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Is depression sin?
- Thread starter John3v36
- Start date
I was referring to the fact the "psychotherapy" is not a good way of addressing life issues. Psychotherapy is not a well defined practice. It is certainly fluid and changes with the changing of times. There is no single recognized method of psychotherapy, which is one of the indicators of its flaws. I happen to know a good deal about both. The question, as always, boils down to what kind of hope we want to give people. How do we, as Christians, address these kinds of problems of life? I believe God has given us the tools necessary in Scripture.
I've known people who simply are melancholy in temperament. They attend church, read the Bible, believe in all that God has promised, but even so they are often sad and tend to look at things negatively no matter how hard they try to do otherwise. It's a constant battle for them, because they well know that joy is something all Christians are supposed to have. I think it's harder for some people to find regular joy than it is for those who may be naturally disposed to optimism. It's a complicated issue, one not lightly treated by those who are blessed with sunnier personalities.
I agree exile. I am one of those types who tends to be more melancholy. But dealing with depressive tendencies is the same as dealing with any other sin. You must first determine that it is not medical in nature by having a complete physical check up with a doctor. Once physical causes have been ruled out, you begin a spiritual approach. It is a complicated issue to some degree, but not nearly as hard as people make it. A person that has depressive tendencies should not be let off the hook any easier than a person who has tendencies to lust or laziness. But the key is that when we deal with people in depressive states, we have to be honest with them. Shielding them from the truth does not help. It exacerbates a bad situation.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Nobody has clarified the fact that there is ordinary melancholy which some call depression and then there is clinical depression. There's a great deal of difference between the two. If you've ever had clinical depression you'd know it can't be cured by praying or stoppingsinning any more than diabetes or heart disease can. Of course, I believe that God can work mericles and can save someone with cancer, diabetes, heart disease or serious depression. I'm simply saying that that's what we're talking about here, a physical illness.
I view depression as the last significant area of discrimination.A good friend of mine had serious problems (3 hospitilization, 2 rounds of shock treatment and ongoing medication). He lied on every job application because he was certain that he wouldn't get a job if he told the truth. The first time he told the truth was on his application to the Southern Baptist Seminary. They admitted him and now he's a SBC minister.
My perspective is that a lot of people speak out of ignorance on this topic as Pastor Larry does. My take is he's never had clinical depression and assumes that all who do have an experience similar to his. It's simply not true. Did you ever consider suicide as the only way out, Larry? No? Then you have no idea how deep that hole is and you have no right to tell someone with depression to get right with God and there'll be alright. Would you tell someone that who has brain cancer? Please tell them to seek medical help.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Nobody has clarified the fact that there is ordinary melancholy which some call depression and then there is clinical depression. There's a great deal of difference between the two. If you've ever had clinical depression you'd know it can't be cured by praying or stoppingsinning any more than diabetes or heart disease can. Of course, I believe that God can work mericles and can save someone with cancer, diabetes, heart disease or serious depression. I'm simply saying that that's what we're talking about here, a physical illness.
I view depression as the last significant area of discrimination.A good friend of mine had serious problems (3 hospitilization, 2 rounds of shock treatment and ongoing medication). He lied on every job application because he was certain that he wouldn't get a job if he told the truth. The first time he told the truth was on his application to the Southern Baptist Seminary. They admitted him and now he's a SBC minister.
My perspective is that a lot of people speak out of ignorance on this topic as Dr. Bob does. My take is he's never had clinical depression and assumes that all who do have an experience similar to his. It's simply not true. Did you ever consider suicide as the only way out, Bob? No? Then you have no idea how deep that hole is and you have no right to tell someone with depression to get right with God and there'll be all right. Would you tell someone that who has brain cancer? Please tell them to seek medical help.
[ January 29, 2005, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Do you live in constant, unrelenting physical pain with no cure in sight like Dr. Bob does? Are you able to walk or stand anytime you'd like?
I'd not be so quick to call Dr. Bob ignorant on this topic, were I you.
Suicide as the only way out? There's always Jesus.
I'd not be so quick to call Dr. Bob ignorant on this topic, were I you.
Suicide as the only way out? There's always Jesus.
