Is everything that happens God's will?

[J.D.]

Oh, I see. You actually think that choosing to believe is a work? What an ignorant assumption!:laugh:

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Not only is believing a work, but salvific belief is a work of God, not man.

 

[Rippon]

From Calvin's Institutes

111 , 23 , 8 ; and 11 , 4, 3 as cited by Gordon Clark's book : " God and Evil : The Problem Solved " . ( pages 18,19 )

Here they recur to the distinction between will and permission , and insist that God permits the destruction of the impious , but does not will it . But what reason shall we assign for his permitting it , but because it is his will ? It is not probable , however , that man procured his own destruction by the mere permission , without any appointment , of God; as though God had not determined what he would choose to be the condition of the principal of his crewatures . I shall not hesitate therefore to confess plainly with Augustine , " that the will of God is the necessity of things , and that what he has willed will necessarily come to pass . "
God is very frequently said to blind and harden the reprobate , and to turn , incline and influence their hearts , as I have elsewhere more fully stated . But it affords no explication of the nature of this influence to resort to prescience or permission ... For the execution of his judgments , he , by means of Satan , the minister of his wrath , directs their counsels to what he pleases and excites thir wills and strengthens their efforts . Thus when Moses relates that Sihon the king would not grant a free passage to the people , because God had " hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate ," he immediately subjoins the end of God's design : " That he might deliver him into thy hand . " Since God willed his destruction , the obduration of his heart therefore was the divine preparation for his ruin .

 

[npetreley]

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Not only is believing a work, but salvific belief is a work of God, not man.

As they say in game talk, "owned".

Nothing like a little scripture to defeat man's philosophy.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Not only is believing a work, but salvific belief is a work of God, not man.

This is not a work in the sense that people do things to gain God's favor, you know, like going to church, giving to the poor, or other religious acts, and you know this.

But, since Jesus said to do this "work," it must be possible to do it, or He would be a liar, and I don't think Jesus is a liar, do you?

 

[mnw]

Is the answer along the lines of...

"But when it says work that is not what it means..."

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Is the answer along the lines of...

"But when it says work that is not what it means..."

What about the second part of the post?

 

[webdog]

Jesus used similar dialogue elsewhere in speaking. For example, when His followers told Him that His mother and brothers were waiting for Him, He responded "who are My mother and brothers? Those who do my Father's work are My mothers and brothers" (paraphrase). For those who think believing is a work, do you also believe all of those people around Him were His mother?

Mat 12:46 He was still speaking to the crowds when suddenly His mother and brothers were standing outside wanting to speak to Him.
Mat 12:47 Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But He replied to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother."

 

[npetreley]

But, since Jesus said to do this "work," it must be possible to do it, or He would be a liar, and I don't think Jesus is a liar, do you?

Jesus didn't say to do this work. In fact, He was correcting their error by telling them that it is the work of God, not their work.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Rippon:... "For the execution of his judgments , he , by means of Satan , the minister of his wrath , directs their counsels to what he pleases and excites thir wills and strengthens their efforts."

Rippon, this is a quote of Augustine, I believe. Since their is an obvious misspelling it makes me wonder about the spelling of 'counsels'. Would you please check again to make sure it is not 'councils'? That would be very helpful for something I am working on, and I don't have access to this reference.

Thanks!

:Fish:

 

[rsr]

"The second method, which comes much nearer to the exact meaning of the words, is when executing his judgments by Satan as the minister of his anger, God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases."

— Calvin's Institutes, Chapter 4 (1845 Beveridge translation)
​

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

My belief is that God, being Sovereign, created man in His image. He gave to Adam (and through Adam the whole human race) a choice. Obey God or disobey. Man (through Adam) chose to reject God and decided to live outside of God's influence. God, allowed this choice and has allowed mankind to do pretty much as he pleases. God has used man's freewill choices to work out his plan of redemption. In redemption, God paid the penalty and through the shed blood of Jesus Christ has made a way for mankind to come back into the proper relationship with Him. The horrors we see today, such as the raping of children is the result of man's choice which God allowed. God did not owe man this redemption, but in His grace He has offered it. Therefore, those who choose to accept this gift are awarded salvation which is only found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

As a five point Calvinist, I have to tell you that I agree with everything you just said. Where we might possibly disagree, however, is the cause of the choices of mankind to either accept or reject the Grace of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

This is not a work in the sense that people do things to gain God's favor, you know, like going to church, giving to the poor, or other religious acts, and you know this.

But, since Jesus said to do this "work," it must be possible to do it, or He would be a liar, and I don't think Jesus is a liar, do you?

Terry,

It is the work of God, not the work of man. Read the verse again.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Terry,

It is the work of God, not the work of man. Read the verse again.

Joseph Botwinick

I understand and agree with you. I was responding to what JD said in post number 21. He seemed to me to be saying that for a person to believe is to work.

 

[J.D.]

Let me clarify my post if it's not clear. Belief is a work. The verse makes this clear. Saving faith is the work of God, for it is God that works in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure. Man can not believe in that which he does not believe in. You can witness till you're blue in the face, but some people will not believe the gospel no matter what (except that some people will profess belief in a false, cheapened gospel - i.e. "just say this prayer"). The gospel is worse than meaningless to those that are perishing - it is foolishness. Unless God does the work of changing a person's heart and will, that person will never savingly believe the gospel.

 

[webdog]

Let me clarify my post if it's not clear. Belief is a work.

How funny. Then belief is a work regardless whether someone gives you the ability to complete the work or not, and salvation is earned just the same. If I need to cut down a tree, and you give me the chainsaw to do it, the act of cutting down the tree is no longer "work" because someone gave me the chainsaw first? How absurd. Salvation is a gift. Accepting a gift is never a work, regardless how you guys try to spin it. I would suggest that you never accept gifts again, because every act of acceptance is work. Just tell the person "thank you for paying me what you owed me, the payment due for working for this".

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Unless God does the work of changing a person's heart and will, that person will never savingly believe the gospel.

2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(NIV)

It's up to the individual whether or not to believe the Gospel. God gives us that choice.

 

[whatever]

How funny. Then belief is a work regardless whether someone gives you the ability to complete the work or not, and salvation is earned just the same. If I need to cut down a tree, and you give me the chainsaw to do it, the act of cutting down the tree is no longer "work" because someone gave me the chainsaw first? How absurd. Salvation is a gift. Accepting a gift is never a work, regardless how you guys try to spin it. I would suggest that you never accept gifts again, because every act of acceptance is work. Just tell the person "thank you for paying me what you owed me, the payment due for working for this".

Of course salvation is earned. The question is, if you are saved then who earned your salvation? I say God the Son earned your salvation. What do you say?

 

[webdog]

I'm not so sure about God "earning" our salvation. God owns salvation, so He does not need to earn it. This is God's grace. This would be like me writing myself a check if I needed cash. I'm paying myself, but I did not earn the payment.

 

[J.D.]

I'm not so sure about God "earning" our salvation. God owns salvation, so He does not need to earn it. This is God's grace. This would be like me writing myself a check if I needed cash. I'm paying myself, but I did not earn the payment.

There was a price to be paid for sin. Christ paid it.

It is proper to say that Christ earned our salvation because it was a work, an achievement, and attainment - he kept the law and spilled his blood - in our stead.

As Augustine put it: "Lord, require what you will; and grant what you require"

 

[webdog]

There was a price to be paid for sin. Christ paid it.

It is proper to say that Christ earned our salvation because it was a work, an achievement, and attainment - he kept the law and spilled his blood - in our stead.

As Augustine put it: "Lord, require what you will; and grant what you require"

Paying and buying for something is not necessarily the same as earning it.