Is depression sin?

That is what I have said from day one. It is most often a state of mind. I could really say "always" becuase depression always invovles thoughts. But sometimes the thought processes are affected by physical causes. I can't imagine why you would disagree with that.</font>[/QUOTE]I disagree because you have not proven that most depression is not caused by a medical problem--any more than the priests of yore' believed that those with grand mal seizures were not caused by medical problems.

I believe MOST depression (and ESPECIALLY) clinical depression is definitely caused by physical causes.

[quoteBy making these choices, you are putting yourself ahead of the doctor and medical profession regarding the meaning of "depression"; although I have no doubt that you feel that way, it does not make it correct.[/quote]]

It seems that most health care professionals posting here disagree with you.

Now you are trying to twist around what I said again. Don't pull me out of context. That is not a good way to debate.

I said that all illness of mankind is sin, because sin started illness. Man did not have illness until he fell and became a sinner. Therefore, all illness is a DIRECT result of "sin", but is definitely not always the result of specific sins by the one who is ill.

There you go again, misquoting me. YES ALL PEOPLE ARE SINNERS. What I am saying is that depression is an illness, caused by the fall of man (sin), like cancer and other illnesses. Clinical depression, especially, needs to be treated professionally and I can tell you from professional experience dealing with people who have problems that those treated by an MD with appropriate anti-depressants see a major change in their lives. Anti-depressants do NOT make a person feel "high" or anything else, they simply make them feel "normal" again.

Are there side effects? A lot less than you will find with your blood pressure medicine, unless that's caused by the person sinning, too.

Anti-depressants have been in use long enough to show a low incidence of problems. The one suicide issue with Prozac, I described earlier. Upon taking the medicine the patient feels stronger and is still depressed and this can possibly cause a suicidal tendency, but it is VERY unlikely. This was brought out years ago, but was quickly dismissed as such a rare event that it wasn't worth restricting the drug.

Modern anti-depressants such as Serzone have almost zero chance of something like this happening.

Minor depression? Yes, possibly caused by the situation the person is in, not necessarily because they have sinned or are sinning. Letting them know that there is hope can certainly not hurt, but with clinical depression it should be treated in the same way any other illness is. Pray for healing and let the doctors do their jobs.

 

Don't confuse him with the facts, Phillip. Like the typical "preacher" he's got his own way of thinking. He'll never concede, yet he's probably never been treated for it, either. Having been on both sides of the issue, and having been in the ministry, I know how it should be approached just from my own experiences and those of the medical profession that I have worked around and with for several years. It is related to sin in this fact for sure...that Adam fell and we all are sinners and sin and disease entered into the world. Is it sin per se? No? Even God's own prophet suffered from depression in the OT. It can be brought on by life's circumstances, yes, but I have to say that lifes circumstances DO affect our chemical balance in our bodies. Ever heard of "flight or fight"? Adrenaline. If one imbalance of chemicals in the body is found, there are most likely more. It's not just "sin", as some would try to push us towards their point.

 

So let me see if I have this straight. I have to prove that most depression is not caused by physical causes, but you don't have to prove that most depression is caused by physical causes? Surely even you can see through the double standard there. Think about it. When you sit down with a patient and go through your list of diagnostic issues, which of those issues are never caused by sin problems?

When you diagnose a patient with clinical depression, how do you know which chemical is imbalanced? HOw do you know what to replace? And how do you know it actually addresses a chemical deficiency? The truth is that you have no way of knowing. You see some symptons; you medicate; then symptons go away. You don't know if you treated the cause or not.

I don't know how many health care professionals are posting here, and i don't know any who disagree. We all agree taht some depression is spiritual and some is physical. Does anyone here disagree with that? I haven't seen it. What we disagree on is how much is spiritual and how much is physical. Go back and read. I think the posts will bear that out.

Now you are trying to twist around what I said again. Don't pull me out of context. That is not a good way to debate. </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't twistw what you said. I addressed it directly.

This is imprecise ... very imprecise. Most would consider Job's condition of boils to be an illness. Yet it was not sin.

This is true, and if he had not sinned, he would never have been sick.

 

I am always willing to be entertained on the facts. I am more than willing to give this thought, and in fact have for a great while. I have tried to find out if Phillip has read a major contribution on this topic. He won't even answer that. I can only assume that he hasn't. He gives no evidence of having wrestled through the issues. He gives stock answers that simply don't bear up under the weight of actual evidence.

