Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation?

[trustitl]

I have a question for Brother Bob:

How "Christ like" or how much of a Christian do you have to be to keep your salvation?

Please answer.

 

[Andre]

I have.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is how we are justified. There is no other way. He left no other option open. Good works was not an option.

We have to let Paul tell us what his model of justification is and not impose our schemes on him. We have to account for everything Paul writes. And there is no doubt - in Romans 2, Paul tells us that people will be justified at the great judgement by their works. Even though people invent fanciful ways to make this material "go away", we still have to deal with it.

And, of course, Romans 5:1 - like Romans 2 (I am not the not the one trying to shuffle parts of Paul under the carpet) - must be taken as true as well.

Why does this seem like a contradiction to people? It is, I suggest, because they come to Paul already having decided that justification is a "one-time" event. Hence they read Romans 5:1 and think that Paul was "just kidding" in Romans 2 when he says people will be given eternal life based on the quality of their lives.

But we need not do this. We need to let Paul tell us what justification is. And for Paul, I suggest, justification can be summarized thus: we are indeed justified by works at the end. But these are not "our" works. They are the works that the Holy Spirit. And we can know in advance who will "pass" the Romans 2 judgement. Anyone who does nothing more than place real faith in Jesus Christ will be given the Spirit who will turn that person into the kind of person who will pass the Romans 2 judgement.

In other words, for Paul "justification" has a temporal structure. Remembering that for Paul to be "justified" is to be reckoned to in the true covenant people of God. In the future, these people will be marked out by their good works, while in the present they are marked out by nothing more than faith.

So, if we let Paul take the lead, we can take both Romans 2:6-16 seriously as well as Romans 5:1.

What is your explanation for Romans 2:6-16? Are zero persons justified by works even though the text talks about people being justified by their good works?

 

[Andre]

You can't argue a universal negative. You are asking the absolute illogical. Your argument is a logical fallacy.
Some examples:

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by believing in dinosaurs?

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by eating green cheese?

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by sticking our heads in the sand

My question is perfectly fine. Paul could indeed have said something like "We are not justified by the good works we do". If he had ever said that, my entire argument would fail.

But he never does say that. This does not prove that we are justfied by good works, but it takes the "Paul denies justification by good works" argument off the table.

 

[Andre]

Are you one of the really good ones that are going to be justified by your good works?

I will be justified by the works that are manifested by the Spirit in my life, as will everyone else who places their faith in Jesus. I have been careful to point out that the works which will justify us at the Romans 2 judgement are not the results of unaided moral self-effort, but are really the works of the Spirit acting through the person.

If so, how many good works did you have to do to make God overlook your sin?

My sins and your sins were dealt with on the Cross. But that very same event - the Cross - results in the giving of the Spirit. And it is the Spirit's job to figure out "how many good works" are required to pass the Romans 2 judgement. It is my "job" to place real faith in Jesus.

Your question seems to pre-suppose that atonement is a kind of one time legal transaction where all sins past and present are dealt with. And you may be surprised to read that I think that I essentially agree with this. But, I also think that if faith is "real" then we will indeed necessarily become the kind of person that will pass the Romans 2 judgement. I trust that you agree that if Fred claims to place faith in Jesus - and then continues in a life of sin - then there is real doubt whether that faith is true.

In other words, show me a person who does not exhibit good works in their lives and I will suggest that person was never "born again" in the first place.

I am not, repeat not, denying that real faith is fully sufficient for justification. But I cannot deny Romans 2. And Romans 2 tells us that justification at the end will be based on works. So what do I conclude? I conclude that the person who places real faith in Jesus will be led by the Spirit to be transformed into the kind of person who will pass the Romans 2 judgement.

Perhaps we are not as far apart as you think. Suppose that admission to Harvard is based on getting > 90 % on some test - that is the criteria for getting in. But suppose also that anyone who drinks some magical potion will be given the ability to pass the test with absolute assurance. This is analogous to what I am saying - faith is taking the potion and it results in the "works" (getting > 90 % on the test) that are the stated criteria for admission.

Watch what people do with Romans 2. You seem to suggest that Pual was saying something he would later retract when he says that people will be justified at the end by their works.

I just can't believe as competent a writer as Paul would employ such an odd device. Would you write a letter telling people in chapter 2 that some will be justified by good works and not mean it?

