Is EVEN The Faith To Believe A Gift From/Of God?

[DHK]

You do realise that we are part "fallen humanity" that god sees as now being found "In Adam?"

As such, we are born under the Curse, judgement of God, so that we will experience physical death and are born spiritually dead!

2 seperate 'deads"

1. Physical death
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
--When the spirit separated from the body, that is death. Death is separation.

2. Eternal death.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
--death and life are contrasted here: eternal death to eternal life. It is a parallel. As the gift of God is eternal life, so the wages of sin is eternal death. One is eternity with God; the other is eternity separated from God.
Death is separation.

3. Spiritual death.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--They were dead; now they are alive. They were not corpses or lifeless.
They were separated from God because of sin. Now, through the Holy Spirit, they are made alive. Death means separation. Sin separates.

4. The same holds true for a believer.
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--Sin will separate you from God. God will not hear your prayers. Sin will keep you out of fellowship with God until you repent and confess your sins to Him (1John 1:9)

5. The Second Death
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:13-14)
--It is the final sentence of all the unsaved. They, once and for all, will stand before Christ and face their final sentence. They will be forever separated from Christ in the Lake of Fire. Death is separation.

Death is always separation in the Bible. It is not equated as lifelessness.

 

[JesusFan]

1. Physical death
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
--When the spirit separated from the body, that is death. Death is separation.

2. Eternal death.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
--death and life are contrasted here: eternal death to eternal life. It is a parallel. As the gift of God is eternal life, so the wages of sin is eternal death. One is eternity with God; the other is eternity separated from God.
Death is separation.

3. Spiritual death.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--They were dead; now they are alive. They were not corpses or lifeless.
They were separated from God because of sin. Now, through the Holy Spirit, they are made alive. Death means separation. Sin separates.

4. The same holds true for a believer.
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--Sin will separate you from God. God will not hear your prayers. Sin will keep you out of fellowship with God until you repent and confess your sins to Him (1John 1:9)

5. The Second Death
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:13-14)
--It is the final sentence of all the unsaved. They, once and for all, will stand before Christ and face their final sentence. They will be forever separated from Christ in the Lake of Fire. Death is separation.

Death is always separation in the Bible. It is not equated as lifelessness.

Spiritual death is more than just seperation from God, it is the direct cause WHY we all are sepertaed from God!

Born sinners, at emnity against god by our very natures, we would NOT seek after god in and of ourselnes, for all have gone astry, no one seeks after God...

That is why we have SO many religions and spiritual things so called, as man realises that god exists, but suince we are unable to come to him in outr sinful states, we revert to making up own gods to worship, per Apostle paul Romas 1...


really, Apostlre in romans 1-3 pretty much shows just how fallen manking is now, and that ONLY bu the grace of God any of us can and will be saved!

 

[preacher4truth]

Spiritual death is more than just seperation from God, it is the direct cause WHY we all are sepertaed from God!

Born sinners, at emnity against god by our very natures, we would NOT seek after god in and of ourselnes, for all have gone astry, no one seeks after God...

That is why we have SO many religions and spiritual things so called, as man realises that god exists, but suince we are unable to come to him in outr sinful states, we revert to making up own gods to worship, per Apostle paul Romas 1...


really, Apostlre in romans 1-3 pretty much shows just how fallen manking is now, and that ONLY bu the grace of God any of us can and will be saved!

The definition of spirual death is NOT "separation." Period. That is only an implication.

The DEFINITION is "a corpse."

Some people will never get it right.

 

[DHK]

The definition of spirual death is NOT "separation." Period. That is only an implication.

The DEFINITION is "a corpse."

Some people will never get it right.

And that is why your brand of Calvinism is not Biblical. You have made up your own definition of words instead of staying with a consistent definition of how the Bible defines words. Defining words according to your convenience may be "convenient" for you, but it is not Biblical.

 

[Robert Snow]

How does a dead man even have the means to hear the message, much less believe in it?

This has been answered for you on more than on occasion. Are you unable to read and understand that death is separation, or do you just find it difficult to let go of Calvinism and read the bible?