I have been on both sides of this issue, more than I care to discuss.

This is a point I have tried to make sevearl times. We simply do not fully understand the affects of the spiritual on the physical. Welch deals with this issue in a good introductory way. Should I assume you too are unfamiliar with his work? Depression is often brought on by life circumstances, and in that regard by our response to or view of our life circumstances.

Perhaps ... but "most likely" is dangerous and inconclusive. Furthermore, it isn't demonstrated to be relative. I quit watching Monday night football and many other late night sports in which I have a rooting interest because a good finish gets my adrenaline going and I can't sleep for several hours after that. It is miserable.

I don't think any one here has said it is "just sin." All I have done is say that sin has these affects on our bodies. When you do away with the sin patterns, you also quite often do away with the depression. THe question is, Are we willing to handle it God's way to give true hope?

 

No, and ultimately yes, but immediately, probably not.

Alzheimer's has a known physical cause. Depression does not. As I said, the factors used to diagnose depression are virtually all factors that can be related to or caused by sin. BTW, Welch's book has a great chapter on Alzheimer's, as well as on depression. It is a must read if you are serious about learning about this subject.

OUt of all the questions you have asked, this may be the easiest. There is no proof that depression is inherited. Since we don't even know what physical cause there is for depression we certianly can't call it inherited genetically. In fact, remember what I already pointed out: Drugs for depression treat no known chemical deficiency. They relieve depressive symptons.

One thing that we know is that people most often learn how to deal with life's problems by watching those who they grow up around. That is the root of the old saying "Like father like son." It is also the a spiritual truth found in 1 John 2: Children grow up to be like their fathers. It is no wonder that children of depressed or melancholy people tend to be that way when they grow up. That is how they have learned to deal with life's problems. It is why angry parents tend to raise angry children. It is why happy parents tend to raise happier or more easy going children. It is a simple fact of life.

Sometimes, we over look the obvious in search of a blame, and this is one of those cases. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll have to disagree with you on Alzheimer's. I've had numerous relatives who've had it (including a Church of Christ minister) and the only way they can diagnose it is by ruling out all other causes of dementia such as a tumor. We don't know what causes it and we can't keep it from getting steadily worse. If depression is caused by sin or demonic possession that to be consistent it seems to me you have to say dementia without a known cause certainly qualifies as well. By the way, I'm not arguing that some relatively minor and short lived depressions aren't a result of sin, either sin that we've committed or sin that's been committed against us, e.g. child abuse. I'm simply arguing that the more serious clinical depression most often has a biological basis (which might also be combined with interpersonal issues or sin).

 

Alzheimer's is related to neurves in the brain. But yes, dementia can be caused by sin as well. I am skeptical of claims of demon possession today, but have no problem saying that sinful can cause dementia. It is perfectly consistent with what we know about sin in the human life. Depression is wholly dissimilar from Alzheimer's in most cases.

However, to say that "serious clinical depression most often has a biological basis" is not to disagree with me in anything other than frequency. I don't think it "most often" has one, and the truth is that you "think" that; there is no way that you or any doctor can know that.

 

Nor is there any way a minister can know it IS sin for a certainty.

 

But if we find sin patterns in the life (which you won't find by using DSMIV), you can address those biblically and see if that solves the problem. If it does, then you have your answer. If not, then you can explore some more. The modern medicating approach skips to easiest solution.

It reminds of the old principle, Try the easy things first. When you car stops running, don't disassemble the engine, and rebuild the block. Check the gas tank. Check the battery. Check the starter. Work your way up. Last week, I got so torgued at myself. We record our message digitally and on Sunday when I started the record, I noticed it didn't record anything. I spent an hour the next day checking the board, the amp, the batteries in the wirelesses, tracing cable runs and everything. COuldn't figure anything out. Then I leaned down and looked at the back of the computer. The line in had come about halfway out. It should have been the first thing I checked. The point is that too many times we are bypassying the easy stuff because we don't look for sin patters. When people live in sin, expect them to be depressed, despairing etc. In fact, the anomaly is that people who live in sin aren't that way. It is a sign to just how depraved the human heart is that people live in sin and are not clinically depressed, to use the common term. If we understood sin scripturally, that would become very obvious. But DSMIV never tells the doctor to look for sin patterns. Why? Because it does not understand the human soul. As a result, people trapped in that mentality are vastly underqualified to deal with the issues.

