Is depression sin?

</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but what I get from the contexts is the king should not drink because he is the one who passes out justus and should have a clear mine. what the drink can be used for is a painkiller perishing (on death bed) or the depressed.

How would you use it?

 

7-kids, I have to agree with you that it was obviously prescribed for that particular reason. Proverbs and other scriptures warn against abuse of wine. Obviously, wine was used at the party where Jesus was at and He himself made new wine for the party as His first miracle in John. Paul also mentioned (to Timothy I think) to take some wine for his stomach's sake.

Proverbs and other chapters warn againt getting under the "control" of intoxicating beverages.

I also agree with you that wine was used as therapy and medication and to help people forget the situation they are in. This is very clear---so, the bottom line is, modern drugs are even more desirable because there is little potential for abuse of an antidepressant like there is with alcohol. So, therefore, I believe the Bible agrees that it is definitely okay to medicate depression.

 

Boy, this is a huge assumption you are making. Why would you assume that I lack understanding on "true clinical depression"? That is pure nonsense. You and I disagree on how to handle it. That doesn't mean i don't understand it. I think it may rather indicate that you don't under the spiritual implications of it.

It isn't a bit much at all. In fact, the Bible defines depression as sin, even "true clinical depression" that is not caused by physical issues. A personal having true emotional problems that are not physical needs those emotions to be brought under the authority of God through is word. A trained pastor is not only qualified to diagnose and treat that, he is obligated under God to do so and he sins against God and his people if he does not do so.

Not at all ... This is silly. I have long said that we (including the psychologists and medical field) simply do not know enough about the working of the human body to make dogmatic statements. That is why I find your dogmatism rather out of place. People do not understand in many cases what the issues are. In my conversation with you, I am finding that to be the case. We do not understand the affects of sin on the human condition. It affects so many areas of our beings that we easily write it off to medical causes. A friend of mine several years ago had some physical issues and went to the doctor. The doctor said it was stress related and wanted to put him on meds for it. The guy realized that if it was stress related there was a biblical way to handle and did that. His condition went away without taking meds. Another friend of mine that was on all kinds of meds was psychotic and was rudely mistreating his family and those around him. I told his son (a friend of mine) that they needed to get the doctor to look at the meds. On a weekend, he ran out and could not get them refilled. Within 24 hours he was a totally different person, back to his "old self" that his family loved. I say that to say this: Modern psychology and medicine is grossly ignorant of the causes of things. WE are learning more all the time. It is absolutely foolish to suggest that all "clinical depression" should be treated as medical. There is no reason to say that. Some may be ... but certainly not all. Clinical depression brought on by sinful choices in thought and deed needs to be treated by repentance. A psychologist is completely unable to handle that.

I don't think you treat cancer with spiritual treatment. I don't think you treat medical conditions with spiritual treatment per se. They are medical conditions, issues of the material, not the immaterial.

I ask you what I asked Charles: Have you read Welch's book?

 

Larry,

Boy, this is a huge assumption you are making. Why would you assume that I lack understanding on "true clinical depression"? That is pure nonsense. You and I disagree on how to handle it. That doesn't mean i don't understand it. I think it may rather indicate that you don't under the spiritual implications of it.

I'm sorry if I was too harsh in some of my prior posts. But I'll agree somewhat with Philip here. I think you mean well but I don't think you fully understand the issues, at least from the medical perspective. I would however be interested in reading that book you mentioned.

 

I don't think it is a matter of harshness necessarily. I just don't see any possible grounds on which you can make such statements. The medical end of things needs to be addressed. There is no doubt about that. But if testable medical issues are not found, then it must be addressed spiritually. That is what I think you and Philip are not dealing adequately with.

I do think it is permissable to use meds for a stop gap situation. I don't think it is necessary and I think it is usually unwise. But we have to dael with real issues and real problems. In most cases, medication does not do that.

 

The thing that I think your not addressing is the fact that brain chemistry does affect our moods and behaviors. My mother in law had a ruptured cerebral aneurysm - she went to surgery in a coma, which is a very bad prognostic sign. By the grace of God she not only survived but recovered fully. The only thing is that her personality is different in sutble ways. This is reported quite often in the medical literature.

