Is Drinking Wine Wrong??

[Jim1999]

We all know that the scripture does not condemn the consumption of wine. Perhaps we ask too often, What is wrong? rather than asking if it is right to consume alcoholic beverages given the too often bad results of society and alcohol. Is it a good witness?

It is a question each person must answer for himself, and nevermind quoting this verse or that verse, which is rather irrelevant to this century and how society behaves at large.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Chris L.]

Yeah, but they're trying to forbid people today from drinking alcohol,

Who is "they" and what is "today"? The Bible is my final authority.

so if the alcohol we have today is all stronger than the fermented juice they had in the Bible (especially with all the processing probably done to it, and many alcohols aren't even based on grapes like the Bible, such as beer, and I think the hard liquors, rums, etc), then we shouldn't drink this alcohol.

The wine and beer made today are mostly natural products made the same way as they've always been, through natural fermentation. The only difference is in the quality, and the containers used to store them.

A Higher sugar content in quality grapes would give it more alcohol. The wine made in biblical times was probably 8 or 9% alcohol as opposed to the 13 or 14% today, and the biblical wine was usually diluted or mixed with spices to make it weaker so it could be drunk throughout the day with relative safety, and it doesn't matter how strong an alcoholic beverage is, you can get just as drunk off any of them, if would just take longer for some.

 

[Chris L.]

..........

 

[Chris L.]

Keep on trying to justify drinking alcohol--go ahead and accuse "Fundamentalists" of taking scripture out of context--doesn't bother me. God is my Judge.

What I say does not come from "personal feelings"--it comes from Holy Spirit conviction and the Word of God. This topic has been hashed over and re-hashed and re-re-hashed and it's a "dead horse".

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (Romans 2:1)

BTW, Chris L., don't call me "dear"--thanks!

You're the one who is being judgemental. Who said I'm trying to justify it? I would never encourage someone to drink, that is their choice, something that some fundamentalists don't believe a person has concerning this issue. I would try to help someone who had a problem with it. Prohibiting alcohol isn't the solution, we tried that once remember? It's a persons heart that needs to change. They need Jesus.

How do you know I even still drink or have a problem with alcohol? I'm just standing for the truth and what the Bible says about it. Are you? Can you show me a verse in scripture that absolutly forbids all Israelis and/or Christians from drinking alcohol? Does Proverbs 1:26 have anything to do with alcohol? Post the whole chapter here for us to read please?

When you take verses out of scripture and twist them around to make them mean something that they don't in order to prove your viewpoint or to condemn someone that is called taking scripture out of context.

The wine in the Bible is not grape juice. That's absolute malarky and anyone with a little knowledge about history and the Bible knows it. You are not being told the truth about this. Do you practice what you preach and separate from those who teach falsehoods? Is it ok if the falsehood comes from the fundamentalist church you were probably raised at? Even if everything else they do is right and good, this one falsehood being taught could stand to be scrutinized couldn't it? Truth is truth regardless about what your personal feelings about alcohol are.


Why do people like you always assume the worst about everything and everyone? Do you think it's a healthy way to live always being in suspicion and fear of everyone you meet who isn't like you or may not agree with you 100%? Do you realize you're using damning judgmental Bible verses on a fellow Christian over the internet that you don't even know because you're convinced that alcohol is some unpardonable sin? Think about it. How sad that you would think me such a terrible, sinful person deserving of punishment for speaking the truth. The same thing happen to Jesus once you know?

 

[Linda64]

The wine and beer made today are mostly natural products made the same way as they've always been, through natural fermentation. The only difference is in the quality, and the containers used to store them.

The wine and beer manufactured today are NOT the same as in Bible times. The wine in Bible times was .01% and was not fortified--it was boiled down and diluted . Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines. The wine and beer today is "fortified"--much stronger than in Bible times. It took drinking all day long to get drunk in Bible times. Now a person can get drunk from one drink or a can of beer.

A Higher sugar content in quality grapes would give it more alcohol. The wine made in biblical times was probably 8 or 9% alcohol as opposed to the 13 or 14% today, and the biblical wine was usually diluted or mixed with spices to make it weaker so it could be drunk throughout the day with relative safety, and it doesn't matter how strong an alcoholic beverage is, you can get just as drunk off any of them, if would just take longer for some.

Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling. You need yeast added to the sugar to make alcohol-- there is a little bit of yeast in the skin of the grape itself, but it isn't enough to produce enough alcohol to make a person drunk--if there was, we would get drunk from eating grapes and raisins. There was no "fortification" in Bible times--therefore, the acohol content was very low--and most of that was "boiled" out and stored in wineskins--and when used, water was added to it.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

The wine and beer manufactured today are NOT the same as in Bible times. The wine in Bible times was .01% and was not fortified--it was boiled down and diluted . Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

Source?

Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling. You need yeast added to the sugar to make alcohol-- there is a little bit of yeast in the skin of the grape itself, but it isn't enough to produce enough alcohol to make a person drunk--if there was, we would get drunk from eating grapes and raisins. There was no "fortification" in Bible times--therefore, the acohol content was very low--and most of that was "boiled" out and stored in wineskins--and when used, water was added to it.

Again, source?

Plus, if fermentation and decay is bad, you probably should not eat sourdough bread, yogurt, or cheese; nor use vinegar or soy sauce.

 

[Chris L.]

The wine and beer manufactured today are NOT the same as in Bible times. The wine in Bible times was .01% and was not fortified--it was boiled down and diluted .

Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

Really? I know that sweet wines were considered fine wines back in ancient days, not boiled. Do you really think par-boiled grape juice would taste good? yuk!

The wine and beer today is "fortified"--much stronger than in Bible times. It took drinking all day long to get drunk in Bible times.

Oh do be serious! My alcohol percentage figures were probably a little high, more like 6% but certainly higher than .01% which is the close to the percentage for non-alcoholic beer! A person would have to drink 5 cases of the stuff just to get a little buzz! Anyway, there's no way I can prove exactly how high the alcohol percentage was, and neither can you.

Now a person can get drunk from one drink or a can of beer.

I suppose it's possible but very rare, and that person shouldn't drink.

Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling. You need yeast added to the sugar to make alcohol-- there is a little bit of yeast in the skin of the grape itself, but it isn't enough to produce enough alcohol to make a person drunk--if there was, we would get drunk from eating grapes and raisins. There was no "fortification" in Bible times--therefore, the acohol content was very low--and most of that was "boiled" out and stored in wineskins--and when used, water was added to it.

Actually, I've read the total opposite on that. Some books on wine describe Fermentation as a product of life. That's why wine collectors are very careful to keep their wines in cool storage and wine merchants ship fine wines in temperature controlled containers, because the heat can kill the wine. You can't kill something if it isn't alive. Fine wines are a living thing (or a decaying thing if you want to make it sound bad) that keep changing in the bottle, and over time you have "aged wine".

The term "fortification" only applies to port or sherry wines. Those wines have brandy added to them and are stronger than regular wines, about 18 or 20% vs, 13 or 14% for regular wine. Beer is not fortified at all. Wine has been with mankind since the earliest days and is a gift from God. As with anything, what people do with that gift depends on their heart.

Why do you call unclean what God hath made clean?

 

[JFox1]

I hope not! Otherwise, my church is committing a sin every time we have Communion. We use only wine!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (Romans 2:1)

Amen!!

The writer of the Book of Proverbs was showing wisdom throughout the 31 chapters of that book. Chapter 20 clearly tells us we are to have nothing to do with the wine when it is fermented.

Law of first mention shows Noah getting drunk and that drunkenness caused his son to sin and brought a curse upon that son. Fermented wine consumption will be followed by a curse, possibly upon the third and fourth generation (see Deuteronomy 5:9).

Paul was correct in saying 'Thou art inexcusable, O man."

 

[Linda64]

You're the one who is being judgemental. Who said I'm trying to justify it? I would never encourage someone to drink, that is their choice, something that some fundamentalists don't believe a person has concerning this issue. I would try to help someone who had a problem with it. Prohibiting alcohol isn't the solution, we tried that once remember? It's a persons heart that needs to change. They need Jesus.

By not taking a stand against alcohol, you are taking a stand for it. I believe that a person has a choice---either to believe what the Bible says about the consumption of fermented beverages or not to believe it. If you feel that you are being judged--it is not me who is doing the judging---it is the Word of God.

How do you know I even still drink or have a problem with alcohol?

I'm not the one who brought that up! Are you feeling convicted?

I'm just standing for the truth and what the Bible says about it. Are you? Can you show me a verse in scripture that absolutly forbids all Israelis and/or Christians from drinking alcohol?

The word “wine” appears over 200 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament, and it is used as an English translation for several different Hebrew terms. God commanded that His priests abstain from the use of beverage alcohol (Lev. 10:8-11), noting that they were to be a holy example to all Israel. Samson’s mother was commanded to abstain from beverage alcohol because Samson was to be dedicated to God in a unique way (Judges 13:3, 4). Apparently beverage alcohol and dedication to God are incompatible. Israel’s rulers were specifically forbidden from using beverage alcohol (Prov. 31:4, 5). Solomon emphasized the importance of avoiding wine that had been fermented: “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright” (Prov. 23:31).

