince]

John3v36,

More VNam vets have taken their own lives than were killed in the war. But you probably know that. If you are having trouble dealing, stay on the meds. Anyone who tells you different is an IDIOT!

The deeper a hurt, the harder to forget. I am fully convinced there are some things that we will never forget this side of GLORY. Someone who has not been there CANNOT understand, and some WHO HAVE been there do not understand.

If you have been there, and are dealing, you have my deepest admiration and respect, BRO. You fought for my freedom. THANKS.

(But I will still argue theology with you, OK)

 

[rjprince]

OK. Idiot was too strong.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by John3v36:
What is your a war vet? and have trouble dealing with the war thoughts?

Seems like a word or two is missing here. But here is where I think we need to direct the conversation: Can a person control his or her thoughts? Can we control what we think about? The biblical answer is unequivocally yes. That is one reason why non-medical depression is a sin. You can control what you think about, even when you are despairing, and that was David's solution in Psa 42, 43, Psa 5, and myriads of other places. A war vet is no different. He has been exposed to situations that certainly affect the way that he thinks. But consider a man who has spent years indulging in pornography. Both might have trouble with their thoughts, but we don't deal with them differently. We tell people, Cast down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. (That's not original with me, BTW).

Have you ever shot a man?

No, but I haven't done a lot of other things either, such as smoke, drink, or take drugs. That doesn't mean that biblical answers are irrelevant.

Is depression sin when you just can not forget?

We need to emphasize to people in this situation that God does not command us to forget. In fact, many people think forgiveness stems from forgetting. The old phrase "forgive and forget." The two are unrelated. We will probably never forget many things, but those things do not have to control our thoughts. We now have the mind of Christ and should bring our thoughts to captivity to him. In this case you speak of, depression is a sin because it is a failure to follow the biblical commands to direct our thoughts after God.

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John3v36:
What is your a war vet? and have trouble dealing with the war thoughts?

Seems like a word or two is missing here. But here is where I think we need to direct the conversation: Can a person control his or her thoughts? Can we control what we think about? The biblical answer is unequivocally yes. That is one reason why non-medical depression is a sin. You can control what you think about, even when you are despairing, and that was David's solution in Psa 42, 43, Psa 5, and myriads of other places. A war vet is no different. He has been exposed to situations that certainly affect the way that he thinks. But consider a man who has spent years indulging in pornography. Both might have trouble with their thoughts, but we don't deal with them differently. We tell people, Cast down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. (That's not original with me, BTW).


</font>[/QUOTE]Okay so How do you
"Cast down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."
in your dreams when you wake-up in at mid-night?

 

[John3v36]

ps
I do not do meds

 

[rjprince]

John3,

If you were in VN no one will ever admit to all the things (bio-chems and other) to which you were probably exposed. I have some friends who have had serious issues. Meds have helped them.

Been butting in. I'm out. Will leave it to you guys.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Medications simply are necessary for some people.

Take the Vietnam vet who has recurrent dreams of burning children or decapitated women (I've seen plenty of them at our local VA hospital). He is supposed to simply "bring every thought into captivity" and then everything will be peachy?

Anybody who thinks this has a fundamental midunderstanding of the issues.

Should the MS patient simply get up and walk? Should the brain damaged patient simply stop having seizures?

It is wrong to wallow in depression and depend on sedatives to ease the mind.

It is not wrong to use a limited dose of an antidepressant or mood stabilizer (neither are habit-forming) as PART of a Christ-centered approach to dealing with these devastating conditions.

The last thing one of these poor souls needs is to go to a pastor (or more properly someone impersonating a pastor) and be told that if he just would get right with God all the problems would go away! That's like telling the homeless man "be ye warm and filled" and yet giving him nothing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Take the Vietnam vet who has recurrent dreams of burning children or decapitated women (I've seen plenty of them at our local VA hospital). He is supposed to simply "bring every thought into captivity" and then everything will be peachy?

I guess it all depends on whether you believe God or not. A person who wakes up in the middle of hte night with nightmares can address what they think biblically. David himself talked about laying down in peace and sleeping because the Lord makes him to dwell in safety. Why do we need another approach? Poor David ... only had the Holy Spirit to deal with his problems. How much unnecessary suffering he must have gone through. Fortunately, he went through it and gave to believers an immeasurably deep resource for worship and life change.