The same is true for people with depression. Now I'll grant you that many of the people we label as "depressed" are NOT dealing with the spiritual aspects of things appropriately. But I think you underestimate the the degree to which brain chemistry is involved.

My stance is this:

A Christian who is feeling depressed should ask God for grace to get through things, and take stock of the things he/she has been given and the responsibilities he/she needs to fulfill. For some the feelings of sadness are related to an event like the death of a loved one. For others there is sometimes no reason. These people will say, "everything is great and I should be happy but I just can't". Both of these people should not feel bad about taking non habit-forming antidepressants as part of dealing with things.

I agree that our society wants to make everything a "medical issue" and thereby exonerate the individual from ANY fault. That doesn't mean that some people don't still have real problems.

 

YOu didn't say anything that I haven't already said Charles. My caveat to that is that people who are "sad for no reason" do have a reason to be sad. They simply need to find out what it is. I would also add that "being happy" is not a goal in life. I think too many people looking for the wrong things.

I do think that brain chemistry plays a huge deal. It is the way God created the body, and sin does affect that brain chemistry. We can't underestimate the reality of living in fallen world.

We do not know the long term effects of antidepressants. That, to me, is great cause for concern.

I think a Christian who feels depressed needs to find out why. The ultimate reason is this: Things are not what they expect them to be; therefore, they are depressed for it. Depression, in one way or another, is always tied to expectations. Even when there is no apparent reason, expectations are not being met. We need to ask whether those are legitimate expectations, what is causing us to be disatisfied with our current state of affairs in life, etc. Sometimes, there are medical reasons for it and we should address those medically.

 

You say one thing and then say another. If brain chemistry is a factor, then it is physical and should be treated as such, just like you mentioned about cancer.

Long term effects? Having worked with the health-care industry, I find that the long-term effects of most anti-depressants is fairly well understood. Do you realize just how long anti-depressants have been on the market?

Let me add another problem with that statement. Our pastor had CML leukemia and was literally cured using a brand new experimental medication. If the medication is "indicated" then the short term effects certainly out-weigh hte long-term effects.

I also think you are confusing plain sadness for true "clinical depression". There is a big difference.

The reason I said what I said about your knowledge of the subject is confirmed by your statement about a psychotic person. If a person has true psychosis, then it needs to be treated as such with the indicated medications. The same with Bi-polar syndrome.

The reason I mentioned epilepsy to you is to show you a disease that was once thought by pastors to be demon possession and now it is understood to be a true physical ailment. I think you will find that true clinical depression and CERTAINLY psychosis is caused by physical factors, some of which we may not yet be able to actually monitor. As time goes on, these will be understood better.

As for sin, all illness is a result of man's sin. Not necessarily the person themselves, but the downfall of the human race.

Also, regarding cancer. It is well known that the body has great capacity to heal itself and much of that capacity is controlled by the brain itself. By using spiritual treatment along with medical treatment the person has a much better chance to survive.

I also agree with the post above that many things are being used as medical conditions to take the blame away from people. This is true, but it is also true that there is usually something wrong upstairs with any person who commits a major crime such as murder. Regardless, that person should be punished. In my opinion, a person HAS to have a mental problem to do such a thing, regardless of whether the court finds him responsible or not. This should not be used as an excuse not to exact punishment on those who do break the law. (I just wanted to clarify my stance on that.)

I have handled a lot of child abuse cases. A child molester has a screw loose, really, but this certainly does not mean you do not hold him responsible for the crime. You should also watch this person because that screw is always going to be loose and if the temptation presents itself, the liklihood of doing it again is extremely high. This is the reason we do intense background checks on such employees.

BUT, that child molester may also be bi-polar and if they do not continue to take their medication are much more capable of doing their evil deeds than if they stay on their medication.

 

No, Phillip. It is very frustrating when you don't read. Go back and read my posts and see how many times I have already said that physical/medical issues should be treated like physical/medical issues. I don't know how to make that any plainer. It is absolutely inexcusable for you to continue to act like I have not made that distinction.

Yes, I do. But there are increasing numbers of new drugs that are on the market that we do not know what the affects are 20 , 30, 40 and 50 years out is. Recently studies have shown that some people are anti-depressants are more likely to be suicidal and have other side effects. A child in on trial for murder right now and the lawyers are blaming in Zoloft. So my point stands ...

