Is Election Conditional?

[Greektim]

That may be however we don't know we can only suppose that His foreknowledge is why He chose us. It seems to me if this were so then God would be showing favoritism to those He chose. that is unless every one has been chosen when He died for our sins and the only reason they might not be saved is because of rejection. Choosing only some would also be respect of persons no matter the reason.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
I'm reminded that Christ also chose Judas. Yet his choosing did not insure his Salvation. I do not know where this idea came from it isn't in scripture. What is your reason for this idea?
If God did choose according to what He knows why would He choose? He already knows they are going to be saved. Just His knowing would have been enough.
It takes Salvation and the Holy Spirit inorder that we can be conformed. No where have I ever read that election or being chosen guarantees Salvation. It sure didn't for the Jews who rejected Christ and it still doesn't for the Jews that were blinded because of there rejection, even though the Jews are still elect.
MB

I can't take much of what you say seriously if you can't cite your thinking on Paul as part of the Sanhedrin.

 

[MB]

In true form now that you see you are losing your former argument, that no Gentile is elect, you must now change the whole entire discussion into something it wasn't and rewrite it.

I haven't lost any thing. Simply because you haven't proven that Gentiles are called elect in scripture. Oh you posted a few scriptures and boasted that they say gentiles are called elect all over scripture. Yet not one of them said any such thing. Just because you claim to know doesn't mean you do. Does it.

Any person can note that what you're doing is bearing false witness.

You are the one who can't prove your own doctrine's and you're calling me a false witness. You make false accusations and continue on in your ignorance acting as if you have won the argument. Why do you argue when you can't even defend your own statements. You use the wrong scriptures to back your self up and then lie that they do support your false claims. You claim that you are elect and you can't prove it.

Shameful behavior on your part. Now, to further rebut your error, as your fallacy begets more fallacy, all those saved, whether Jew or Gentile are elected for the same reason, to be transformed into the image of God's Son, Romans 8:26ff.

You do err once again.

BTW and for the record, you did in fact state the Scriptures do not say this. Here is your quote:

What I said was that scripture never says Gentiles are elect. And you have not proved that it does. What you posted as truth that scripture does say Gentiles are elect is this.

"From the apostle to the Gentiles note 2 Timothy2:8-10;

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

It's so obvious that Paul was speaking of the Jews a child could see it. Looks to me like you just refuted your self. LOL!

I thoroughly refuted the above with Scripture references that show in fact the Gentiles are called such in Scripture. This is what you responded to and to which I quoted in the first quote of yours in this reply above.

Your otherwise stated objective in that quote is a falsified statement and is frankly deceitful.

Only in your imagination. Your just upset because you know I've told you the real truth and you're afraid of it. LOL! You don't know how to refute it, because you certainly haven't refuted scripture. You just add to it what you want to believe. Then you apply to your self what is meant for the Jews.
MB

 

[Internet Theologian]

I haven't lost any thing. Simply because you haven't proven that Gentiles are called elect in scripture.

Oh, you've most certainly lost as I provided several passages showing the Gentiles being called elect/chosen interchangeably. You ought really to mature and learn to stop fibbing and learn to love and tell the truth. By the way age doesn't guarantee nor necessitate maturity, you're proving that. That you 'practice' fibbing is something to ponder, or something that should be alarming to your profession.

 

[MB]

Oh, you've most certainly lost as I provided several passages showing the Gentiles being called elect/chosen interchangeably. You ought really to mature and learn to stop fibbing and learn to love and tell the truth. By the way age doesn't guarantee nor necessitate maturity, you're proving that. That you 'practice' fibbing is something to ponder, or something that should be alarming to your profession.

Excuse me; You seem to think you can make scripture say what it clearly does not. You have lost because none of those scriptures you posted say it was addressed to Gentiles. You just make that unsubstantiated guess. I suppose you feel that is all theology is, just a guess. Yes they are addressed to churches yet where those churches are do not dictate they were all Gentiles in that church. You only claim they do. By the way Maturity is noted in how we act and you act very immature because you feel the need to accuse when you disagree Your youth is telling you are right and we both know you don't know what you are talking about.
MB

 

[Internet Theologian]

Excuse me;

There is no excuse for relentlessly bearing false witness as you do.

You seem to think you can make scripture say what it clearly does not. MB

The passages presented you clearly state the Gentiles as being elect. But then again you lied and said you were talking about something different altogether, and now you're back to your original argument, that the Gentiles are not called elect in Scripture, only Jews.