Several Old Testament references, however, speak of wine as a blessing: Gen. 27:28; Judges 9:13; Ps. 104:14, 15. How can wine be spoken of as both a blessing and a curse?


The Hebrew Terms for Wine and Their Uses*

1. The Hebrew words translated “wine” in the Bible do not always mean fermented or intoxicating wine.

2. The Hebrew word yayin, most often translated “wine” in the Old Testament, means grape juice in any form—fermented or unfermented. The true meaning can only be determined by the context. Yayin is a general term referring to any beverage—sweet or sour, fermented or fresh—derived from grapes.

3. The Hebrew word tirosh, also translated “wine,” in all but one possible case means “new wine,” “unfermented wine.” This word was used repeatedly in the original text in the places where wine has a good textual connotation. Example: Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh—unfermented grape juice](Gen. 27:28). Note the association of fresh corn at harvest with fresh, unfermented grape juice at harvest.

4. Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

5. Having carefully examined the context of the uses of yayin in the Old Testament, Dr. Robert P. Teachout has concluded that this word is intended to mean grape juice 71 times and fermented wine 70 times.

6. How can the English reader determine whether the Old Testament is speaking of unfermented, good wine, or fermented, bad wine? Simply examine the context of the verse. Wherever the use of wine is prohibited or discouraged, the reference is to fermented wine. Where its use is encouraged, the reference is to unfermented grape juice.

7. Any argument for the use of beverage alcohol must blur the distinction in Old Testament usage of the word “wine.” In addition, such arguments must “explain away” the Bible’s clear condemnation of intoxicating beverages.

*Sermon notes from "The Bible and Beverage Alcohol" by Marc Monte

Does Proverbs 1:26 have anything to do with alcohol? Post the whole chapter here for us to read please? The wine in the Bible is not grape juice. That's absolute malarky and anyone with any knowledge knows it. You are not being told the truth about this.

The entire first chapter of Proverbs deals with wisdom and the folly of rejecting God's Word. I would think drinking alcohol would fall into this category. I responded to your statement about wine in the Bible in the above sermon notes. The word "wine" in the Bible does not always mean "fermented".

Do you practice what you preach and separate from those who teach falsehoods? Is it ok if the falsehood comes from the fundamentalist church you were probably raised at? Even if everything else they do is right and good, this one falsehood being taught could stand to be scrutinized couldn't it? Truth is truth regardless about what your personal feelings about alcohol are.

First of all, I was NOT raised in a fundamentalist church--I was not even raised in a church at all. I am a born again Jew--I was raised reformed Jewish and I have been born again and blood washed for 32 years. I DO separate from those who teach falsely--our church teaches AGAINST the consumption of alcohol and does so BIBLICALLY.

When you take verses out of scripture and twist them around to make them mean something that they don't in order to prove your viewpoint or to condemn someone that is called taking scripture out of context.

I took nothing out of context and I am not trying to prove anything--if you have a problem with what God's Word says, take it up with God--not me.

Why do people like you assume the worst about everything and everyone? Do you realize you're using damning judgmental Bible verses on a fellow Christian over the internet that you don't even know because you're convinced that alcohol is some unpardonable sin? Think about it. How sad that you would think me such a terrible, sinful person deserving of Gods wrath for speaking the truth. The same thing happen to Jesus once you know?

I never assume anything--especially about someone I have never met--and I will never assume that anyone is a Christian just because they say they are--or post on a Christian/BaptistBoard. The only person who knows they are saved is that person theirself. I never said that alcohol was the unpardonable sin---you seem to be bringing all this up. I am simply responding to what you are saying using God's Word--and you say I use damning and judgmental Bible verses on you. Never once did I mention your name in anything I said (except when I told you not to call me "dear"). I simply quoted you and responded. No fingers have been pointed at you personally.

 

[mojoala]

Wine of Jesus day was very alcoholic.

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old wineskins: else the wineskins break, and the wine runneth out, and the wineskins perish: but they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the wineskins, and the wine is spilled, and the wineskins will be marred: but new wine must be put into new wineskins.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the new wine will burst the wineskins, and be spilled, and the wineskins shall perish.

And why will a wineskin burst if new wine is placed inside of an old wineskin.

FERMENTATION!

As wine ferments, it cures the leather. The leather becomes more hard and less flexible. Also during the fermentation process, the wine releases considerable amount of gases which causes the wineskin to expand and stretch.

Putting new wine in an old wineskin? Well the old wineskin is already hardened and stretched out. So new wine as it ferments in an old wineskin tries to stretch out what is already stretched and there is further hardening. The result is a rupture of the wineskin.