Actually, that was clarified long ago in this thread, back on the first page if I remember. Clinical depression is diagnosed essentially by asking questions and looking for symptons such as are found in DSMIV. What is interesting is that all of those symptons that it speaks of are things that can be attributed to spiritual issues such as sin, guilt, lack of trust in God, etc. If you understand human nature and depression, then you know it is not as easy as checking off a list of 6 or whatever items (depending on the "mental disorder). It is more complex than that. Then couple that with the fact that spiritual issues create physical symptons. Most medical doctors, psychotherapists, or psychiatrist are not equipped to deal with those issues. They are, in most cases, grossly underqualified.
That is not true in all cases. Many times, clinical depression is the result of spiritual issues and I know that first hand. One can very easily cure much clinical depression by ceasing to sin and by practicing righteousness. (I italicized the word "much" in hopes that you won't miss it and accuse me of saying "all.")
That is not what I am talking about. I have already clarified (on the first page as well as many other places on this forum) that depression that is truly physical in nature should be treated as such. But many times, if not most times, that is simply not the case.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Diane, I'm sure Dr. Bob isn't ignorant on the subject. After he called me in my hospital room while I was receiving blood, he can tell you that I am not ignorant of it, either. Though I nearly died, I was in what I considered, and so did most of the hospital staff who were tending to me, very good spirits...optomistic of the outcome, and very much depending on God as I do every day for the leadership through this situation.
My depression is chemical in nature (clinical as some would call it). Bipolar disorder runs in my birth fathers side of the family.
Brother Ed, I only have to depend on insulin shots to some degree, and not daily, thank the Lord...at least not at this point. I may have to have insulin shots on a daily basis soon, though. And you're right, I would take my insulin daily, just as I take my depression medication daily. My wife can tell when I have missed that medication for a few days, though I cannot tell the difference. I'm not a negative person by nature, as someone mentioned about some who suffer from depression are.
Pastor Larry, I agree with both #'s 1 and 2. A full medical exam is needed before determining depression for ANY patient, even those with a family history of same. For a physician to prescribe medication for such without doing a full medical workup, etc, is negligent on his/her part.
My depression is chemical in nature (clinical as some would call it). Bipolar disorder runs in my birth fathers side of the family.
Brother Ed, I only have to depend on insulin shots to some degree, and not daily, thank the Lord...at least not at this point. I may have to have insulin shots on a daily basis soon, though. And you're right, I would take my insulin daily, just as I take my depression medication daily. My wife can tell when I have missed that medication for a few days, though I cannot tell the difference. I'm not a negative person by nature, as someone mentioned about some who suffer from depression are.
Pastor Larry, I agree with both #'s 1 and 2. A full medical exam is needed before determining depression for ANY patient, even those with a family history of same. For a physician to prescribe medication for such without doing a full medical workup, etc, is negligent on his/her part.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
My 15-year-old grandaughter has an
insulin pump controled by a mini-computer.
She just keys in how many carbs she is
going to eat (some point system on how hard
the carbs are to convert into sugar).
The pump pumps insulin into her blood stream.
From 33AD when Christ ascended into heaven
until about the 19th** century (1801-1900)
diabetics were considered guilty of
the sin of necrolatry* cause (if they lived
very long) they kept passing out.
*note, look it up in the dictionary,
**note, i don't have the exact figure
in front of me, my memory is usaully off
insulin pump controled by a mini-computer.
She just keys in how many carbs she is
going to eat (some point system on how hard
the carbs are to convert into sugar).
The pump pumps insulin into her blood stream.
From 33AD when Christ ascended into heaven
until about the 19th** century (1801-1900)
diabetics were considered guilty of
the sin of necrolatry* cause (if they lived
very long) they kept passing out.
*note, look it up in the dictionary,
**note, i don't have the exact figure
in front of me, my memory is usaully off
That may or may not be true. But that is exactly the problem. "Psychotherapists" (whatever exactly that is) are guessing. These issues are related to sin issues, even when they are physical. There is also a great assumption about cause and effect, which is way too deep to get into here. Suffice to say that someone not trained in theology is not equipped to handle issues like this.
