Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation?

[DHK]

Faith is an exercise of the will therefore it can be considered a work. Do you believe or is belief given to you?

Faith or belief is simple confidence--confidence in the word of another. It is not a gift of God, not until one is already saved, and then one is speaking of an entirely different subject.
I have confidence (faith) that when I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, that my car will start. It usually does. I have put my faith in the word of the Ford motor company who said that it will. If it doesn't it is not because my faith has wavered; it is because man has failed in making a perfect vehicle. He is fallible and the things that he makes are defective.

But I have a perfect God, who gave us a perfect revelation of Himself, who I have perfect confidence in that what he says he will do. I need not to be concerned that He will ever fail me.

The confidence that I put in my God is not a work. How could it be. It defies the very definition of a work. When my children were very little and automatically put their confidence and trust in me rather than a stranger, how is that a work?? Their faith is in me, for they know me. How is that a work. Faith or confidence is not a work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: Faith is an exercise of the will therefore it can be considered a work.

HP: Now there is someone thinking.:thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Faith or belief is simple confidence--confidence in the word of another. It is not a gift of God, not until one is already saved, and then one is speaking of an entirely different subject.
I have confidence (faith) that when I put my key into the ignition of my car and turn it, that my car will start. It usually does. I have put my faith in the word of the Ford motor company who said that it will. If it doesn't it is not because my faith has wavered; it is because man has failed in making a perfect vehicle. He is fallible and the things that he makes are defective.

But I have a perfect God, who gave us a perfect revelation of Himself, who I have perfect confidence in that what he says he will do. I need not to be concerned that He will ever fail me.

The confidence that I put in my God is not a work. How could it be. It defies the very definition of a work. When my children were very little and automatically put their confidence and trust in me rather than a stranger, how is that a work?? Their faith is in me, for they know me. How is that a work. Faith or confidence is not a work.

"Confidence that I put in my God is not a work". ("put" is not a state of being word but action) What is your definition of work? An exercise of will is a work. Your children chose to trust you it wasn't inherent. There are children who do not trust their parents. You put your confidence in God. Do you save yourself by nature of you deciding to believe? Or has God already provided salvation and you accepted?

 

[webdog]

Faith is an exercise of the will therefore it can be considered a work. Do you believe or is belief given to you?

Work demands payment (wages). While faith is effort, a condition God has given in order to receive eternal life, it is not work deserving of payment.

 

[DHK]

"Confidence that I put in my God is not a work". ("put" is not a state of being word but action) What is your definition of work? An exercise of will is a work. Your children chose to trust you it wasn't inherent. There are children who do not trust their parents. You put your confidence in God. Do you save yourself by nature of you deciding to believe? Or has God already provided salvation and you accepted?

The decision to put my key into my ignition trusting that it will start, was just that--a decision, one that is based on faith.
Turning the key and starting the car was a work. It was based on faith.
Faith is knowledge based. It is not blind.
I made a decision to put my faith in Christ.
Faith has an object. The object of my faith is Christ.
Faith is based on knowledge--in this case the gospel, especially that Jesus arose from the dead.
My decision to trust Christ or put my faith in Him is a faith-based decision. How can such a decision be considered a work.

When you mother tells you to take out the garbage. You either decide to take out the garbage or decide to disobey.
The decision is not a work. The taking of the garbage is the work.
There is an obvious difference.
The decision to trust Christ is not a work; it is a faith-based decision.
It is hardly a work.

Jesus said (almost sarcastically) to those people who wanted to do something to get to heaven, who wanted to do good works to get to heaven, this:

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It was a sarcastic statement, and a play on words. There was no work that they could do. Only God could do the work. Only God could provide salvation. The only thing that they could do was to believe. Believing wasn't a work at all. What Christ says is in sarcasm to their question.
For salvation, as he has told them before, is a free gift which cannot be earned with good works.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Work demands payment (wages). While faith is effort, a condition God has given in order to receive eternal life, it is not work deserving of payment.

We come down to definition again. Effort is work. Employment demands wages.

Main Entry: 1work
Pronunciation: \ˈwərk\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English werk, work, from Old English werc, weorc; akin to Old High German werc work, Greek ergon, Avestan varəzem activity
Date: before 12th century
1: activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a: sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b: the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c: a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity
2 a: energy expended by natural phenomena b: the result of such energy <sand dunes are the work of sea and wind> c: the transference of energy that is produced by the motion of the point of application of a force and is measured by multiplying the force and the displacement of its point of application in the line of action
3 a: something that results from a particular manner or method of working, operating, or devising <careful police work> <clever camera work> b: something that results from the use or fashioning of a particular material <porcelain work>

 

[DHK]

We come down to definition again. Effort is work. Employment demands wages.