Fermentation detoxifies the wine and the water that was usaully mixed with it. Water normally was not safe to drink in those days. Because most of it was stagnant. It was used mainly for washing. The Alcohol produced from the fermentation process also kills bacteria and other bad things. Wine was consumed at nearly every single meal.

Also the idea of boiling wine did not exist in those days. Boiling of wine is a modern invention.

Yeast was not need be added, since yeast would form naturally on grapes left untreated unlike today. Today we spray grapes to kill everything. It was more than likely they did add yeast to increase the alcohol content. Not for the purpose of getting drunk, but to provide enought alcohol to prevent it from souring or growing bacteria.

So was wine alcoholic? You betcha.

Drinking wine is only a sin when the consumption of it leads you to sin.

Getting drunk brings out your real self because it loosens your natural inhibitions.

Drunk people exhibit one of four primary characteristics:

Anger

Sadness

Lustiness

Happiness


Which one are you?

Don't know?

Maybe you ought to get sloppy drunk at least once and find out.

 

[mojoala]

Word for wine in the OT.

H3196
יין
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

H8492
תּירשׁ תּירושׁ
tîyrôsh tîyrôsh
tee-roshe', tee-roshe'
From H3423 in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine: - (new, sweet) wine.

In most cases where the word DRINK appears with WINE the first word is used. Otherwise the other is used in the old testament.

 

[DHK]

Yayin (Hebrew), and oinos (Greek) are like our English word "cider." The only way that you can tell whether or not it is fermented or unfermented is by context. If I go to "Second Cup" and order "cider" it will be apple juice, usually hot apple juice.
I travelled through Germany. At many of the cafes they sell cider. If I order cider there, it will taste completely different. It will be fermented. Cider in the English language can mean either alcoholic or non-alcoholic, just as wine can in the KJV, and the underlying words (yayin or oinos). The only way to tell whether or not the word has the meaning of fermented or unfermented is by the context.
When Noah planted a vineyard, and drank of the fruit of it, and got drunk as a result of it, we obviously know what condition the grapes were in. Fermentation is a sign of corruption in the Bible. That is one of the reasons we don't use it in The Lord's Table. The body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ saw no corruption.
DHK

 

[Linda64]

Yayin (Hebrew), and oinos (Greek) are like our English word "cider." The only way that you can tell whether or not it is fermented or unfermented is by context. If I go to "Second Cup" and order "cider" it will be apple juice, usually hot apple juice.
I travelled through Germany. At many of the cafes they sell cider. If I order cider there, it will taste completely different. It will be fermented. Cider in the English language can mean either alcoholic or non-alcoholic, just as wine can in the KJV, and the underlying words (yayin or oinos). The only way to tell whether or not the word has the meaning of fermented or unfermented is by the context.
When Noah planted a vineyard, and drank of the fruit of it, and got drunk as a result of it, we obviously know what condition the grapes were in. Fermentation is a sign of corruption in the Bible. That is one of the reasons we don't use it in The Lord's Table. The body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ saw no corruption.
DHK

AMEN DHK! Exactly the point I was trying to get across. The word "wine" in the Bible is a generic term--depending on context, it can mean "fermented" or "unfermented"

 

[Chris L.]

By not taking a stand against alcohol, you are taking a stand for it.

Nonsense. By not taking a stand against obesity, then you must be taking a stand for it. Do you tell all the obese people you see that they had better put the fork down and stop harming there bodies for Jesus sake?

I believe that a person has a choice---either to believe what the Bible says about the consumption of fermented beverages or not to believe it.

And there are many of us who believe you are mistaken about what the bible says about it.

If you feel that you are being judged--it is not me who is doing the judging---it is the Word of God.

I'm not the one who brought that up! Are you feeling convicted?

Nice try, but not on this issue.

The entire first chapter of Proverbs deals with wisdom and the folly of rejecting God's Word. I would think drinking alcohol would fall into this category.

You would think that? Are you sure? Do you have a verse that specifically forbids all Israelis and/or Christians from drinking alcohol like the Koran does for Muslims?

I responded to your statement about wine in the Bible in the above sermon notes.

The person who did the study obviously has a bias against alcohol and is mistaken. I could find many more studies on the same subject that would beg to differ.

The word "wine" in the Bible does not always mean "fermented".

But does it always mean "unfermented"?

First of all, I was NOT raised in a fundamentalist church--I was not even raised in a church at all. I am a born again Jew--I was raised reformed Jewish and I have been born again and blood washed for 32 years. I DO separate from those who teach falsely--our church teaches AGAINST the consumption of alcohol and does so BIBLICALLY.