Most church insurance contracts cover liability. </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry I agree with the post above this, I agree 100% with the post here; but I do want to add. Part of my work is to help keep churches out of liability, whether it be "sexual molestation" (using background checks, criminal checks, etc.), security advice (having windows on all children's classrooms so classes can be seen at all times and different things like this.
YES, insurance covers liability, but there is usually a fairly high deductable and you can just bet that your premiums will double or triple if you get a suit for incompetant counseling. Not only that, the civil suit can ruin the church's reputation.
We teach "prevention"---not how to fix it after the fact.
For instance, I run background checks every single day on all pastor, youth minister and children's worker applicants. There are different levels of checks, but with the Catholic Church scandals today, we take liability seriously and the insurance company would much rather you have documentation from a doctor in your pocket before the fact. Any counseling can go bad, whether we like it or not. Drugs may be involved and the physical workup didn't show it. I have seen this happen (and will not tell how the people cover up the drug tests online, but it does happen).
In today's litigious society, don't think for one second an attorney will blink at going after a church (especially a large one with money==deep pocket's theory.) This is a good way to collect on your insurance, but it is also a good way to get it either cancelled or the rates dramatically increased.
...just want to make that clear.
Pretty much by poking. If a woman complains of aches, pains and loss of energy and the doctor can poke her in 5 areas that are tender..... There are NO blood tests and it's termed a 'condition' or 'syndrome' but women claim it as a disease. </font>[/QUOTE]Diane, I like you, but you need to study up on fibromyalgia. There is a LOT more to testing for fibromyalgia than poking around on someone.
It IS part of the testing to determine trigger points that are inflammed, but they are not tested by poking it to see if it hurts and taking the woman's word for it.
There are many other tests used to eliminate similar diseases such as polymyalgi rheumatic (by doing a erythrocyte sedminentation rate on red blood cells), testing for Lupis (most fibromyalgia patients will show borderline lupis indication)
In quoting a doctor on fibromyalgia, it is definitely a poorly understood, but very REAL afflication marked by muscle nd joint pain, with earlier symptoms in its earliest stages of mlaise, muscle stiffness and soreness.
Fibromyalgia is extremely difficult to treat and each person usually responds differently to different symptomatic treatments.
Doctors are coming closer to a possible connection between past injuries, stress levels (especially in today's world), abuse and possibly even a viral connection (similar to that found in certain tumors.)
Many times women with fibromyalgia have difficult problems because at one time some doctor's didn't believe in it. Now that most modern doctors accept it as real as do now the insurance companies, things are changing. The only problem is, unlike what you are saying, the women I have seen with it have been tested for everything in the world and are almost to the point of giving up due to constant pain. I have seen it and it is NOT a craving for pain medications. Those I have seen with it would rather not take anything, but sometimes have to just to live from day to day.
If you will remember, just a short time ago, both "chronic fatigue syndrome" AND "clinical depression" were not considered real.
If you would like some clinical information on fibromyalgia, I can send it to you, but expect a LOT of material.
Men can also get fibro, but are more often than women, ignored, because men just don't get those sorts of things. So, they live with the pain.
I certainly wish you would reconsider the way you are posting about something you obviously do not have so that those with it do not feel any worse than many people have already made them.
As you can tell I get quite defensive about this. My wife has it and I have seen the pain and so does about five women in our church, who's main complaint is that nobody believes them or they don't understand them, or they don't believe they have been through test after test after test to rule out everything possible that could show the same symptoms.
YES, there IS chemical imbalance testing for bi-polar disorder. Would you like me to provide you with the scientific specifics?</font>[/QUOTE]_________________________
I would definitely like to hear all about it. It seems like I would have heard something about these tests in the past 23 years I have been practicing psychotherapy. I wonder why the dozens of psychiatrists I have worked with over the years have never ordered such tests. Fill me in. [/QB][/QUOTE]
My daughter went through this. It is a battery of testing that includes blood work. I do not know the specifics, but will talk to a few doctor friends I have. We have often discussed bi-polar disorder and they all claim it is an easy diagnosis (once they realize the person may actually have it--and that is where I understand a lot of the problem occurs.) I'll do what I can to get you the info. I DO understand that the testing takes a period of time and multiple blood workups are required during the different cycles of the disorder.