 

As are many ministers. (PL, not stating that you are or aren't...I don't even know you...Just making a statement of fact)

 

I agree ...

 

What exactly are you talking about Pastor Larry? I have no idea what you asking for. If you will kindly explain it to me I will tell you.

Based on your remarks about Alzheimer's you are also wrong there and you would be wrong if you were talking about Parkinson's Syndrome. Let me explain why. We know the possible root causes of both, but the only way to test for both is by ruling out everything else and then giving medication to see if it works.

There is absolutely no difference between this and clinical depression. Except for a preacher who is making an assumption that most "depression" is caused by a way of life.

The reason YOU scare me is that you will give advice to a person and after the doctor does not find a physiological reason for the clinical depression you will start probing into their "sin" life. Then you are going to start diagnosing. THIS SCARES ME TO DEATH AND WOULD PROBABLY SCARE ANY HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONAL TO DEATH.

You claim that modern psycho-therapy does not work, then you turn around and whip your own version of psycho-spiritual-therapy on the person in your attempt to heal them. Why don't you leave the healing up to God and the medical profession and you stick to pastoring your flock?

 

I agree 100%.

In fact, if you think about it; all non-christians should be walking around in a state of clinical-depression if Pastor Larry was right.

The thing that scares me is that he wants to practice his spiritual medicine on patients who have not been found to have a chemical imbalance. Depression, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's are all three found by eliminating the other possibilities. We know the basic chemical causes of all three, but they are not a simple drug test.

If the medication works, it is not simply symptomatic pharmacology. An anti-depressiant will only work if the seritonin uptake is not at normal levels, regardless of the cause.

Straightening out a person's life may help reduce future damage (if indeed it was caused by that), but it will not help damage that has already occurred to the body.

I for one certainly do not want Dr. Pastor Larry practicing medicine on me. My pastor is WAY smarter than that.

By the way, Pastor Larry, how much malpractice liability insurance do you carry? If you don't, some day, someone is going to sue you AND your church if they take your advice and you miss something and they wind up committing suicide.

THAT is how dangerous this discussion is and why I am so adamont about this issue.

 

I have asked you many times (I believe at least 5) if you have read Ed Welch's book Blame It On the Brain? You simply won't answer. I can tell by your responses that you are vastly unfamiliar with the principles he deals with. It is to your misfortune that you apparently are not familiar with this. Even if you don't agree with him, you can at least consider the arguments being made.

This is simply wrong. There is a great difference, and I am not making any assumption about sin. I am merely acting on the revealed knowledge of God that he has given us about himself, man and God's image, and sin. I don't understand why you are so anxious to rule that out.

ACtually, I would start probing the sin issues before.

I am not going to diagnose anything. I am going to disciple in God's word about sin and life and godliness. I leave the medical stuff to the medical professionals. I tell people to ask their doctor. I tell people not to stop taking any drugs without consulting with him. Even if someone were to tell me they were going to stop, I would tell them not to, until they have talked to their doctor.

It will not scare any health professional who is adequately trained to deal with the problems of hte human soul. It only scares those who do not know enough to deal with this topic or those who won't understand what I am saying, regardless of how many times I have said it.

I think what I actually said was that it provides false and temporary hope ... which it does because it does not deal with the sin problem.

That is precisely what I am doing. Part of the biblical description of pastoring the flock is dealing with this very thing, and dealing with it biblically.

In fact, I already said this. The remarkable thing is not that some people are this way, but that all of us aren't. It is testimony to our lack of understanding of sin that we do not respond in absolute hopeless despair apart from Christ.

I forget what the number is but I have no fear of that happening.

I don't think you understand how dangerous this discussion is. That is what troubles me. You treat these issues as if they are only about this life. If someone follows your advice, they might wind up for all eternity separated from God in hell. Is that your desire? With my approach, I deal with both aspects, the spiritual and the physical. With your approach, you seem very willing to omit the spiritual and risk eternal damnation. That, my friend, is what is dangerous and spiritually absurd. What troubles me most is that you don't even see it. I fon't understand how you can consider yourself qualified to speak about this subject so dogmatically when the best you can come up with is "I believe" as evidenced at the top of this page. These issues are simply too important to mess around and pretend like we can experiment or patch over things. We need to deal with real causes to give real hope.

I have pointed out several times that these medications do not address any known deficiency. They relieve depressive symptoms. That is fine as far as it goes. It simply doesn't go far enough and risks leaving the person in a dangerous state. I am not totally against taking these drugs. I am totally against the halfway method you want to use to address this very serious problem.