 

[JesusFan]

This has been answered for you on more than on occasion. Are you unable to read and understand that death is separation, or do you just find it difficult to let go of Calvinism and read the bible?

i am quoting the Bible in these postings, same question back, why can;t non cals see JUST how fallen we are due to the sin of Adam, and how we MUST be enabled by God to be able to respond to the message of the Cross? As our natural self will NOT submit to God in order to get saved?

 

[mandym]

why can;t non cals see JUST how fallen we are due to the sin of Adam, and how we MUST be enabled by God to be able to respond to the message of the Cross? As our natural self will NOT submit to God in order to get saved?

I am a non cal and I fully believe all of that.

 

[DHK]

i am quoting the Bible in these postings, same question back, why can;t non cals see JUST how fallen we are due to the sin of Adam, and how we MUST be enabled by God to be able to respond to the message of the Cross? As our natural self will NOT submit to God in order to get saved?

You didn't answer Robert's question. You avoided it.

 

[preacher4truth]

And that is why your brand of Calvinism is not Biblical. You have made up your own definition of words instead of staying with a consistent definition of how the Bible defines words. Defining words according to your convenience may be "convenient" for you, but it is not Biblical.

Your brand of whatever is unscriptural and fallacious. It's been noted many times from many folks here on the BB.

Anyhow:

What is the definition of "nekros"?

Hint: It's not "separation."


:wavey:

 

[Robert Snow]

The definition of spirual death is NOT "separation." Period. That is only an implication.

The DEFINITION is "a corpse."

Some people will never get it right.

You, evidently are the one who doesn't get it right. You will not accept this because it goes shows another gaping hole in Calvinism.

 

[Winman]

In response to JF post #38;

The means by which the unregenerate are enabled to believe is the foolishness of preaching.

That the spiritually dead are able to hear the word of God is shown.

Lk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

You teach error when you say the unregenerate cannot hear. Jesus said they not only could hear, he says they DID hear. In fact, the devil has to come and take the word out of their heart, or they will believe and be saved.

How does the devil do that? Well, we know the devil cannot compel, all he can do is deceive. And this is what prevents men from being saved, they have believed a lie that prevents them from believeing the truth.

It is like this very post, I have shown you from God's word that the unregenerate DO hear. But you have been falsely taught they cannot hear. Believeing this unscriptural falsehood prevents you from believeing what the scriptures truly say.

God has sown his word, and men can hear. God has enabled all men to believe. It is the devil who prevents men from believeing the truth, not God.

If you believe that God enables only a few men to believe, then you must believe that God desires those who do not believe to perish, else he would enable them.

 

[convicted1]

1. Physical death
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
--When the spirit separated from the body, that is death. Death is separation.

2. Eternal death.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
--death and life are contrasted here: eternal death to eternal life. It is a parallel. As the gift of God is eternal life, so the wages of sin is eternal death. One is eternity with God; the other is eternity separated from God.
Death is separation.

3. Spiritual death.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
--They were dead; now they are alive. They were not corpses or lifeless.
They were separated from God because of sin. Now, through the Holy Spirit, they are made alive. Death means separation. Sin separates.

4. The same holds true for a believer.
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)
--Sin will separate you from God. God will not hear your prayers. Sin will keep you out of fellowship with God until you repent and confess your sins to Him (1John 1:9)

5. The Second Death
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:13-14)
--It is the final sentence of all the unsaved. They, once and for all, will stand before Christ and face their final sentence. They will be forever separated from Christ in the Lake of Fire. Death is separation.

Death is always separation in the Bible. It is not equated as lifelessness.

This post right here is a "gem"!! Very well stated!! :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

To Brother DHK:

Brother DHK,

After reading some of your posts in this thread, we are a lot closer than I first thought. I agree with you in regards to "inherent" faith, because it still has God as the Author of that faith.

I asked a Brother one time where did faith come from, and he used Adam as an example. He stated that when God breathed life into Adam, he put everything in him, even the ability to believe/have faith. I agreed with him, because it puts God as the Author of this faith. You may, or may not, agree with the way I see this, but we are closer in this regards, than I first thought.