I do owe you an appology. I may have been misunderstood when I was talking to Pastor Larry, when I was referring to a medical workup before a counselor should assume spiritual problems for mental illness, I did NOT mean that a counselor could not be effective. What I did mean was that to prevent legal liability for either a counselor or a minister, I highly recommend that an MD do complete medical workups before making assumptions and not leaving these workups to the disgression of a counselor. I did NOT mean to degrade the purpose or work of a clinical or phsycological counselor. Sorry about coming out that way. I did not realized that it was your line of work.
Your job is hard enough without people like me making blatant comments about your capabilities.
That is not true in all cases. Many times, clinical depression is the result of spiritual issues and I know that first hand. One can very easily cure much clinical depression by ceasing to sin and by practicing righteousness. (I italicized the word "much" in hopes that you won't miss it and accuse me of saying "all.")
That is not what I am talking about. I have already clarified (on the first page as well as many other places on this forum) that depression that is truly physical in nature should be treated as such. But many times, if not most times, that is simply not the case.
Yes, but that is irrelevant. You do not have to experience things in order to give answers to them. You do not accept cancer treatment only from doctors who have had cancer. You don't expect your pastor to be an adulterer in order to preach and counsel against the sin of adultery. You are simply inconsistent on this point. You insist that I (or others) can't counsel depression because we allegedly have never had it. That is simply wrongheaded on its face.
Go back and read carefully what I have said.
1. I have said that depression sometimes has physical/medical causes and should be treated that way.
2. I have said that the first homework assignment for any counselee facing depression is a full medical checkup to rule out physical/medical causes.
So I have already covered these bases and have moved past them to real issues. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Regardless of your background and training, your lack of understanding of true clinical depression shows an ignorance of the subject. All TRUE clinical depression needs to be treated as a medical condition. It is possible that you have dealt with minor cases of depression which are not true clinical level of depression. In this case you may be right. But, then you must realize that it is very unlikely it was true clinical depression and if it was it was a mild case.
Your comparison of depression with sin is a bit much and can cause severe problems with people having true emotional problems that a pastor is not qualified to diagnose, let alone treat.
Would you have been burning witches in Salem? Now, that we have found out that a fungus with toxins caused seizures. Would you have treated grand mal seizures like demonic possession for those who have epilepsy?
Do not get me wrong, however; Spiritual treatment is INDICATED for ALL MEDICAL conditions, whether cancer or clinical depression.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Proverbs 20:1
No wise person will allow himself to be deceived by wine which is a mocker, or by strong drink which is raging.
Proverbs 21:17
Drinking Leads to Poverty
Proverbs 23:21
Admonishes to refrain from even looking upon wine.
Proverbs 23:29-30
Strong drink produces sorrow, woe, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause and redness of eyes.
Proverbs 23:32
At the last alcohol bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33
Alcohol fills mens minds with impure and perverse thoughts.
Proverbs 23:24
Alcohol brings on danger, accidents and insecurity.
Proverbs 23:35
Insensibility follows drinking, rendering man into a clod; and it is habit forming so that the drinker upon awakening seeks it "Yet again".
I COULD go on.........
http://www.iamnotofthisworld.com/drinking.htm
No wise person will allow himself to be deceived by wine which is a mocker, or by strong drink which is raging.
Proverbs 21:17
Drinking Leads to Poverty
Proverbs 23:21
Admonishes to refrain from even looking upon wine.
Proverbs 23:29-30
Strong drink produces sorrow, woe, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause and redness of eyes.
Proverbs 23:32
At the last alcohol bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33
Alcohol fills mens minds with impure and perverse thoughts.
Proverbs 23:24
Alcohol brings on danger, accidents and insecurity.
Proverbs 23:35
Insensibility follows drinking, rendering man into a clod; and it is habit forming so that the drinker upon awakening seeks it "Yet again".
I COULD go on.........
http://www.iamnotofthisworld.com/drinking.htm
D
dianetavegia
Guest
CONTEXT 7 Kids CONTEXT