Is Election Conditional?

[JonC]

Unless I’ve missed anything (if so please correct me) insofar as the OP goes we have three views. Here is how I understand each position so far based on what has been put out here:

1. Election is at least individual (I think all would affirm corporate as well) unconditional as it is not based on anything in man: SG, Tyndale, JonC, Revmwc, and Reformed.

2. Election is unconditional but restricted to Israel (excluding Gentiles) and is not linked to those being saved (Israel as God's elect and chosen people is comprised of both saved and lost souls): MB, and perhaps Internet Theologian (although I think from other posts he may fall within or close to the first view).

3. Election is corporate (and I take it therefore unconditional as it is applicable to the Church as the Bride of Christ) and not individual. People who are saved are added to the "people of God." : RevMitch

What is interesting is that in regards to the OP, it seems that all confirm that God elects unconditionally but what is disagreed upon is the exact nature and identity of the elect. Also, that no one who has replied believes election to be conditional on man.

 

[tyndale1946]

Unless I’ve missed anything (if so please correct me) insofar as the OP goes we have three views. Here is how I understand each position so far based on what has been put out here:

1. Election is at least individual (I think all would affirm corporate as well) unconditional as it is not based on anything in man: SG, Tyndale, JonC, Revmwc, and Reformed.

2. Election is unconditional but restricted to Israel (excluding Gentiles) and is not linked to those being saved (Israel as God's elect and chosen people is comprised of both saved and lost souls): MB, and perhaps Internet Theologian (although I think from other posts he may fall within or close to the first view).

3. Election is corporate (and I take it therefore unconditional as it is applicable to the Church as the Bride of Christ) and not individual. People who are saved are added to the "people of God." : RevMitch

What is interesting is that in regards to the OP, it seems that all confirm that God elects unconditionally but what is disagreed upon is the exact nature and identity of the elect. Also, that no one who has replied believes election to be conditional on man.

Isn't it interesting that those who believe it is conditional have not addressed the post... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

Isn't it interesting that those who believe it is conditional have not addressed the post... Brother Glen

To be honest, I don't know if anything would come out that we have not heard before. But it is sometimes beneficial for people to rehash and reevaluate positions. People see things from different angles, and even within a similar view they hold different positions (as seen already in this thread). I guess no one from that position wanted to come out and play.

 

[MB]

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter stated here that our election is sure. We see who Peter was speaking too in verse 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
to receive by divine allotment, obtain,
Election is sure for all those that have obtained like precious faith through our savior Jesus Christ. Now the interlinear states "to those chancing on Faith" the Greek word is "lachousin" to obtain by lot. So all who by Faith have obtained Salvation by Faith are elect

Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture? I've had people tell me Paul did in Ephesians. However the Church in Ephesus started in a synagogue Be cause Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue when he first arrived in a town.. Gentiles are chosen by Christ but not for the same purpose as the elect Jews.
MB

 

[JonC]

Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture? I've had people tell me Paul did in Ephesians. However the Church in Ephesus started in a synagogue Be cause Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue when he first arrived in a town.. Gentiles are chosen by Christ but not for the same purpose as the elect Jews.
MB

Brother, you said that the elect were both the saved and unsaved of Israel. If so, are you then suggesting the Apostle is saying "make sure you are really your parents child?". Or have you misunderstood? It does seem that the elect are those who are saved to me.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Internet Theologian]

Isn't it interesting that those who believe it is conditional have not addressed the post... Brother Glen

It is conditionally based upon God's calling and election and according to nothing in or of man.

 

[MB]

The elect are God's chosen people. I believe that Scripture adequately presents Gentiles being grafted into this people, therefore Gentiles are elect. I understand the discussion between individual vs. corporate election but I am not very familiar with the view that Israel is the elect but the Church is not.

In terms of election, do you view this distinction today (that God has two people groups, one elect and the other non-elect (yet elect or chosen as well)?

I believe we are not one people until the Jews are in Christ. We do not become Jews. We are Christian. In fact they must become Christians in order that we can become one people in Christ.
It's true that we are grafted in to the root yet even scripture calls them natural branches as we are not natural branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The most amazing thing is, branches grafted in do not become like the natural branches but are in fact still wild. The same is true today in tree grafting. It is possible today to have one tree producing several types of fruit all from the same root..
MB

 

[tyndale1946]

It is conditionally based upon God's calling and election and according to nothing in or of man.