 

[The Archangel]

You assume a definition that is not true.
Dead is not a corpse, lifeless.
Dead is separation from God. Everywhere in the Bible dead or death is defined as separation. Reconciliation is the goal. If you purge from your mind this concept of lifelessness you will have a better understanding of how a person who is separated from God can come to God by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

This is utterly incorrect.

The word νεκρός is, in fact, an adjective (as seen in Ephesians chapter 2) which does, in fact, mean dead.

It can be used literally or figuratively. In its figurative use in Ephesians 2:1, it is telling the Ephesian believers that they were once walking dead--like zombies.

The figurative use is seen in Matthew 28:4 when the guards at Jesus' tomb "became like dead men." Of course, this usage does not mean "separated."

So, almost all the Greek lexicons agree: Dead is dead. The use is plain; the definition is plain. The plain use can be applied figuratively (ie. becoming like dead men), but it cannot mean "separated" as a matter of definition.

To persist in saying that νεκρός does mean "separation" is to go against the clear meaning of the word and to "spiritualize" something into the word that isn't actually there.

Since you castigated others for not agreeing with your errant definition, I hope you will see that your understanding is hopelessly flawed because you yourself have invented a definition for a word which is far afield from the actual meaning.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

This is utterly incorrect.

The word νεκρός is, in fact, an adjective (as seen in Ephesians chapter 2) which does, in fact, mean dead.

It can be used literally or figuratively. In its figurative use in Ephesians 2:1, it is telling the Ephesian believers that they were once walking dead--like zombies.

The figurative use is seen in Matthew 28:4 when the guards at Jesus' tomb "became like dead men." Of course, this usage does not mean "separated."

So, almost all the Greek lexicons agree: Dead is dead. The use is plain; the definition is plain. The plain use can be applied figuratively (ie. becoming like dead men), but it cannot mean "separated" as a matter of definition.

To persist in saying that νεκρός does mean "separation" is to go against the clear meaning of the word and to "spiritualize" something into the word that isn't actually there.

Since you castigated others for not agreeing with your errant definition, I hope you will see that your understanding is hopelessly flawed because you yourself have invented a definition for a word which is far afield from the actual meaning.

The Archangel

The words do have meaning. I like DHK have made the statement about death being seperation.....by way of application,or result.

as in isa 59:22But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The actual words used as you have explained and also P4T has posted...do mean dead, or corpse.
Some cannot understand the concept of how the spiritually dead can still be "the active"dead...or the "religious dead". They try and use the application against the biblical teaching of fallen mans depraved state.
They believe dead sinners to have full ability in any and all spiritual things, despite scripture teaching to the contrary.

 

[preacher4truth]

The words do have meaning. I like DHK have made the statement about death being seperation.....by way of application,or result.

Correct, that is only the result of being spiritually dead. It is not, however, the definition thereof.

The Archangel holds to the correct view. We aren't talking implication, nor are we talking results, we are talking definition, and that is the difference here.

 

[Don]

We have a Marine colonel that works in a different division; if you don't work for him, he teases you by saying, "you're dead to me."

Suffice to say, he's not using the literal meaning of the word.

 

[The Archangel]

think those against DoG really fail to address just HOW severe the fall of Adam was towards us, what spiritual death entails, and just how "closed off" to God in our natural state we all really are!

JesusFan,

I think you are correct. I think it is a misunderstanding (a common one at that) that allows people (not just Arminians) to give humanity too much credit.

Many who are adamantly opposed to the DoG try to laud the human condition--able to exercise saving faith, discern, etc. All these might have been present in Adam before the Fall. However, after the Fall, even if these things are present they are still hopelessly and radically flawed because of the affectations of sin on humanity.

Not to mention, several anti-DoG people (and I am NOT speaking euphemistically of anyone here in this discussion) want to ignore the clear declaration of God against the human heart: Desiring only evil continually; desperately wicked and unknowable.

My continually-asked and continually-unanswered question is "How can a heart that desires only evil continually desire God?" The only reasonable answer is that God must perform a work in that heart (regeneration) which acts to draw that person to Himself.

But, yes, you are correct. There is a horrible misunderstanding of the state of mankind and that leads to great and, sometimes, grave errors in theology.

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

JesusFan,

I think you are correct. I think it is a misunderstanding (a common one at that) that allows people (not just Arminians) to give humanity too much credit.