You're so full of fabrications and denial of plain truth that it's unbelievable. Now let's apply your false teaching to Romans 8:28ff that no Gentile is elect. You cannot claim this passage because it is only a promise to the elect of God, Romans 8:33 and therefore nothing it says pertains to you. But then again it was written to the elect Gentiles at Rome. Maybe only Gentiles from Rome are elect...so you're still out of luck LOL!!!!

 

[walkinspirit]

Is election conditional or unconditional?

Paul said in Ephesians 2:8 "for by grace we have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing, but the gift of God"

An Armenian will say that God foreknew our faith and that's why he chose us. This verse from Ephesians says that faith is a gift, so his election is not based on what I did but on the grace and mercy of God.

He has mercy on whom he wills to have mercy. Do I have a right to protest why he chooses some for eternal life and the rest not? The argument of Paul is that I don't. Why? Simple as that because salvation is by grace and a free gift of God.

On the other side of argument, you have Calvinists who interprete the doctrine of election as if we don't have a free choice to believe the Gosple or minimize human responsibility. To deny that is to deny John 3:16 that whosoever believes will be saved and many other Bible verses that clearly show man in responsible before God and believing even thought at its final analysis its a gift from God still the gosple of Jesus Christ calls us to repents and believe, we do our part and God will do his part.

Maybe I'm contradiction a little myself here but you see this is a deep subject and Arminianism or Calvinism don't give a satisfactory answer, its only the word of God that gives us a balanced truth of Predestination, election and human responsibility. The Bible completely affirms God's sovereignty over human affairs but at the same time
It teaches that we are responsible human bings before a Holy God. It does not excuse our sin but offers a way of salvation for all who repent and believe the gosple of Jesus Christ.

So I won't explain away something I don't understand like how God before the foundations of the world elected us in Christ Jesus for eternal salvation? God after all is a mystery that's can't be explained, some truths are so deep that we won't be able to completely understand on this side of heaven but we are called to believe them.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Hello again brother walkinspirit,

On the other side of argument, you have Calvinists who interprete the doctrine of election as if we don't have a free choice to believe the Gosple or minimize human responsibility.

All humans are responsible. For their sin. They are not responsible to save themselves, that is God's job and it is not by human decision, note John 1:13, James 1:18, Romans 9:16, 1 Peter 1:3. No man is free in his will, note John 8:31-32, as only the Son sets free which implies we are not free by any means prior to conversion which includes the will.

To deny that is to deny John 3:16 that whosoever believes will be saved and many other Bible verses that clearly show man in responsible before God and believing

Yes, whosoeover believes will be saved. God chose these to this prior to the foundation of the world.

even thought at its final analysis its a gift from God still the gosple of Jesus Christ calls us to repents and believe, we do our part and God will do his part.

No my friend, God does it all. Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[revmwc]

Is election conditional or unconditional?

Paul said in Ephesians 2:8 "for by grace we have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing, but the gift of God"

An Armenian will say that God foreknew our faith and that's why he chose us. This verse from Ephesians says that faith is a gift, so his election is not based on what I did but on the grace and mercy of God.

He has mercy on whom he wills to have mercy. Do I have a right to protest why he chooses some for eternal life and the rest not? The argument of Paul is that I don't. Why? Simple as that because salvation is by grace and a free gift of God.

On the other side of argument, you have Calvinists who interprete the doctrine of election as if we don't have a free choice to believe the Gosple or minimize human responsibility. To deny that is to deny John 3:16 that whosoever believes will be saved and many other Bible verses that clearly show man in responsible before God and believing even thought at its final analysis its a gift from God still the gosple of Jesus Christ calls us to repents and believe, we do our part and God will do his part.

Maybe I'm contradiction a little myself here but you see this is a deep subject and Arminianism or Calvinism don't give a satisfactory answer, its only the word of God that gives us a balanced truth of Predestination, election and human responsibility. The Bible completely affirms God's sovereignty over human affairs but at the same time
It teaches that we are responsible human bings before a Holy God. It does not excuse our sin but offers a way of salvation for all who repent and believe the gosple of Jesus Christ.

So I won't explain away something I don't understand like how God before the foundations of the world elected us in Christ Jesus for eternal salvation? God after all is a mystery that's can't be explained, some truths are so deep that we won't be able to completely understand on this side of heaven but we are called to believe them.