I agree but if I'm not mistaken according to the post by MB we have two separate elections... One for the Jew and one for the Gentile and the application of it is different... If I understand the poster right... Whereas he see exclusion of one group Gentiles... I see inclusion of both!... Neither Jew nor Gentile but all the elect children of God in Christ Jesus... To my understanding of scripture... Brother Glen

 

[MB]

Brother, you said that the elect were both the saved and unsaved of Israel. If so, are you then suggesting the Apostle is saying "make sure you are really your parents child?". Or have you misunderstood? It does seem that the elect are those who are saved to me.

Sent from my TARDIS

"I believe you are mistaken This is what I said;
Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture? I've had people tell me Paul did in Ephesians. However the Church in Ephesus started in a synagogue Be cause Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue when he first arrived in a town.. Gentiles are chosen by Christ but not for the same purpose as the elect Jews." are elected.

Once Jews are saved they become one with Christians in Christ. Most likely the Church in Ephesus, it's first member was a Jew. Since Ephesus was a trading center there may have been many Jews there that heard Paul's message and accepted what he said as truth. Not all Jews were blinded from the truth
MB

 

[tyndale1946]

I believe we are not one people until the Jews are in Christ. We do not become Jews. We are Christian. In fact they must become Christians in order that we can become one people in Christ.
It's true that we are grafted in to the root yet even scripture calls them natural branches as we are not natural branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The most amazing thing is, branches grafted in do not become like the natural branches but are in fact still wild. The same is true today in tree grafting. It is possible today to have one tree producing several types of fruit all from the same root..
MB

I am very familiar with Romans 11 but this is the comment I want to address... I believe we are not one people until the Jews are in Christ. We do not become Jews. We are Christian. In fact they must become Christians in order that we can become one people in Christ... Question what about the Jews before Christ?... Brother Glen

 

[MB]

I agree but if I'm not mistaken according to the post by MB we have two separate elections... One for the Jew and one for the Gentile and the application of it is different... If I understand the poster right... Whereas he see exclusion of one group Gentiles... I see inclusion of both!... Neither Jew nor Gentile but all the elect children of God in Christ Jesus... To my understanding of scripture... Brother Glen

Let me ask you this. The Jews were elect before Christ and the Gentiles were Chosen after Christ.
Not to mentioned If a Jew becomes a Christian must he first be chosen by Christ? Or is he already chosen?.
MB

 

[JonC]

"I believe you are mistaken This is what I said;
Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture? I've had people tell me Paul did in Ephesians. However the Church in Ephesus started in a synagogue Be cause Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue when he first arrived in a town.. Gentiles are chosen by Christ but not for the same purpose as the elect Jews." are elected.

Once Jews are saved they become one with Christians in Christ. Most likely the Church in Ephesus, it's first member was a Jew. Since Ephesus was a trading center there may have been many Jews there that heard Paul's message and accepted what he said as truth. Not all Jews were blinded from the truth
MB

Yes, I could very well have misunderstood . This is what I was referring to:

The election of the Jews was for a special people to God. They were not all saved. Those who rejected Christ were lost as was Judas.

My understanding is whatever Israel was to God as a chosen people, that is what Gentiles have been grafted into.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[MB]

I am very familiar with Romans 11 but this is the comment I want to address... I believe we are not one people until the Jews are in Christ. We do not become Jews. We are Christian. In fact they must become Christians in order that we can become one people in Christ... Question what about the Jews before Christ?... Brother Glen

Before Christ the Jews were not saved because of animal sacrifices, but by faith. Although they still had to wait in Sheol until the messiah came to them in sheol and preached the message of Christ to them. This is so because scripture says that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ. These old testament saints were not being punished but were placed in paradise until Christ had paid for there sins and they heard the gospel message so that they too might believe in Christ Jesus. The OT saints were the captives that Christ freed during the three days he was in the grave. I believe Dr. John Walvoord wrote about this in one of his books that I read a long time ago. Our pastor also spoke about this same thing a few years ago.
David wrote in the Psalms 16: 10-11
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
This passage above shows David in Hell or this waiting place or a seprate part of Hell called paradise where OT saints waited for Christ to show them the path of life thus setting them free.
MB

 

[MB]

Yes, I could very well have misunderstood . This is what I was referring to:
My understanding is whatever Israel was to God as a chosen people, that is what Gentiles have been grafted into.