 

[DHK]

My question is perfectly fine. Paul could indeed have said something like "We are not justified by the good works we do". If he had ever said that, my entire argument would fail.

Paul tells us what we are justified BY;
He doesn't tell us what we are NOT justified by!

We ARE justified by FAITH!

We are not justified by wearing three piece suits.

We are not justified by posting on BB.

We are not justified by drinking coffee.

And we are not justified by doing good works!

We are justified by faith and faith alone.

Paul tells us what we are justified BY, not what we are NOT justified BY!!!!

 

[Andre]

And we are not justified by doing good works!

Paul states otherwise:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

I have no idea how you reconcile this with your position. Do you have Paul writing the above and intending us to understand that zero persons will meet the criteria in verses 7, 10, and 13?

 

[DHK]

I have no idea how you reconcile this with your position. Do you have Paul writing the above and intending us to understand that zero persons will meet the criteria in verses 7, 10, and 13?

You simply ignore what I have posted to you on previous posts.
You ignore context. It is that simple.

 

[joyce]

Is Faith needed for Salvation

I hope nobody minds my input here, I'm new to the board; but, not new to being a Christian. The only one who was here from before the foundation of the earth, was God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So; when the verse that is taken out of context in regards to "before the foundation" was referencing Christ, as He made everything, everything was created for Him and by Him, we weren't around there, so that verse is obviously talking about Christ. There are none righteous, no not one, Christ was the only one to keep the Law, no one else can. As a matter of fact, without Him we are nothing. We don't know what "good" is, we need the HS to guide us there. We are living in the dispensation of Grace where we place our faith on Him and the finished work, "It is finished", for our salvation. Now each saved sinner is not righteous as we are in these corruptible bodies, we will get new bodies, like His, when we are raptured; but, until then, we are decendents of Adam, Adam was formed by Him in His image; but, we are in Adam's image. Therefore, we are not perfect; but, corrupted. So; what do we do? We ask Him to have the HS work changes in us and it is the HS that works good works in us, not us ourselves. Drug addicts get this part right, they know they cannot stay clean and sober by themselves, they need Him to do it for them, they cannot do it on their own, therefore, we need the HS to change us or we will wind up falling and bruising our knees if left to our own devices. Salvation is a gift from Him above, the Lord's blood takes all sins away in the past, future and present, whereas, in the other dispensations, blood only covered the sin, a temporary thing, but, the Lord's blood takes it away permanently. That is why He said it is finished on the cross. Those that love the Lord will do what the Lord wants, which is study His Word and pray so we have communication. When we become a Child of God, which we do when we become saved, He is there to chastise us when we get out of fellowship with Him to bring us back into fellowship with Him, as any good father does with their children. The judgment seat of Christ is where the saved sinner faces rewards and absence of them based on what they did for Him. The works are judged, not the saved sinner. They either make it through the fire or they don't. If the work was wrought on any other motivation than doing it for Him, it won't last. To try and earn your salvation, is to slap at the free gift that He has given all who choose to accept it and to do that puts a person on the grounds of being judged by their own righteousness, as they have refused His. When God looks down on a saved sinner, He sees His Son, for His Son's blood has taken away our sins.
YSIC
Joyce

 

[Andre]

You simply ignore what I have posted to you on previous posts.
You ignore context. It is that simple.

I have done no such thing.

You have made the entirely unworkable suggestion that the material is about the Jews alone It is not! Paul clear that Paul addresses both Jew and Gentile.

So please tell us, what was Paul intending his readers to understand when he wrote this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Some questions:

1. Is this a real event that will take place?

2. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in verse 7?

3. In verse 7, is the number who get eternal life through persistence in doing good equal to zero?

4. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in verse 10?

5. In verse 10, is the number of persons who get glory, honour, and peace for doing good equal to zero?

6. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in vers 13b?

7. In verse 13b, is the number of persons declared righteous by obeying the law equal to zero?

8. If zero persons get eternal life by good works, why would Paul write material suggesting that people get eternal life that way?

9. On what basis would you argue that Paul intends us to understand that, despite what he has written above, in fact zero persons get eternal life through good works?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1. Is this a real event that will take place?

2. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in verse 7?

3. In verse 7, is the number who get eternal life through persistence in doing good equal to zero?

4. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in verse 10?

