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Is Eating Pork Wrong?
- Thread starter gekko
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Claudia,
It’s been a LONG weekend. Forgive me if my brain is working slowly. If this were about Veggie Tails or Author, I’d catch on quick (I have a 3 year old son).
I just think that Eden is a bad argument for being a vegetarian (and I’m not implying that this is your argument, but I have friends who hold that they are vegetarians because God wants us to be). While they were vegetarians then, Eden was the initial state of man. God created man knowing that man would fall. His plan of salvation was there prior to the existence of man. I guess my point is the state of man in Eden is not the ultimate state of man in Gods plan.
Of course, I am an expert at my opinion and nothing else. As far as a proper diet for mankind, I can’t even get a proper diet for myself. I could be a vegetarian if I could eat fish, lobster and cheese (but it’d get expensive).
It’s been a LONG weekend. Forgive me if my brain is working slowly. If this were about Veggie Tails or Author, I’d catch on quick (I have a 3 year old son).
I just think that Eden is a bad argument for being a vegetarian (and I’m not implying that this is your argument, but I have friends who hold that they are vegetarians because God wants us to be). While they were vegetarians then, Eden was the initial state of man. God created man knowing that man would fall. His plan of salvation was there prior to the existence of man. I guess my point is the state of man in Eden is not the ultimate state of man in Gods plan.
Of course, I am an expert at my opinion and nothing else. As far as a proper diet for mankind, I can’t even get a proper diet for myself. I could be a vegetarian if I could eat fish, lobster and cheese (but it’d get expensive).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eric -
You are fabricating the idea that what someone does with Lev 19:19 forms a bible basis for ABOLISHING SCRIPTURE as it pleases you in a pick-and-choose model. But that has never been a Bible principle - ever!
That idea is not exegesis - it is not even Bible study at all. You are simply casting about you for excuses.
When "by contrast" the Bible says ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for instruction doctrine and correction.
Quote:Bobryan Said
Originally Posted by BobRyan
You can not justify turning a blind eye to Lev 11 "because God did not include poison plants".
That "too" is not a form of biblical argument - "at all".
You already lost that argument when you confessed that in Lev 11 when God said it was bad to eat decaying rotting flesh EVEN if it is of a CLEAN animal - that this in obviously a health issue.
Try again.
But "even worse" for your argument our Creator God says that Lev 11 defines that which "is edible" that which IS food!!
Impossible to turn a blind eye to the text of scripture as you seek to do in this case.
So that means we have to listen to God when He says rats, cats, dogs and bats -- and even human flesh - is not food for humans.
In Christ,
Bob
You are fabricating the idea that what someone does with Lev 19:19 forms a bible basis for ABOLISHING SCRIPTURE as it pleases you in a pick-and-choose model. But that has never been a Bible principle - ever!
That idea is not exegesis - it is not even Bible study at all. You are simply casting about you for excuses.
When "by contrast" the Bible says ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for instruction doctrine and correction.
Quote:Bobryan Said
Originally Posted by BobRyan
You can not justify turning a blind eye to Lev 11 "because God did not include poison plants".
That "too" is not a form of biblical argument - "at all".
You already lost that argument when you confessed that in Lev 11 when God said it was bad to eat decaying rotting flesh EVEN if it is of a CLEAN animal - that this in obviously a health issue.
Try again.
But "even worse" for your argument our Creator God says that Lev 11 defines that which "is edible" that which IS food!!
Impossible to turn a blind eye to the text of scripture as you seek to do in this case.
So that means we have to listen to God when He says rats, cats, dogs and bats -- and even human flesh - is not food for humans.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Since we keep talking about Lev 11 - might as well quote it...
Christ the Creator provides HIS statement on what is food for mankind and what is “not edible” what is “not to be eaten”
Leviticus 11
1 The LORD spoke again to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them,
2 ""Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, " These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth.
Since God is making the rules here – and God is the Creator of all flesh – mankind does well to listen to Christ the Creator in this regard.
God speaks of what we are not to eat and what we may eat of. (this is not a command that we MUST eat of the clean only that we are allowed to eat of it)
There is a very simply rule for land animals.
3 "Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, and chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat.
Again not that you “must eat them” but you are allowed to eat them.
That means our Creator is saying that rats, cats, dogs or bats – nor even human-flesh – none of it may be eaten. None of it is food for humans.