Go through the DSMIV list and tell us which of those characteristics are uniquely the result of physical problems, that cannot be traced in anyway to spiritual disobedience. And then tell us how a unbelieving medical doctor or counselor is equipped to deal with the problems that originate from sin?

 

No, I have not read Ed Welch's book. What are his qualifications? I read so many books I cannot waste my hard earned money on someone's opinion. Does he include clinical testing results?

Oh, and I suppose God has revealed to you personally that clinical depression is not a chemical imbalance. I see.

I thought you probably might, you seem very judgemental. I think I would be dealing with a person's salvation first and ignoring the fact that we are ALL sinners.

At least I am glad to hear this. Although, it flies in conflict with other statements you have made. You have made negative statements all along about anti-depressants, and you say they are not needed in "most" cases of clinical depression; but then you turn around and let the doctor make the decision.

At least I am glad to hear that you leave the medication to a doctor.

And since you are a trained health-care specialist, you would know that you are skilled at dealing with emotional problems?

Yes, I believe pastor's can council, but when it comes to depression, you keep putting your role in as the "doctor" and that you know better than health care professionals who are not trained in your "knowledge" that God has given you. Interesting.

And you are a trained clinical psychiatrist that would know this?

[quote)This is precisely what I am doing. Part of the biblical description of pastoring the flock is dealing with this very thing, and dealing with it biblically.</font>[/QUOTE]IF this is truly what you are doing, then I do not have a problem with this.

I don't disagree with you here either. Where I disagree with you is on the single point of clinical depression.

I don't think you understand how dangerous this discussion is. That is what troubles me. You treat these issues as if they are only about this life. If someone follows your advice, they might wind up for all eternity separated from God in hell. Is that your desire? With my approach, I deal with both aspects, the spiritual and the physical. With your approach, you seem very willing to omit the spiritual and risk eternal damnation. That, my friend, is what is dangerous and spiritually absurd. What troubles me most is that you don't even see it. I fon't understand how you can consider yourself qualified to speak about this subject so dogmatically when the best you can come up with is "I believe" as evidenced at the top of this page. These issues are simply too important to mess around and pretend like we can experiment or patch over things. We need to deal with real causes to give real hope.

I have pointed out several times that these medications do not address any known deficiency. They relieve depressive symptoms. That is fine as far as it goes. It simply doesn't go far enough and risks leaving the person in a dangerous state. I am not totally against taking these drugs. I am totally against the halfway method you want to use to address this very serious problem.

Go through the DSMIV list and tell us which of those characteristics are uniquely the result of physical problems, that cannot be traced in anyway to spiritual disobedience. And then tell us how a unbelieving medical doctor or counselor is equipped to deal with the problems that originate from sin? </font>[/QUOTE]There you go assuming again. I never said that I would NOT deal with a person's salvation. Salvation is more important than dealing with their sin. In all of your posts you keep harping on how sin hurts a person and how you are going to delve into their "sin". YES, I will simply let them know they are a sinner without any recourse of help and that they need to accept Jesus Christ.

If God chooses to heal them of clinical depression, so be it; I am certainly not going to give them any false hope. No more than I would to a cancer patient who I will tell that I am going to pray that God heals them whether it be through miraculous healing or helping the doctors.

[ February 09, 2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

Pastor Larry, we are dealing with one issue here and that is how a person with clinical depression is handled and I never implied that I was not concerned about a person's well-being in the after-life and I do NOT like your insinuation that I would NOT be worried about their salvation.

I will certainly be a LOT more worried about their salvation than their "sin".

 

Oh, you mentioned that sin causes dementia also. Then I suppose you are doing the obvious with it, just like depression, and delving into the person's "sin life". If not, then you are not being consistent.

 

Ed Welch is a counselor and lecturer at Westminster Theological Seminary. This book will not be a waste of your time or money. It will be a great help to your understanding of these issues.

No, just as he has not revealed to you that it is a chemical imbalance. You assume that. You have no evidence to show that. You have no clinical studies that show that. The best you can come up with is that when people take a drug, they feel better. That is a weak approach. God has revealed to us himself in his word and given us everything we need for every good work, everything pertaining to life and godliness. Do you believe that? I do. I think most depression is an issue of godliness and I bet if we were to sit down and talk it through with case studies, you would probably find that I have as many answers if not more than you do.

