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Is Election Salvation ?
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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Well, that's calling the kettle black. You ask questions, demand we answer a particular way, but won't answer the questions of others -- and then have the audacity to imply that I'm doing the same thing and wrong for doing so?!?
All I expect is for you to tell me that I'm not misrepresenting your position. Instead, you want to act like a car salesman and only let me ask questions that allow you to steer me towards your conclusion.
I would have answered your question days ago -- if you had just verified that I'm not putting words in your mouth or misrepresenting you.
....and if I'm understanding DHK correctly, there are those going to hell on account of 'New Calvinists'.
Incredible!
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I remember when a handshake between to honest men were binding. God is not man, He cannot lie therefore if he elected me in eternity past it is binding, it is a done deal, His council shall stand none can stay His hand, and considering Eph 2:5-6 this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him. Verse 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus, or in other words the day of there salvation.
PreachTony
Active Member
If unbelievers are going to Heaven as the norm, as you say, KYR, then why are we even working for the Lord? Why did He state in His word that we are saved by grace through faith, and that faith comes by hearing the preached word if, according to your view, neither faith nor the preached word are necessary for salvation? Why would God call men to preach the Word if it does nothing for salvation?
Paul wrote to the Romans telling them that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the preached word of God. He wrote to the Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith. He wrote to Timothy that all scripture was given by inspiration of God and was profitable. Was Paul wrong?
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No, you are wrong by indiscriminately with a broad brush applying eternal consequences to those terms 'saved' (delivered) and 'salvation' (deliverance).
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2071992#post2071992
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2071992#post2071992
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kyredneck said:
Oh boy...It's a Mystery. It's a MYSTERY.
We don't know who is really going to Heaven because some people, no, MOST people, according to kyredneck, don't even know they are among the elect until they die. And a lot of these people weren't even making a pretense of being believers.
Astonishing the things you read on a Christian board.
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1
Yes ITL, you're quite right, it was indeed a mystery concerning those His children outside the Old Covenant immersed in idolatry with 'Christ in them'. There were far more of His children outside the covenant than there were included in the covenant.
I'm not going to be surprised at all to find out that "more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife" is still so today.
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1
Yes ITL, you're quite right, it was indeed a mystery concerning those His children outside the Old Covenant immersed in idolatry with 'Christ in them'. There were far more of His children outside the covenant than there were included in the covenant.
I'm not going to be surprised at all to find out that "more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife" is still so today.
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The verse you are quoting concerns the mystery of the gospel and why the gospel is available to Gentiles after prophecies about it by Jewish prophets for centuries. Has nothing to do with a mystery of salvation among unbelievers. Just read verse 25 along with the verses you quoted:
25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
You can see this in 1 Peter 1:
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16
He didn't say other sheep 'I will have', He said 'other sheep I have'.
I'm guessing you hold to the hardline restrictivist view that all those outside the Old Covenant were damned for all eternity unless they were somehow able to ascertain from the Law (which they didn't have) that they needed to put their faith in a coming Messiah.
Incredible.
Even the Jews, who had the Law, were on the whole unable to ascertain that need from their scriptures.
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So, completely blow off my refutation of your interpretation of Colossians 1 and bring in another argument? What is this--the shotgun approach to debate?
And everybody needs to put their faith in the Messiah, the Christ, or they are unbelievers doomed to Hell.
savedbymercy
New Member
kyred
Thats right, they were secure and in His Possession [I have] even before they had a opportunity to hear His Voice in the Gospel and Believe !
The word have is echō and means:
II.to have i.e. own, possess
All for whom He died belong to Him by Blood Redemption,paid for with His Blood, before they believe, and He possessed them by Election before the foundation, given to Him by the Father Eph 1:4 !
Thats right, they were secure and in His Possession [I have] even before they had a opportunity to hear His Voice in the Gospel and Believe !
The word have is echō and means:
II.to have i.e. own, possess
All for whom He died belong to Him by Blood Redemption,paid for with His Blood, before they believe, and He possessed them by Election before the foundation, given to Him by the Father Eph 1:4 !
No, it's called comparing scripture with scripture.
Show me one scripture where the final judgment is about your faith, and I'll show you two where it's about your deeds.
I entered this thread after reading your wild assertion that there are unbelievers that die in their unbelief and they will make up the majority of people in Heaven. (you said that is "the norm".)
You have still to prove that. Let's stick to that topic.
Don't twist my words. I said I won't be surprised to find out that it is the norm.
Two things I'm deriving from your position:
1. It's impossible for His children to have an evil heart of unbelief.
2. Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief.
Two things I'm deriving from your position:
1. It's impossible for His children to have an evil heart of unbelief.
2. Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief.
PreachTony
Active Member
I would like to know your full scriptural basis for the idea that unbelievers will be in glory with God. And I've yet to see a response to my questions posed you in post #46.
OK, we're done. Not going to have someone deny what they've said, duck the issue, change the subject, and then impute beliefs to me that I don't hold to or have even hinted at. Good day.
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