Faith is not the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 for by grace are ye saved by faith it what is the it? Salvation is the gift of God, salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is the gift given by Grace, God's unmerited favor is the gift not faith

 

[revmwc]

I believe that election was for the Jews only and only the Jews descending from Jacob. I have searched diligently for some thing in scripture that would prove Gentiles were elect also. However I have not as yet found even one scripture calling a Gentile elect. Or suggesting that a Gentile could be elect. It seems to me that some have claimed election for them selves Paul spoke of election but as far as I can tell only at synagogues where the Jews there were elect.
This not to say that Gentiles aren't chosen. Certainly true that we have been chosen. You may say what's the difference? there is a lot of difference. The election of the Jews was for a special people to God. They were not all saved. Those who rejected Christ were lost as was Judas. There is only one way to God and Heaven and that is by Jesus Christ. By no other can one be saved. If any one can show with scripture that Gentiles can be elected or called such. I would appreciate it if some one would be good enough to show me.
MB

So let me ask you something, How do you fit this into the realm of us as believers?

Colosians 3:
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
4 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

If the elect are only Jews then we as believers cannot Put any of these.
That is we cannot put on Bowels of Mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, we can't do these if we are not the elect of God.

We see that many of these are part of the fruit of the Spirit as seen in
Galatians 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So we cannot show these if we are not the elect for only the elect can show these things. Therefore all believers of this current age are the elect based upon their Faith and are elect according to God's knowing them beforehand.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I believe that election was for the Jews only and only the Jews descending from Jacob. I have searched diligently for some thing in scripture that would prove Gentiles were elect also. However I have not as yet found even one scripture calling a Gentile elect. Or suggesting that a Gentile could be elect. It seems to me that some have claimed election for them selves Paul spoke of election but as far as I can tell only at synagogues where the Jews there were elect.
This not to say that Gentiles aren't chosen. Certainly true that we have been chosen. You may say what's the difference? there is a lot of difference. The election of the Jews was for a special people to God. They were not all saved. Those who rejected Christ were lost as was Judas. There is only one way to God and Heaven and that is by Jesus Christ. By no other can one be saved. If any one can show with scripture that Gentiles can be elected or called such. I would appreciate it if some one would be good enough to show me.


MB

You've already been shown, there is just too much "I" (yourself) in the way.

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible completely affirms God's sovereignty over human affairs but at the same time It teaches that we are responsible human bings before a Holy God.

Agree! And rightly dividing between man's responsibility and the Sovereignty of God is at the core of the conflict between Free Will vs. Sovereign Grace. Both sides are frivolous with injecting eternal consequences into passages where it's not the intention.

 

[revmwc]

Faith is not the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 for by grace are ye saved by faith it what is the it? Salvation is the gift of God, salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is the gift given by Grace, God's unmerited favor is the gift not faith

Let's look at this close.

Calvin:
For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation.

Calvin emphasizes that Salvation is by Grace through faith and that it (salvation is not our own.) Salvation is the gift of God.

Henry sees it as both Faith and Salvation as the free gift:

The grace that saves them is the free undeserved goodness and favour of God and he saves them, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus, by means of which they come to partake of the great blessings of the gospel and both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God.

Then we see Eadie: Men are saved by grace- τῇ χάριτι; and that salvation which has its origin in grace is not won from God, nor is it wrung from Him; “His is the gift.” Look at salvation in its origin-it is “by grace.” Look at it in its reception-it is “through faith.” Look at it in its manner of conferment-it is a “gift.” For faith, though an indispensable instrument, does not merit salvation as a reward; and grace operating only through faith, does not suit itself to congruous worth, nor single it out as its sole recipient. Salvation, in its broadest sense, is God's gift.