However the following list are unclean and “must not” be eaten.
4 "Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you.
5 "Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you;
6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you;
7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you.
8 "You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.[/b]
It is interesting that while some will admit under pressure that touching dead rat carcass is bad – yet they have a hard time agreeing with God that you may not eat of them.
The next rules is for animal life in the sea -
The rule for all freshwater and saltwater animal life is pretty simple.
9 " These you may eat, whatever is in the water: all that have fins and scales, those in the water, in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat.
Lev 11
10 " But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you,
11 and they shall be abhorrent to you; you may not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses you shall detest.
Notice that they are unclean, they may not be eaten they are “abhorrent” and they are “detestable”
Isaiah 66
15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh[/b], And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17 ""Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, will come to an end altogether,'' declares the LORD.
18 ""For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
Please note the same "inconvenient details" in Is 66 as we see in Lev 11
The Rule for fish forbidden as food for human by Christ our Creator.
Lev 11
12 "Whatever in the water does not have fins and scalesis abhorrent to you.
Christ the Creator provides HIS statement on what is food for mankind and what is “not edible” what is “not to be eaten”
Leviticus 11
1 The LORD spoke again to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them,
2 ""Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, " These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth.
Since God is making the rules here – and God is the Creator of all flesh – mankind does well to listen to Christ the Creator in this regard.
God speaks of what we are not to eat and what we may eat of. (this is not a command that we MUST eat of the clean only that we are allowed to eat of it)
There is a very simply rule for land animals.
3 "Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, and chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat.
Again not that you “must eat them” but you are allowed to eat them.
That means our Creator is saying that rats, cats, dogs or bats – nor even human-flesh – none of it may be eaten. None of it is food for humans.
However the following list are unclean and “must not” be eaten.
4 "Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you.
5 "Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you;
6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you;
7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you.
8 "You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.[/b]
It is interesting that while some will admit under pressure that touching dead rat carcass is bad – yet they have a hard time agreeing with God that you may not eat of them.
The next rules is for animal life in the sea -
The rule for all freshwater and saltwater animal life is pretty simple.
9 " These you may eat, whatever is in the water: all that have fins and scales, those in the water, in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat.
Lev 11
10 " But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you,
11 and they shall be abhorrent to you; you may not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses you shall detest.
Notice that they are unclean, they may not be eaten they are “abhorrent” and they are “detestable”
Isaiah 66
15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh[/b], And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17 ""Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, will come to an end altogether,'' declares the LORD.
18 ""For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
Please note the same "inconvenient details" in Is 66 as we see in Lev 11
The Rule for fish forbidden as food for human by Christ our Creator.
Lev 11
12 "Whatever in the water does not have fins and scalesis abhorrent to you.
You don't and cannot keep the whole law. To quote from it as a proof text for your own preconceived theology is not rightly dividing the word of truth. It is simply pulling verses out of context.BobRyan said:
Those who put themselves under the law (as you have done) are cursed by the law (Gal.3:10).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God appeals to His own Lordship over mankind – His role as Creator and His right to call mankind to be “Holy” for “God IS Holy” rather than God’s people choosing to be “detestable”
Lev 11
44 "For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and [b]be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean[/b] with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.
45 " For I am the LORD who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your God; thus [b]you shall be holy, for I am holy.[/b]'''
God calls upon His people to BE like God in walking in holiness. John says we are to WALK as Christ walked in 1John 2.
Paul says we Have “the mind of Christ” in 1Cor 2.
In summary God calls this section HIS view of what may be eaten – and what should not be eaten at all.
Lev 11
46 This [/quote]
Lev 11
44 "For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and [b]be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean[/b] with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.
45 " For I am the LORD who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your God; thus [b]you shall be holy, for I am holy.[/b]'''
God calls upon His people to BE like God in walking in holiness. John says we are to WALK as Christ walked in 1John 2.
Paul says we Have “the mind of Christ” in 1Cor 2.
In summary God calls this section HIS view of what may be eaten – and what should not be eaten at all.