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have a problem with experimental treatments. I think they can be beneficial. But the people know on the front end what the risks are. You are certainly not addressing my comments and my position with things like this.

No, I am not confusing them at all. I already made that plain.

What did I say about a psychotic person that led to this? I think part of the problem is that you have quit reading and thinking and decided that whatever I say you are going to contradict. That is not a good way to have a discussion.

Thanks for repeating what I already said. The question for you is, Why did you act like I didn't say it?

I am glad to hear you agree with me on this.

 

[ January 31, 2005, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]

 

Okay, so you have a child molester who has molested a 13 year old from 9 to 15 about three times a week and once he becomes a Christian you leave him alone in a nursery, or send him as a sponsor on a kids church camp.

Let me explain something very clearly to you. God CAN change anybody; but he also gave us brains NOT TO BE STUPID. Read again what I said: I said that a person like this SHOULD be watched. If you wish to ignore this warning you do so at your own risk.

It is NOT for you or me to make the decision that God has indeed converted a child molester. Every single one that I have been involved with in cases would make YOU think they were the best people in the world (and usually quite smart too). Knowing the profile like I do, I seriously doubt you would recognize one if he were in your church, in fact, he would be one of the LEAST likely people you would guess.

My point here is not that God can change a person. My point is that you and I are not qualified to make that determination--therefore, this is why we do heavy background checks. So, your statement is wrong and I stand on my statement that MOST child molesters WILL do it again given the opportunity.

Yes, I have heard YOUR argument before by pastors who are unfamiliar with these cases---
(Oh, he had such a dramatic conversion, it just had to be real, you should have been there, he was crying on the floor, blah, blah, blah) Often I have had to take on a case where those good Christian converted child molesters got their next victim.

So, read my statement again closely and again, note what I say before you tell me the Bible says something different.

[ February 01, 2005, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

Thanks for answering the question. I asked when I said something about it because I couldn't remember.

You get upset that I said something about you not reading what I said, but then you do this. I never gave pharmaceutical advice. Go back and read what I said. You even quoted in this post and still got it wrong. I said that the guy should get the doctor to look at the meds. How in this world is that giving pharmaceutical advice??? You just seem to be making stuff up as you go here. YOu are not reading thoughtfully.

I doubt that very seriously.

You need to learn to read better. I have already said long before taht the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Second, not one time have I ever made these determinations myself. I have repeatedly said that medical examinations are the first thing you do. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand what I am saying. Do you listen to your patients this well??

It is a purview, and I have never made any recommendations about what people should do with their meds. I have always said taht a person should consult with their doctor about their meds.

Apparently not because you have made several mistakes already that I have pointed out.

1. You accused me of making recommendations about meds and of making pharmaceutical advice. I never did either.
2. You accuse me of making "these determinations." I did no such thing.

No I didn't. I asked where I said something about a person with pyschosis. I couldn't remember what I said that brought that up.

YOu were wrong. Go back and read what I said. I said that he should ask his doctor about the meds. That is not giving medical advice about taking meds. You simply didn't read closely enough.

Then you don't disagree with me because I never did that, nor did I ever recommend that. If you had read carefully, you would know that.

 

Of course not. I never said anything to indicate this to you.

You said that screw was always going to be loose. That is what I disagreed with. I am not sure that it stemmed from a "screw loose" to begin with, and if you are honest, then you know that you cannot make that statement dogmatically. It may be true; it may not be. And this subject hits close to home for me, so I do happen to know some stuff about it. It is not always about a screw loose. And yes, the person should always be watched. I never disputed that.

How was my statement wrong? Most child molesters will not get saved and therefore probably will do it again. But that was not my point. You are eating around the edges. My point went to the heart of the matter which is the spiritual nature of the conflict. A person molests children because they are depraved sinners who are not satisfied with God's plan for their life.

Based on your response you haven't even hard my argument. You may have heard others and are (illegitimately) pretending like I am saying what they said. As I read your response, I am very confident that you have no grasp of what I am saying.