Many who are adamantly opposed to the DoG try to laud the human condition--able to exercise saving faith, discern, etc. All these might have been present in Adam before the Fall. However, after the Fall, even if these things are present they are still hopelessly and radically flawed because of the affectations of sin on humanity.

Not to mention, several anti-DoG people (and I am NOT speaking euphemistically of anyone here in this discussion) want to ignore the clear declaration of God against the human heart: Desiring only evil continually; desperately wicked and unknowable.

My continually-asked and continually-unanswered question is "How can a heart that desires only evil continually desire God?" The only reasonable answer is that God must perform a work in that heart (regeneration) which acts to draw that person to Himself.

But, yes, you are correct. There is a horrible misunderstanding of the state of mankind and that leads to great and, sometimes, grave errors in theology.

The Archangel

You have a problem not only here but also in Eph.2:1. Death must be taken figuratively, even in that verse, to mean separation as it is consistently used throughout the Bible. It is the Fall that so aptly demonstrates this.

"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam did eat (in rebellion against God).
Adam died (spiritually), and 930 years later, physically.
Did Adam become a corpse? Was he lifeless--either physically or spiritually?
What followed?
After Adam and Eve made clothes of fig leaves, God came and searched them out. He called for them. "Adam where art thou?"

But you say that a dead man cannot answer God.
However Adam did answer God.
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (Genesis 3:10)
--A lifeless corpse (according to Calvinism) responding to God, saying, "I heard thy voice in the garden and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.

But Adam is dead. Adam had sinned. God said he was dead. God said that in the day he would eat he would die. And he did. So how is this possible?
From verse 10-19 the conversation carries on between this dead man and God. Calvinism says this is impossible, but here it is recorded in God's Word.

How is it possible? Have a right understanding of the word "death." Death is separation. Adam was separated from God. That is death. And God was doing everything in his power to reconcile Adam and Eve back to him. Finally he kills an animal:
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)
--Blood is shed.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
The sacrifice is made on their behalf that their sins might be forgiven, God himself sacrificing the first animal. Fellowship is restored. Back in verse 15 we have the first promise of a Messiah to come.
Death is separation.

 

[JesusFan]

You have a problem not only here but also in Eph.2:1. Death must be taken figuratively, even in that verse, to mean separation as it is consistently used throughout the Bible. It is the Fall that so aptly demonstrates this.

"

please realise that God spoke to Adam and pronounced curse/judgement upon

not JUST Adam, but ALL of us still to come , as we would beseen "IN Adam!"



In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam did eat (in rebellion against God).
Adam died (spiritually), and 930 years later, physically.
Did Adam become a corpse? Was he lifeless--either physically or spiritually?
What followed?
After Adam and Eve made clothes of fig leaves, God came and searched them out. He called for them. "Adam where art thou?"

But you say that a dead man cannot answer God.
However Adam did answer God.
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (Genesis 3:10)
--A lifeless corpse (according to Calvinism) responding to God, saying, "I heard thy voice in the garden and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.

But Adam is dead. Adam had sinned. God said he was dead. God said that in the day he would eat he would die. And he did. So how is this possible?
From verse 10-19 the conversation carries on between this dead man and God. Calvinism says this is impossible, but here it is recorded in God's Word.

How is it possible? Have a right understanding of the word "death." Death is separation. Adam was separated from God. That is death. And God was doing everything in his power to reconcile Adam and Eve back to him. Finally he kills an animal:
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)
--Blood is shed.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
The sacrifice is made on their behalf that their sins might be forgiven, God himself sacrificing the first animal. Fellowship is restored. Back in verse 15 we have the first promise of a Messiah to come.
Death is separation.

Every time when used in both the OT/NT scriptures though, the impled and the actual meaning of "death" is that we have in a state that would make us immune/unable to perceive the lord, dead to Him being our God in a salvation sense, that we are unable to realise/understand God in a saving fashion, ALL that any of us can do while in this state is to realise god is real, and that we than make Him up in our own religion./way and worship our created gods!

That is why SO many other religions in the world, as 'dead" mankind remake a god that follows our own way of salvation, that of good works!