Lev 11
46 This [/quote]
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Predestined
Member
Brother Bob said:
Yummmmmm......my favorite. :thumbs:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Matt 22 Christ quotes from Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and from Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
But DHK has a response for that --
In Eph 6:1-3 Paul quotes from the 5th commandment in Exodus 20
But DHK has a response for that --
In James 2 - James quotes from the Ten Commandments AND from Lev 19:18 and from Deut 6:5
But DHK has a good way to debunk James --
In Heb 8 and 10 we are told that the New Covenant writes the Law of God on the HEART instead of abolishing it. Paul confirms the same thing in Romans 3:31
"Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid - in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God!!"Rom 3:31
But DHK has a good way to debunk Paul on that point --
Bottom line is -- there are many ways to debunk God's Word and DHK you seem to have found one of the many here.
Christ said that whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments and so teaches others - will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Surely we can not turn a blind eye to ALL of scripture people?!! And for what cause?? "Eating rat, cat, dog bat sandwiches"????
Come on!!
in Christ,
Bob
But DHK has a response for that --
DHK said:
In Eph 6:1-3 Paul quotes from the 5th commandment in Exodus 20
But DHK has a response for that --
DHK said:
In James 2 - James quotes from the Ten Commandments AND from Lev 19:18 and from Deut 6:5
But DHK has a good way to debunk James --
DHK said:
In Heb 8 and 10 we are told that the New Covenant writes the Law of God on the HEART instead of abolishing it. Paul confirms the same thing in Romans 3:31
"Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid - in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God!!"Rom 3:31
But DHK has a good way to debunk Paul on that point --
DHK said:
Bottom line is -- there are many ways to debunk God's Word and DHK you seem to have found one of the many here.
Christ said that whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments and so teaches others - will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Surely we can not turn a blind eye to ALL of scripture people?!! And for what cause?? "Eating rat, cat, dog bat sandwiches"????
Come on!!
in Christ,
Bob
In each case the NT authors referred refer either to God's moral law or refer to references alluding to the death of Christ.BobRyan said:
You reference the cerremonial law which was done away with at the cross. You trample under feet the blood of Christ. You in effect say that the blood of Christ was not sufficient. Christ fulfilled the law which you claim you have to keep. You fail to distinguish between the law--civil, ceremonnial, and moral. You treat it all as one. You do not rightly divide the word of truth. You cannot even discern whether the law is referring to the Ten Commandments or the Torah, or something else. It doesn't always mean the same thing. One has to look at the context to tell what the word "law" means. Apparently you don't.
Again, you have put yourself under the curse of the law.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But you don't continue in ALL things which are written in the law, do you?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
So you will admit to the obvious divisions in the Law such as Moral vs Ceremonial, Civil vs Health?
I find that surprising.
Indeed I did reference ceremonial law in Lev 23 -- the annual sacrifices done away with by the "once for all sacrifice" of Christ as stated in Heb 10.
That did not abolish the Moral law of Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor" or the Moral law of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the Moral laws in Lev 18 against homsexuality etc.
By doing what???
Admitting that the LOVE your Nieghbor as yoursel law of Lev 19:18 still exists?
Are you saying that to uphold God's Word is to trample under foot the blood of Christ??
As that how far off the beaten path your argument has gone???
Do you claim that if we do not rebell against Lev 11 and start eating rats that we are trampling underfoot the blood of Christ?
Has your argument really fallen that far afield of scripture?
Come on! I don't believe what you are saying.
Have another run at it.
Choose an option that will be supported by scripture.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK - your argument about rebellion against the Law of God being the only way to honor the blood of Christ - deserves it's own topic --
I will start a thread.
having said that... you guys have tried every wrench in the tool box to get back to those rat, cat, dog bat sandwiches.
Eric tried the "pick-and-choose which parts you want to keep" model declaring the "bad bible parts" to be abolished no matter what Paul said in Rom 3:31 to the contrary.
You pick the idea that EVEN if you have a legitimate VALID part of God's Law - we can not keep His Word so why quote it -- certainly doing so would trample the blood of Christ.
I would say you guys are going at it both ways at this point.
Pretty facinating if you ask me.
In Christ,
Bob
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I find it surprising that you fail to answer this question. Actually it is not surprising at all.BobRyan said:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But you don't continue in ALL things which are written in the law, do you?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What if I could show you where one did NOT continue in ALL things which are written in the law, yet God said he was blameless? How would that effect your argument?