Good for you, and I apologize but your response on wine was identical to the type an IFB would use.

I took nothing out of context and I am not trying to prove anything--if you have a problem with what God's Word says, take it up with God--not me.

You used Proverbs. 1:26 in support of your stand against alcohol. The entire chapter of Prov. 1 has nothing to do with alcohol per se, and could be used to back up a whole host of things. I could find some harsh rebuke anywhere in the Bible to throw at someone who doesn't agree with me. That is called taking the Bible out of context.

I never assume anything--especially about someone I have never met--and I will never assume that anyone is a Christian just because they say they are--or post on a Christian/BaptistBoard.

I give people the benefit of the doubt unless they prove otherwise. Wouldn't you rather that someone believe you when you say you are a reformed Jew and go to such and such church?[/QUOTE]

I never said that alcohol was the unpardonable sin---you seem to be bringing all this up.

I didn't mean it in the Biblical sense, but there are many who wouldn't fellowship or have anything to do with someone who drinks occasionally even if doesn't cause any problems for them, and they are otherwise and outstanding person. It would seem to be unpardonable in their eyes wouldn't it?

I am simply responding to what you are saying using God's Word--and you say I use damning and judgmental Bible verses on you.

Oh I'm sorry, I guess when you used Prov. 20:1 and this verse:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (Romans 2:1)

you were painting the whole lot of us with your broad brush and not just me right? Does that make it better?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I hope not! Otherwise, my church is committing a sin every time we have Communion. We use only wine!

Leviticus tells us that the priest is not to partake of fermented wine. I hope your preacher is not partaking of the communion if you use real wine. If he is, he is sinning.

 

[TaliOrlando]

I think that Drinking wine is not a sin its what happens after you drink the wine.

Proverbs 20:1 (KJV):
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 20:1 (AMP):
Wine is a mocker, strong drink a riotous brawler, and whoever errs or reels because of it is not wise.



Some Christians can handle a little wine but most dont just drink a little wine. Some start off with a little and then all of a sudden they start acting in a way that they shouldnt. Thats when they sin.

Problem is that some like to categorize sin and say well.....just becuase when I drink I curse a little its ok.....Just becuase when I drink...I threat my kids wrong..

Some people cant handle even a little wine and some people who were alchoholics and are now born again Christians once they start with a little wine they could end up with a little beer. I am not saying this applies to everyone but to some.

 

[mojoala]

Leviticus tells us that the priest is not to partake of fermented wine. I hope your preacher is not partaking of the communion if you use real wine. If he is, he is sinning.

hmmmmmm people say we are no longer bound by OT laws.

 

[mojoala]

The only way to tell whether or not the word has the meaning of fermented or unfermented is by the context.

That is a false dicthomy. Either it means what it means by the underlying Hebrew word or it does not. The context is derived from what original Hebrew word is used.

 

[mojoala]

Matt. 26:27,29; Mark 14:23,25; Luke 22:17-18; 1 Cor. 11:25-27 - Jesus instituted the Eucharist using wine and commanded us to "do this in remembrance of me." We know that Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Jewish seder meal, which required the use of wine. Yet some Protestant churches forbid drinking wine. Such a prohibition is not based on the Scriptures.


Luke 7:33-34 - God the Son drank wine and was accused of being a drunk. Are those Protestant churches that forbid the drinking of wine doing the same?

John 2:1-11 - Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine which was drunk at the wedding at Cana. Wine is a symbol of the life of the Church, in both the Eucharist and, here, the sanctification of the sacrament of marriage. Verse 10 also indicates that the people drank enough wine at the feast to the point that they might not have recognized good wine from bad wine. Yet Jesus creates for them more wine to drink.

1 Tim. 5:23 - Paul tells Timothy to drink not just water, but a little wine for the sake of his stomach and frequent ailments. If Paul under divine inspiration encourages the drinking of wine, why do some Protestant churches prohibit it?

Gen. 14:18 - Melchizedek offers a bread and wine sacrifice, and Jesus is the Priest in the same manner. Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17.

Gen. 27:25 - Isaac brought Jacob wine, and he drank, with God's favor.

Neh. 8:10 - Nehemiah commands the faithful to drink sweet wine to celebrate the Lord and His holy day.

Psalm 104:15 - the Psalmist writes that "wine gladdens the heart of a man." God gave us the fruit of the vine to enjoy.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - "drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do."

Isaiah 25:6 - God will provide a feast of rich foods and choice wines.

Amos 9:14 - God declares that His people shall plant their vineyards and drink their wine.

Zech. 10:7 - God says that when He saves His people, their hearts shall be glad as with wine.
The miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast at Cana suggests that we can have a second glass!