That was very judgmental of you.

Why would you deal with salvation if the person is not a sinner? It seems you just contradicted yourself. If you ignore the fact that we are all sinners, then skip dealing with salvation first because they might be a sinner.

Of course, it should have bene obvious without my saying it that salvation is the first sin issue you deal with. I guess the things that are common sense aren't so common.

Those two things are not in conflict. To say they are not needed in most cases doesn't mean that I am going to tell a person not to do what their doctor prescribes.

If you had been reading closely, I have said that from the beginning. You tried to misrepresent me earlier when this first came up and I pointed out that what I actually said was the person should ask their doctor. I did not tell them to go off of meds. Of course, reading closely and saying what I actually said kind of takes away your ammunition. NOt nearly as much fun to fight with someone who doesn't fit your preconceived comebacks.

I am not a trained health care specialist. I am a trained spiritual counselor and pastor. Those are the issues I deal with.

Actually they counsel.

You just made that up. I have constantly said I am not putting myself in teh position of hte doctor. You just seem very resistant to actually accepting what I say. Taht is what is interesting ... and somewhat infuriating.

I konw that when a "trained clinical psyciatrist" does not deal with sin issues in terms of repentance and rehabituation, they are giving false hope. This is where understanding the sin nature plays such a vital role, and it is why someone who is not trained in theology is illequipped to deal with the issue.

You avoided my question about clinical depression. Here it is again. Are you willing to go through this exercise and face the reality of the conclusion?

Go through the DSMIV list and tell us which of those characteristics are uniquely the result of physical problems, that cannot be traced in anyway to spiritual disobedience. And then tell us how a unbelieving medical doctor or counselor is equipped to deal with the problems that originate from sin?

I am not sure I brought that up, but I may have. I don't remember exactly what I said about it. My point is that you seem very willing to underestimate the spiritual affects of sin.

And how do you do one without the other? I don't want to be offensive, but do we even agree on the topic of salvation? It doesn't seem so if you think you can deal with salvation without dealing with sin.

If their clinical depression is the result of sin, then God will heal through through repentance. It can happen no other way. Do you bring that up with your patients? Do you address their sinful life habits that contribute to their current state?

 

I don't like the insinuations you have made about me and my position. I don't think you are unconcerned about their after life. But nor do I think your approach is the right one. And more troubling is that you seem unwilling to even interact with the biblical truth.

Dementia is a different kind of thing that renders intelligible conversation impossible at times. I think what I said was that it can be caused by sin. Which is, strangely enough, the same thing I said about depression. You keep overlooking the small words that mean a lot. Obviously dementia is in a very different thing than depression, and its affects are very different. I am sure you know that, but I am confused why you don't let on that you know that. YOu seem to want to lump all these things together in hopes of strengthening your position. It doesn't help however because these things are so vastly different. But even with dementia, where there are sin patterns, you confront them biblically. Welch deals with this.

 

Why would you deal with salvation if the person is not a sinner? It seems you just contradicted yourself. If you ignore the fact that we are all sinners, then skip dealing with salvation first because they might be a sinner.

Of course, it should have bene obvious without my saying it that salvation is the first sin issue you deal with. I guess the things that are common sense aren't so common.

</font>[/QUOTE]
Here is another example where you try to twist my words around. If you honestly don't understand what I am saying, then I forgive you for it; otherwise, I honestly think you are doing this on purpose and it is uncalled for in a debate.

You are AGAIN making an assumption that I do not care about sin. The FIX for sin is "salvation". YOU have constantly argued that you delve into a person's "sin" life without mentioning salvation until this point (unless I have missed it). So, please quit trying to make me sound like a cold hearted person who doesn't believe that sin is real and is a real problem.

I am saying that I would be concerned with the SALVATION of that person and let the DOCTOR fix the depression and I still disagree with your theory on the majority of clinical-depression is caused by non physiological means and if I have to start dragging out my biology books to make that arguement, I guess I can and we can debate it from the point of scientific findings in clinical settings.

 

Never mind Larry. You can think bad things about me all you want and say that I don't care about the after life all you want.

My point is that the causal factor of clinical depression is related to electro-chemical activity of the brain which can and is appropriately corrected with medications.

Whether or not I bring the Bible into that statement has NOTHING to do with what I believe about sin, the Bible or salvation. So, please, pull in your claws and debate the subject not the person and if you cannot, you may feel free to debate by yourself.