5. In verse 10, is the number of persons who get glory, honour, and peace for doing good equal to zero?

6. What do you think Paul intends us to understand by what he wrote in vers 13b?

7. In verse 13b, is the number of persons declared righteous by obeying the law equal to zero?

8. If zero persons get eternal life by good works, why would Paul write material suggesting that people get eternal life that way?

9. On what basis would you argue that Paul intends us to understand that, despite what he has written above, in fact zero persons get eternal life through good works?

I know these questions weren't directed to me but I'm bored and feel like answering questions.

1. Yes, or yep.
2. Do good and recieve a reward do evil and be punished.
3. No.
4. That God will reward Jew and gentile alike based on their deeds. We're in the same boat.
5. No.
6. There is a need to obey but I didn't read the context of verses afterwards.(following the law alone will not save us.)
7. by that verse alone I would say no but note answer above. Law alone cannot save unless you follow it entirely throughout your life with out ever deviating from it. According to Galatians the Laws purpose is to condemn us because of our inability to follow it.
8. Because they aren't relying on Law alone but by grace which assist us in following the law.
9. I would read Galatians to get a better idea of what Paul means with regards to the law.

do I get a whoopie doll?

 

[Andre]

do I get a whoopie doll?

What is a "whoopie doll"?:laugh:

Are you sure you intended to answer "no" to question 3? By saying "no", you are agreeing with me that Paul is saying that good deeds will be the basis for the granting of eternal life (at least for some).

In this thread, I am so used being "one against many" that I am suspicious that you really intend to represent yourself as believing that "persistence in doing good" results in eternal life.

Perhaps my question was not worded as tightly as it could have been....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is a "whoopie doll"?:laugh:

Are you sure you intended to answer "no" to question 3? By saying "no", you are agreeing with me that Paul is saying that good deeds will be the basis for the granting of eternal life (at least for some).

In this thread, I am so used being "one against many" that I am suspicious that you really intend to represent yourself as believing that "persistence in doing good" results in eternal life.

Perhaps my question was not worded as tightly as it could have been....

My belief is this "faith without works is dead". You can't believe and it not be demonstrated by your works. Works is a natural result of faith. Simple. Plain. But salvation can not be found in the Law. It only condemns and leads to death. I believe in the grace of God which leads to faith that the that has a natural result in works (which is the appropiate responce to Gods grace). The expression of that faith is evidence of salvation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation?

Mark 16:16 "He who believing-is-being-baptised is indeed saved".

That makes it three threads answered with one simple little Scripture!

 

[Andre]

My belief is this "faith without works is dead". You can't believe and it not be demonstrated by your works. Works is a natural result of faith. Simple. Plain. But salvation can not be found in the Law. It only condemns and leads to death. I believe in the grace of God which leads to faith that the that has a natural result in works (which is the appropiate responce to Gods grace). The expression of that faith is evidence of salvation.

I agree with you but would add that if we take Romans 2 as is it reads, the "test" that will determine if your faith is real is a "good works" based test.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I agree with you but would add that if we take Romans 2 as is it reads, the "test" that will determine if your faith is real is a "good works" based test.

GE
And if God is the Judge of that? The "test" that will determine if your faith is real is a "good works" based IN CHRIST test.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you but would add that if we take Romans 2 as is it reads, the "test" that will determine if your faith is real is a "good works" based test.

No it isn't. Good works have nothing to do with salvation. You fail to take that chapter in its context. It is written to unsaved Jews, as chapter one is written to the Gentiles, as chapter three is written to the unsaved: Jew and Gentile alike.

I suggest that you go and read a number of commentaries instead of sticking to your own blind opinions here. You get an F on Biblical hermeneutics. These first three chapters are written concerning fallen, unsaved man and the deeds that they do. Unsaved man cannot do good works no matter how hard he tries.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--This is one of the key verses here. Concerning the unsaved they cannot do good. You cannot be saved by doing good if you are incapable of doing good. God says that the unsaved man is incapable of doing good. Thus a man is justified by faith and faith alone. He can't be justified by good works because he is incapable of doing good works.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

No man can attain righteousness by good works. It comes only through the blood of Christ.

Here is the condition of the natural man:
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
--These are just some of the verses in the first chapter that describe the ungodly plight of the Gentile. They are horribly wicked as our nation is today.