Sent from my TARDIS

True and I agree yet we are still the wild branches not the natural. I have no desire to become a Jew but only to belong to Christ. It would be nice if more Jews would also be saved as we are. With out Christ they have no hope. However the more I see saved Jews in our church the happier it makes me. I take it as a sign that Christ will be coming soon.
MB

 

[Internet Theologian]

Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture?
MB

Yep, I sure can because it is all over the NT.

Note Titus 1:1;

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness

1 Thess. 1:4;

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

From the apostle to the Gentiles note 2 Timothy2:8-10;

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31;

or consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.

But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God

And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so as it is written "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord"

Note the Corinthians were called elect yet this was the milk of the Word, Paul had taught them only this thus far; 1 Cor. 3:2. Therefore even a babe in Christ should know and understand they are elect, whether Jew or Gentile. You should have known this as well.

I am certain you've 'claimed' Romans 8:28-39 for yourself, yet, it is for the elect of God who are both Jew and Gentile. You should have known this, it is readily apparent in the NT and is the milk of the Word.

 

[JonC]

True and I agree yet we are still the wild branches not the natural. I have no desire to become a Jew but only to belong to Christ. It would be nice if more Jews would also be saved as we are. With out Christ they have no hope. However the more I see saved Jews in our church the happier it makes me. I take it as a sign that Christ will be coming soon.
MB

We disagree here (I truly see one people of God - neither Jew or Gentile, but one people of God, elect (chosen) in Christ. That said, the more I see any person saved the happier it makes me. And I do believe that God is not done with Israel as a nation (but the Elect, God's People, are the children of the Promise...spiritual Israel....and this goes back to the covenant with Abraham (pre-Israel).

What I interpret as a fatal flaw in your theory here, brother, is the extent to which it ignores the covenant God made with Abraham. Here is when I see the elect materializing. But like I said, we simply disagree here. I am not trying to change your mind and I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. If you have any questions of mine then please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to provide a suitable answer.

 

[revmwc]

Peter was speaking to Jews of course they are elect. Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture? I've had people tell me Paul did in Ephesians. However the Church in Ephesus started in a synagogue Be cause Paul's custom was to go to the synagogue when he first arrived in a town.. Gentiles are chosen by Christ but not for the same purpose as the elect Jews.
MB

You believe the brethren only applies to the Jew here in Peters epistle? If so then the book as a whole would apply only to them. Yet Peter makes it clear he is speaking to all who believe that is all the church brethren

 

[kyredneck]

It is conditionally based upon God's calling and election and according to nothing in or of man.

???? From our perspective it's totally unconditional. That's WHY it's referred to as UNCONDITIONAL election; no merit or inherent goodness within us caused Him to choose us.

 

[kyredneck]

Can you show even one example of a Gentile specifically called elect in scripture?

If a Jew becomes a Christian must he first be chosen by Christ? Or is he already chosen?.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Gal 4

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

What part of that do you not understand?

To think that DNA has anything to do with one going to heaven is dispensational garbage, yea, heresy. Absolutely non-biblical:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

 

[SovereignGrace]

We do not become Jews.

MB

Brother, I respectfully disagree with you regarding this, and here's why.

--"A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.[Rom. 2:28,29]

Even most of the Jews of Apostle Paul's day fell outside of this. The Jews thought they had it 'faites dans l'ombre'(made in the shade), because of their lineage via Abraham's bloodline. However, most of the Jews were not the children of the promise[Gal. 4:28]. The promise was given to seed and not seeds, and this seed is Christ[Gal. 3:16]. The promise given to us via Christ is what makes us a Jew inwardly. All born again believers, whether they be Jew or Gentile are Jews inwardly.