Hodge states this:
The only point in the interpretation of these verses of any doubt, relates to the second clause. What is said to be the gift of God? Is it salvation, or faith? The words καὶ τοῦτο only serve to render more prominent the matter referred to. Compare Romans 13:11; 1 Corinthians 6:6; Philippians 1:28; Hebrews 11:12. They may relate to faith ( τὸ πιστεύειν) or to the salvation spoken of ( σεσωσμένους εἴναι). Beza, following the fathers, prefers the former reference; Calvin, with most of the modern commentators, the latter. The reasons in favor of the former interpretation are,

Calvin agrees with the latter that is to the salvation spoken of. Hodge states taht it is both faith and salvation spoken of here in speaking of the former he speaks of faith as the gift, so Hodge states that Calvin believed it to be salvation that was the gift not faith.

then Henrich Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the new testament states:
Rightly, therefore, have Calvin, Calovius, Baumgarten, Semler, Zachariae, Morus, and others, including Rückert, Matthies, Holzhausen, Harless, de Wette, Schenkel, Bleek, referred it to the salvation just designated as regards its specific mode. Paul very earnestly and emphatically enters into more detailed explanations as to what he had just said, τῇ γὰρ χάριτι κ. τ. λ., namely to the effect, that he briefly and forcibly places in the light of the respective contrasts, first, that objective element of the saving deliverance which has taken place ( τῇ χάριτι) by οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον, and then the subjective element ( διὰ τῆς πίστεως), by οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἵνα μ. τ. καυχ. His thought is: “Through grace you are in possession of salvation by means of faith, and that to the exclusion of your own causation and operative agency.” This latter he expresses with the vivacity and force of contrast thus: “and that ( καὶ τοῦτο, see on Romans 3:11) not from you, it is God’s gift; not from works, in order that no one may boast.” The asyndetic juxtaposition takes place with a “propria quadam vi, alacritate, gravitate,” Dissen, Exc. II. ad Pind. p. 273.

So the gift seen in Ephesians 2:8 is seen by many as faith and yet Calvin,Calovius, Baumgarten, Semler, Zachariae, Morus, and others, including Rückert, Matthies, Holzhausen, Harless, de Wette, Schenkel, Bleek see it as Salvation. I go with it as referring to Salvation being the gift. J. Vernon McGee sees that Salvation is the gift while Ironside and Gill see it as Faith. This has long been debated we are not the first and won't be the last to debate it.

 

[walkinspirit]

Hello again brother walkinspirit,



All humans are responsible. For their sin. They are not responsible to save themselves, that is God's job and it is not by human decision, note John 1:13, James 1:18, Romans 9:16, 1 Peter 1:3. No man is free in his will, note John 8:31-32, as only the Son sets free which implies we are not free by any means prior to conversion which includes the will.



Yes, whosoeover believes will be saved. God chose these to this prior to the foundation of the world.



No my friend, God does it all. Soli Deo Gloria!

Amen to that brother Soli Deo Gloria salvation if an unmerit gift of God given to us who were predestined according to the foreknowledge of God before the foundation of the world to be confirmed to the image of his Son. He chose us first and He loved us first and the Father drew us to Jesus.

A. W. Tozer is of the few men of God that I know who does justice to the twin truths of the Bible, God's sovereignity and human responsibility and I will quote him here:

"The whole matter of moral choice centers around Jesus Christ. Christ stated it plainly, "he that is not with me is against me" and "no man cometh unto the Father but by me." The gosple message embodies three distinct elements: an announcement, a command and a call. It announces the good news of redemption accomplished in mercy, it commands all men everywhere to repent and it calls all men to surrender to the terms of grace by believing on Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

We must all choose whether we will obey the gosple or turn away in unbelief and reject its authority. Our choice is our own but the consequences of the choice have been determined by the sovereign will of God and from this there is no appeal."

God in eternity past decreed in his sovereign will to give man the freedom to choose whenever the gosple is preached to the sinner. The choice is ours to believe or not believe Jesus as our Lord and Savior but the power to save it belongs only to God because salvation is all of grace and not by the works of the law. The glory in saving us belongs all to God.

God did not create us to be like robots, he gave us the choice between good and evil and Adam chose to rebel and sin against God and as the cosenquence of his fall we too have spiritually died because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

We were all spiritually dead in our transpases and sins, sold to sin and in bondage and darkness but the bible clear and loud keeps us responsible for our sins and not for ours personal sins but whenever the good news of redemption is preached to us we have the moral freedom and choice to believe it or reject it.

And by the way its only hyper Calvinism that denies human responsibility, If you so alittle bit of research you will know what I mean.

 

[revmwc]

Faith is not the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 for by grace are ye saved by faith it what is the it? Salvation is the gift of God, salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is the gift given by Grace, God's unmerited favor is the gift not faith

For those who dislike and disagree see my post #112. For some commentaries which agree salvation is the gift not faith, even Calvin backs it up and others say that not just me.