Personally, I'm just glad the pig survived Christmas dinner to continue the thread.:godisgood: :thumbs::applause:
Oh yeah, Bob, you are the first individual I've encountered to make a fourth 'division' in "The Mosaic Law" of Exodus thru Deuteronomy, of health. Over the years, I am aware of the so-called Moral Law; the Civil Law or family law; and the Ceremonial Law or religious law, as so-called legitimate 'divisions' of what the NT refers to as "The Law", where BTW, it does not divide it. (James 2: 8-13)
We've been over most of this before a few hundred thousand times (when all who have concerned themselves with it are considered
) so I am merely curious as to where this fourth division originates?
Ed
Oh yeah, Bob, you are the first individual I've encountered to make a fourth 'division' in "The Mosaic Law" of Exodus thru Deuteronomy, of health. Over the years, I am aware of the so-called Moral Law; the Civil Law or family law; and the Ceremonial Law or religious law, as so-called legitimate 'divisions' of what the NT refers to as "The Law", where BTW, it does not divide it. (James 2: 8-13)
We've been over most of this before a few hundred thousand times (when all who have concerned themselves with it are considered
) so I am merely curious as to where this fourth division originates?Ed
tragic_pizza
New Member
Oh, he'd better! If the Law is nevessary for salvation, then falling down in even one point will condemn him to Hell...DHK said:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
That is solved by Romans Chapter 8. We are in total debt now and always to the law. But when we DIE and are raised anew with Christ in us, He then lives out His life in us through His Spirit.
Galatians is the same as when Paul was saying the things he wanted to do he couldnt, etc and so forth... in Romans chapter 7. But then he comes to the conclusion that through Christ he can escape this vicious cycle then in Romans 8 it tells you how.
Here is the same as Romans 8, only in Galatians instead:
Galatians 5:
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
so dont stop there in Galatians 3:10
read your entire Bible... and realize in Galatians 5 it is telling you that if you are walking in the Spirit now that you are no longer "under the law" meaning under its curse of sin and die... why? Because now you are keeping it, through the Holy Spirit...
You guys really need to start reading... and thinking
Galatian 5 is the same essentially as Romans 8, and Galatian 3 is the same as Romans 7... read the entire story! You all keep stopping at what the Bible says you CANT DO... instead of going on and reading what you CAN DO through Jesus Christ and through His Spirit!
and by the way, read verse 13.... talking about not using your LIBERTY as an occasion to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The Law of Liberty doesnt mean liberty to sin LOL! so stop with the idea that well the Bible says in James that if we offend in one point we have broken the law... so this must mean its ok now to sin. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS~
You have been liberated from the curse of the law if you now walk in the Spirit instead of walking in the flesh as you used to do.
Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The "law of sin and death" is that vicious cycle Paul was in in Romans 7... you sin, you die... he who sins will die... that is the law of sin and death... thats the law Paul saw "working in his members".
What are we FREE FROM? is it the Law of God? NOOOOOOOOOO
Now go back and read verses 13 and 14, what are we called to do? Break the law? can anybody tell me?
Claudia
That is solved by Romans Chapter 8. We are in total debt now and always to the law. But when we DIE and are raised anew with Christ in us, He then lives out His life in us through His Spirit.
Galatians is the same as when Paul was saying the things he wanted to do he couldnt, etc and so forth... in Romans chapter 7. But then he comes to the conclusion that through Christ he can escape this vicious cycle then in Romans 8 it tells you how.
Here is the same as Romans 8, only in Galatians instead:
Galatians 5:
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
so dont stop there in Galatians 3:10
read your entire Bible... and realize in Galatians 5 it is telling you that if you are walking in the Spirit now that you are no longer "under the law" meaning under its curse of sin and die... why? Because now you are keeping it, through the Holy Spirit...
You guys really need to start reading... and thinking
Galatian 5 is the same essentially as Romans 8, and Galatian 3 is the same as Romans 7... read the entire story! You all keep stopping at what the Bible says you CANT DO... instead of going on and reading what you CAN DO through Jesus Christ and through His Spirit!
and by the way, read verse 13.... talking about not using your LIBERTY as an occasion to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The Law of Liberty doesnt mean liberty to sin LOL! so stop with the idea that well the Bible says in James that if we offend in one point we have broken the law... so this must mean its ok now to sin. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS~
You have been liberated from the curse of the law if you now walk in the Spirit instead of walking in the flesh as you used to do.
Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The "law of sin and death" is that vicious cycle Paul was in in Romans 7... you sin, you die... he who sins will die... that is the law of sin and death... thats the law Paul saw "working in his members".
What are we FREE FROM? is it the Law of God? NOOOOOOOOOO
Now go back and read verses 13 and 14, what are we called to do? Break the law? can anybody tell me?
Claudia
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Tom Butler
New Member
I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if I don't go back over the 276 replies to see if this duplicates a point already made.
Colossians 2:13. "And you, being dead in your sins and he uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses.
2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...."
Colossians 2:13. "And you, being dead in your sins and he uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses.
2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...."
You posted Gal.5 and didn't read it? How ironic! Or are you spiritually blind to its understanding? What does it say:Claudia_T said:
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Paul says: "If I preach circumcision (the law) why do I yet suffer persecution? Then the offence of the cross is ceased."
--What is he saying? Either the law has ceased or the gospel has ceased. You can't have both. Either you take the path of the law or the path of the gospel; you can't have both. Choose the path of the law or the path of the gospel; you can't have both. It is fair to say that the one who has chosen the path of the law is not saved. He was referring to the Judaizers who demanded that Gentile Christians keep the law as part of their salvation. They could not be saved unless they kept the law as well--circumcision and the law. You are like the Judaizers, whom Paul said followed a religion of works--a religion that could not save.
He then makes a very bold statement:
"I wish that they were even cut off that trouble you."
I wish that they were cut off that teach the type of doctrine that SDA's teach--to keep the law of the OT.
OK, I'll go along with the "reading...and thinking" bit, but would ask that this street be two-way. Is that fair enough?Claudia_T said:Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
That is solved by Romans Chapter 8. We are in total debt now and always to the law. But when we DIE and are raised anew with Christ in us, He then lives out His life in us through His Spirit.
Galatians is the same as when Paul was saying the things he wanted to do he couldnt, etc and so forth... in Romans chapter 7. But then he comes to the conclusion that through Christ he can escape this vicious cycle then in Romans 8 it tells you how.
Here is the same as Romans 8, only in Galatians instead:
Galatians 5:
3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7: Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8: This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10: I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11: And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12: I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
so dont stop there in Galatians 3:10
read your entire Bible... and realize in Galatians 5 it is telling you that if you are walking in the Spirit now that you are no longer "under the law" meaning under its curse of sin and die... why? Because now you are keeping it, through the Holy Spirit...
You guys really need to start reading... and thinking
Galatian 5 is the same essentially as Romans 8, and Galatian 3 is the same as Romans 7... read the entire story! You all keep stopping at what the Bible says you CANT DO... instead of going on and reading what you CAN DO through Jesus Christ and through His Spirit!
and by the way, read verse 13.... talking about not using your LIBERTY as an occasion to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The Law of Liberty doesnt mean liberty to sin LOL! so stop with the idea that well the Bible says in James that if we offend in one point we have broken the law... so this must mean its ok now to sin. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS~
You have been liberated from the curse of the law if you now walk in the Spirit instead of walking in the flesh as you used to do.
Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The "law of sin and death" is that vicious cycle Paul was in in Romans 7... you sin, you die... he who sins will die... that is the law of sin and death... thats the law Paul saw "working in his members".
What are we FREE FROM? is it the Law of God? NOOOOOOOOOO
Now go back and read verses 13 and 14, what are we called to do? Break the law? can anybody tell me?
Claudia
First, what exactly are we referring to by "the law"? This phrase occurs well over 100 times in the NT, as a stand alone phrase. As far as I can tell, when used without any 'qualifiers' (such as "the law of liberty", "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", or "the law of sin and death", to name three, it refers to only two things. Some ten or so times, this is 'shorthand' for the OT Scriptures, if I remember correctly. Interestingly, this 'shorthand' only occurs once from Acts on, if my memory is not totally failing me. But there is a usage of 100 times, I believe from Acts on, where each case this refers to the Mosaic codex. So I submit that in the Epistles, we can assume this. This is not to be confused with the single word "law", either, for that is another question. But we are talking about (or at least that is what I think we are talking about) the precepts of the Torah. I submit that failure to understand this Scriptural designation will result in only confusion about what Scripture actually teaches here. Now, on to the specifics -
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