Would you, Monsieur, please expound upon this chain of thought? Merci beaucoup!
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Is Election Conditional?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
Would you, Monsieur, please expound upon this chain of thought? Merci beaucoup!
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
It's because you're a Calvinist - you must be destroyed. Typical anti-cal behavior brother.
I gather (not speaking for him) that since he disagreed that election is both individual and corporate (he does not seem to view election as individual) that this means he disagrees with the conclusions of your posts.
I have a "dislike" also, based on my comment that I am not familiar with the view that limits the elect only to Israel to the exclusion of Gentiles and I believe that the Church is the Elect. But as of this post, even the one who has disagreed has not offered an explanation. How is the Church - Jew and Gentile without distinction - not the Elect?
Sent from my TARDIS
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May I draw your attention to 1 Peter 2?
1 Peter 2:4-6 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.6 For this is contained in Scripture:
1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Now to Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:3-14 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
We see in these passages that God is calling a people for Himself (the Church). This is a corporate call. But the church corporate is also made up of individual members. It would be illogical, as well as theologically inconsistent, for God to call one entity but not the other, when both are part of the same thing. You cannot separate the Church from its members or the members from the Church.
For someone to say, "election of the Church is corporate and unconditional, while individual election is conditional" would display an astounding level of ignorance as to the construction of the Church.
Oui, Monsieur, oui!! I now understand your point...I think...lullz.
Those added to the church are the elect, both us agree. So I am 95% sure I know your point, and agree.
Those added to the church are the elect, both us agree. So I am 95% sure I know your point, and agree.
The Church itself is the elect and those added to the church are "elected" or "chosen" as they are among the elect.
I cannot think of a passage where "the elect" are referred to as anything but the people of God corporately, but it is comprised of those who have been saved....individually. God adds to the Church daily those who are being saved. Or, to keep it brief....I agree with Reformed on the nature of election here.
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This makes no sense. Who is it that is saying God is calling one but not the other? What is not true is that if God is electing the church corporately He must also be electing the church individually? The reason this is not true is because the corporate election is solely based on the individual election of Christ. We are "in Christ" not in ourselves. Therefore, our election is based on and because of Christ.
Further, I will save the judgment on who is astoundingly ignorant for God.
Well we all know this one and I am surprised it hasn't been quoted no matter what election position you hold especially verses 15 through 18 ... Brother Glen
Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Those who post dislikes and dumbs never offer the reason, they do it because people disagree with their view but can't defend it based on what others post
Christ is building His church upon Faith, the type of faith Peter had! Upon Peters faith the church was built
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Often they do, at times they do not. But some posts are of such category that they deserve a rating.
Not so, many have refuted the other view readily in addition to offering a rating. A pretense of ignorance does not make what you accuse as truth. Many times my friend you have received a rating and a refutation and your post here is an attempt to soothe your own conscience otherwise.
I need no soothing of my coscience since I have stated nothing wrongOften they do, at times they do not. But some posts are of such category that they deserve a rating.
Not so, many have refuted the other view readily in addition to offering a rating. A pretense of ignorance does not make what you accuse as truth. Many times my friend you have received a rating and a refutation and your post here is an attempt to soothe your own conscience otherwise.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
So you are defending not yourself, but all others who have been rated by another, yet those who have rated their posts cannot defend their reason for doing so? Or, were you also referring to yourself, that those who have disliked your statements cannot defend their reason for doing so, or show your error? I believe it to be the latter.
I agree. To "rate" a post yet refuse to acknowledge or expound on that rating when asked hints of inability to defend one's views. But I'm going to ask what will probably be an unanswered request for clarification anyway. At least they can't say no one gave then opportunity to give an answer. Thumbsup
There seems to be at least two who hold that only Israel (excluding Gentiles) are the elect of God. MB stated that Gentiles are not the elect. (#10) I stated that I was not familiar with the view that the elect excluded Gentiles, and I did not know where this position puts the Church. (#15) which Internet Theologian dislikes.
My question then remains for MB and IT. If the elect is Israel and excludes Gentiles, then where does this position put the Church? I’m not looking to argue points (I do not object to either of you holding these views), I just want to understand your positions as this is not what I know as a common view. Are you saying that there are two separate peoples of God, "the elect" and the Church? And what of the early church which was Jewish (and of Gentiles being "grafted in")?
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You stated that if a brother disagreed with you not to just say they disagree with a button for that but to state why they disagree... The church of Christ was built upon Jesus Christ the solid rock... Not upon Peters Faith... Upon this Rock... Christ is that Rock!... That is how I see and understand that scripture... You need further elaboration?... Brother Glen
Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 3 that the foundation is Jesus Christ. He is the foundation of all, but Jesus stated to Peter upon this Rock, now what had Peter just declared by Faith, that Jesus was the savior, and upon that declaration Jesus made the statement upon this rock, that is the faith Peter had just declared, the church would be built
I'm not sure that it is correct that this "rock" upon which the Church is built is that "faith". Perhaps it more the Object of that cofession revealed by the Father rather than the confession itself. That is how I understand the passage anyway.
Sent from my TARDIS
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Jesus said to Petros (Peter Rock) and on this Petra (rock) we know that Peter had just declared Jesus as the savior and called Simon the Petros. But them he said upon the Petra, rock I shall build my ecclesia (church) out-called. What is the basis of our being the called out ones. That is basis of our salvation. We know Jesus is the Christ and the foundation but what makes us a Christian, our Faith. Upon that Faith we become the called out ones. What is the rock we have that brings to us salvation FAITH. It is that Faith which Christ church is built upon for without Faith it is impossible to please God, Hebrews 11:6. Faith has always been the reason for salvation, it is the key to All we accomplish for Christ. Upon Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ the Church is being built for it is made up of all who believe on the Lord Jesus, that is by Faith.
Therefore, the Rock is Jesus Christ not our faith. We have faith in the Rock. Jesus was also referred to as the Cornerstone. It was not our faith that was referred to as the cornerstone. You do not seem to understand what the subject of that exchange between Christ and Peter was. The subject was Jesus, not our faith.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
No, you're amiss in several ways. How we handle the Word of God, rightly, (2 Timothy 2:15) shows how much respect we have for it and that it is primary and foremost, not our presuppositions. You're ad lib here with the Scriptures, using eisegesis, imposing your thoughts upon the text.