Now Paul switches his attention to the Jew as is evidenced by verse one, and verse 17.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
--"O man" is the Jew. He is comparing himself to the Gentile (just described), and thinks that he is better than that.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
--It is quite evident who he is talking to.

Now to the verses that you have been butchering:

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
--Look back at the last verse of chapter one. The judgement of God is against them who do those things. Those are things that the unsaved do. And the unsaved Jew is included in that group of people. His heritage will not save him.

Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
--He will not escape the Great White Throne Judgement just because he is a Jew. He is acting like an unsaved person. He is an unsaved person. His trust is not in Jehovah. His trust is in his heritage. His heritage (being a Jew) will not save him. Saved people don't act that way.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
--The wonderful truth here is that God's goodness is all around us. And it is that goodness that leads us to repentance. The Jews need to repent. In their natural state they also need salvation. God is good and longsuffering. He desires repentance in all. But from the Jews who had every opportunity to be saved, Jehovah got nothing but them who despised the riches of his goodness and forbearance. It was a slap in the face of God, who had done so many miraculous works in their long history with them.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
--Now they were doing nothing except "treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath." The more they despised God's goodness the worse it would be for them at the Great White Throne judgment. For the Lord Himself says about that day: "And everyman shall be judged according to their works." But even at that they shall all be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and suffer eternal torment. It will be the righteous judgment of God. There is nothing good here.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
--Compare this verse to:
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--This is the context here. This is the judgement being spoken of. It is not speaking of believers. It is the final judgement. There is nothing good here.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--The "gift of God" is eternal life. In contrast we have the life of the saved. Their lives are contrasted by the characteristics of "Patient continuance in well doing, and seeking for glory and honor and immortality. This is what the born again believer does naturally. It is not a condition. It is characteristic of the believer.

Romans 2:8-9 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
--In contrast this is what is characteristic of the unbeleiver: they obey not the truth but obey unrighteousness. And consequently there will be Tribulation and anguish upon them, whether they be Jew or Gentile. It will happen to all that are unsaved.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
--Again, this not conditional but characteristic of the believer. A believer, justified by faith alone, will automatically show in his life glory. honor, and peace.
This verse is simply emphatic of what was already said in verse seven.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
--God doesn't show partiality. To the unsaved there is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.
For the believer there is eternal life--a life of being with Christ in heaven above.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have a question for Brother Bob:

How "Christ like" or how much of a Christian do you have to be to keep your salvation?

Please answer.

If you have been born again, you are Christlike. You certainly are not a whoremonger, murder, adulterer, living after the flesh.

Christlike, is to be "led" by the Spirit of God. and the Spirit of God does not lead a Christian to be conformed with the devil, or to live after the flesh.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not believe in losing your salvation, we are no longer our own keeper but kept by the power of God.

This "Christlike"!

1Jo 4:15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Cr 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Rev 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I agree with you but would add that if we take Romans 2 as is it reads, the "test" that will determine if your faith is real is a "good works" based test.

What test in Romans 2:2? There is no test in 2:2. Salvation comes from God faith and works are an expression of that salvation. Paul is talking about not following the Law in hopes that it will save you. The law can only save you if you have never sinned. Since we're born into sin that is quite impossible. For understanding of Pauls view of Law and salvation read Galatians. The christian is encouraged to follow the law under Jesus' economy of it: Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neihbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these (two points). But that is a reflection of a work that God has already performed for your salvation.

I have a question: When does salvation occur? At the point of God's grace? (calvinist - when the elect has been chosen by God and they come to faith through irresistable grace) or when they have expressed faith? If it is the latter then is faith a work in of itself?

 

[DHK]

I have a question: When does salvation occur? At the point of God's grace? (calvinist - when the elect has been chosen by God and they come to faith through irresistable grace) or when they have expressed faith? If it is the latter then is faith a work in of itself?

Faith does not fit the definition of a "work." It is not something that one "does" but rather it is a belief or trust.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of works. It is the gift of God.
Therefore faith it is impossible for faith to be a work, by this definition.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Faith does not fit the definition of a "work." It is not something that one "does" but rather it is a belief or trust.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of works. It is the gift of God.
Therefore faith it is impossible for faith to be a work, by this definition.

Faith is an exercise of the will therefore it can be considered a work. Do you believe or is belief given to you?