With respect to Zoloft, I am well aware of everything you said. My point was that side affects of drugs are not completely known. No one "in the know" disputes that. That is why pharmaceutical companies offer disclaimers and cautions. My point was simply to point out that your confidence is not entirely worthy. We may know a lot, and we certainly do, but do not know it all. That is why your dogmatism is unwarranted, and why I have stayed away from dogmatism.

Please try to understand what I am actually saying rather than what you wish I was saying, or what other people have said. I have tried to be clear in a short space. This forum does not permit lengthy interaction, but there is no reason why you should be missing the obvious things I have said.

 

Pastor Larry, You are simply using an excuse that I don't understand you in order to debate.

If I were to go back and quote your statements in context it would be obvious to anybody that I answered your statements--you are obviously using this to throw me off center, but I don't destabilize that easily.

I have been around more child molesters than you will ever meet and I can tell you one thing, I have seen MANY of them in churches claiming to be Christins (did you not even READ my statement above regarding conversion of child molesters--goodness--talk about NOT reading), I would say 95% or higher HAVE A SCREW LOOSE and WILL do it again. I never said God could not heal someone, but he will heal a child molester just as he heals someone with cancer. WATCH THEM, THE ODDS OF THEM REPEATING IS MUCH HIGHER THAN NOT REPEATING. . .

I have met many experienced pastors who know this, but obviously pastors that take the attitude that you are will become lax in your protection and boom, there goes your liability.

You don't have to describe pharmaceuticals to me. You keep building strawmen when I make a statement. SURE they have side effects, ALL MEDICATIONS. What has THIS got to do with you claiming that antidepressants should not be used because, in your mind, even "clinical" depression is sin. THAT is what I disagree with. It IS chemical imbalance, just as is bipolar syndrome. I pointed out what you said about a psychotic and you claim I didn't read your post. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Wht scares me with your posts is that, regardless of WHAT you say about me not reading your posts. You are playing "doctor" just because a simple blood test is not possible for certain afflictions and THAT my friend is DANGEROUS. These people need "professional" assistance, regardless of what you think of psyciatrists. Use a Christian psychiatrist if need be, but use a professional. Trying to do it yourself will wind you up in civil court so fast your head will spin.

 

No appologies necessary. We see this eye to eye.

The only testing I know of is for bi-polar, not depression. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.

I know about the testing because my oldest daughter went through it, but I don't know the specifics of the testing and I do know that it takes a certain period of tests over a period of time. (I think they look for an enzyme that rises and falls with the manic / depressive swings) I don't know, and I'm trying to find the information.

It might have to do with the length of time the test takes and requirements. It may be more cost effective for a healthcare professional to simply try a medication and if it works then obviously you have hit part of the problem, if not all of it. In my humble opinion.

You can tell me if I am right or wrong on this, It is my understanding that on clinical depression, if it is suspected, the doctor will try an antidepressant. If it works, they pretty much have to assume it is clinical depression.

If they don't work, then they look at more short-term causes, such as temporary depression or anxiety, etc. Does this sound right?

The argument that I am having with pastor Larry is that (although he says I'm not reading his posts), it is very clear that he believes depression is sin and can be corrected without anti-depressants. Since there is no specific medical test for depression to date, he assumes that there is no physical cause.

By using seratonin uptake medications the person with true clinical depression should respond positively. Unless there is more going on, or it is not depression.

At least that is the way I see it. What do you think?

 

Depression

By Mayo Clinic staff
Overview

Depression is a disorder that affects your thoughts, moods, feelings, behavior and physical health. People used to think it was "all in your head" and that if you really tried, you could "pull yourself out of it." Doctors now know that depression is not a weakness, and you can't treat it on your own. It's a medical disorder with a biological or chemical basis.
Sometimes, a stressful life event triggers depression. Other times depression seems to occur spontaneously with no identifiable specific cause. Whatever the cause, depression is much more than grieving or a bout of the blues.
Depression may occur only once in a person's life. Often, however, it occurs as repeated episodes over a lifetime, with periods free of depression in between. Or it may be a chronic condition, requiring ongoing treatment over a lifetime. The disorder affects more than 18 million Americans of all ages and races.
Medications are available that are generally safe and effective, even for the most severe depression. With proper treatment, most people with serious depression improve, often within weeks, and can return to normal daily activities

http://tinyurl.com/5drzm


I'll side with the Mayo Clinic.