Anybody who thinks this has a fundamental midunderstanding of the issues.

Should the MS patient simply get up and walk? Should the brain damaged patient simply stop having seizures?

Talk about a fundamental misunderstanding ... Wow ... you really want to liken MS to non-medical depression? That is a horrible misunderstanding and a disservice to people on both sides.

The last thing one of these poor souls needs is to go to a pastor (or more properly someone impersonating a pastor) and be told that if he just would get right with God all the problems would go away! That's like telling the homeless man "be ye warm and filled" and yet giving him nothing.

I completely agree. That would be similar to going to a doctor who offers meds for something that is caused by sin. It removes all hope.

I recommend again Ed Welch's book Blame It On the Brain. It is a must read for people who want to get past these misunderstandings such as Charles demonstrated.

 

[7-Kids]

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Talk about a fundamental misunderstanding ... Wow ... you really want to liken MS to non-medical depression? That is a horrible misunderstanding and a disservice to people on both sides.

Say what you like - but ONE of us is actually qualified and licensed to diagnose and (if necessary) treat these people.

To say that all mental illness is simply a manifestation of sin is to speak from complete ignorance. Have YOU ever worked in the state mental hospitals?

Now I'll agree that a good deal of it is due to sin; and not all depression needs medication.

But yes MS and major depression are similar. They are both neurologic disorders and sometimes require treatment. There are people who, although they do trust God to help them, still have uncontrollable sadness. To tell them it's all in their heads is not only plain WRONG, it is also dangerous.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Say what you like - but ONE of us is actually qualified and licensed to diagnose and (if necessary) treat these people.

There may be two, if you are. I don't know about that.

[qutoe]To say that all mental illness is simply a manifestation of sin is to speak from complete ignorance.[/qutoe][q/b]I agree. I don't konw why you bring that up. I already addressed that and someone tried yesterday to accuse me of that and when I pointed out what I actually said, they apologized for missing it. Why don't you go back and look at what I said. That would dispense with your accusations about me.

[qb]Now I'll agree that a good deal of it is due to sin; and not all depression needs medication.

It is good to hear you agree with what I already said.

But yes MS and major depression are similar. They are both neurologic disorders and sometimes require treatment.

You are reaching here after something for which the evidence is questionable at best, probably non-existent. To say that major depression is neurologic is far from conclusive. Some may be, but we cannot say that about all, or even most of it.

There are people who, although they do trust God to help them, still have uncontrollable sadness. To tell them it's all in their heads is not only plain WRONG, it is also dangerous.

I don't know that I can fully agree with this. It undermines what God's word teaches us about the heart. To say it is "uncontrollable" seems to fly in the face of biblical teaching. It may be hard to control becuase of personality, life context, experience, etc. But "uncontrollable" is a very exclusive word (similar to "always" or "never") and I would be very hesitant to use that word. I have never said that it is all in their head. I think, more properly, that much of it is in the heart. We need to be radically biblical about treating it.

Have you read Welch's book on this topic?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Larry,

I'm familiar with it but have not read it. I think he's a former neuropsych researcher.

I don't doubt that what you say is true in some cases. But I think your oversimplifying it. I end up seeing alot of psych patients (not really my choice). Some of it is biological. I recall a man who walked around the psych ward with his (imaginary) pet chicken, going up and down (invisible) elevators. When you mention Jesus to him he began to babble about his grandmother talking to Jesus alot on the radio.

This guy was floridly psychotic. A little Thorazine and he was fine - and able to carry on a conversation.

I recall another patient who had depression with psychotic features. He was active in his church but went off the deep end. After being started on appropriate medication he was able to be counselled and has been dealing with things in a much more positive fashion, even leading the choir in his church.

I think you and others have been influenced by the Oprah and Dr Phil type shows that worship the almightly human spirit and explain away any sin by saying it's a medical condition that is not anyone's fault. I agree that our society is radically wrong about these things.

But the fact is that mental illness does exist and some of it requires medication as part of the treatment. Not all of it and not everyone and not all the time.