Your definition is found to be contrary to Scripture:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Brother Bob]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

This is speaking of the works of the Law and not "faith".

The "works" thing has been pushed so far, that if you help an old woman across the street, it is called works for salvation. It was just a good deed.

You can not get to "Grace" except through "faith". Without it, no salvation.



BBob,

 

[webdog]

We come down to definition again. Effort is work. Employment demands wages.

Not all effort is work. Sometimes it take effort to love our enemies, and we receive no payment for that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The decision to put my key into my ignition trusting that it will start, was just that--a decision, one that is based on faith.
Turning the key and starting the car was a work. It was based on faith.
Faith is knowledge based. It is not blind.
I made a decision to put my faith in Christ.
Faith has an object. The object of my faith is Christ.
Faith is based on knowledge--in this case the gospel, especially that Jesus arose from the dead.
My decision to trust Christ or put my faith in Him is a faith-based decision. How can such a decision be considered a work.

When you mother tells you to take out the garbage. You either decide to take out the garbage or decide to disobey.
The decision is not a work. The taking of the garbage is the work.
There is an obvious difference.
The decision to trust Christ is not a work; it is a faith-based decision.
It is hardly a work.

Jesus said (almost sarcastically) to those people who wanted to do something to get to heaven, who wanted to do good works to get to heaven, this:

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It was a sarcastic statement, and a play on words. There was no work that they could do. Only God could do the work. Only God could provide salvation. The only thing that they could do was to believe. Believing wasn't a work at all. What Christ says is in sarcasm to their question.
For salvation, as he has told them before, is a free gift which cannot be earned with good works.

Yet James says

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone

 

[Andre]

No it isn't. Good works have nothing to do with salvation.

Let Paul speak:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Its actually fascinating to see how people simply ignore the plain teaching here.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--This is one of the key verses here. Concerning the unsaved they cannot do good. You cannot be saved by doing good if you are incapable of doing good. God says that the unsaved man is incapable of doing good. Thus a man is justified by faith and faith alone. He can't be justified by good works because he is incapable of doing good works.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

No man can attain righteousness by good works. It comes only through the blood of Christ.

You fail to realize the timeline here. Paul is describing the state of mankind before the covenant has been renewed in Christ. Notice verse 21:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

The material in first part of Romans 3 describes the state of man before covenant renewal. Paul is giving a history in chapters 1 to 4.

On what grounds, precisely, do you reject the teaching of Romans 2:6-16? You say that the chapter was directed to the Jews. That may be true but it describes a judgement at which all mankind will be present - Jew and Gentile - and no less than three times does Paul say people will be justified by their works.

 

[DHK]

Yet James says

No need to bring the Book of James into the discussion. The works that James speaks of are consequent to salvation, not a prerequisite thereof. The believer that is truly saved, works will definitely follow his life. The Book of James is a book of practical Christian living. It is unlike the Book of Romans which is a theological treatise on salvation. They both have very different purposes.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No need to bring the Book of James into the discussion. The works that James speaks of are consequent to salvation, not a prerequisite thereof. The believer that is truly saved, works will definitely follow his life. The Book of James is a book of practical Christian living. It is unlike the Book of Romans which is a theological treatise on salvation. They both have very different purposes.

I was just following you out. Yes works are a result of faith. Salvation is entirely a work of God. My question is do you cause yourself to believe or did the Holy Spirit prepare you (so to speak) to accept the word. If being in a sinful nature, are you then capable of believing with out the intervention of the Holy Spirit? If you are not then how much of being able to believe is reliant on God? Which brings me back to my previous question. Do you Believe or have you been given belief. Or do you have faith or have you been given faith?

 

[DHK]

You fail to realize the timeline here. Paul is describing the state of mankind before the covenant has been renewed in Christ. Notice verse 21:

There is no timeline. How can you have a timeline in a theological treatise on soteriology? You can't. There is no timeline on "the plan of salvation," the new birth," etc.
I don't believe in covenant theology. So all your responses about "this is a different covenant" are falling on deaf ears. God made covenants with Israel, not with Gentiles.

 

[Andre]

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
--Compare this verse to:
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--This is the context here. This is the judgement being spoken of. It is not speaking of believers.

OK, you have just declared that the Romans 2 judgement is a judgement at which no believers are present.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--The "gift of God" is eternal life. In contrast we have the life of the saved. Their lives are contrasted by the characteristics of "Patient continuance in well doing, and seeking for glory and honor and immortality. This is what the born again believer does naturally. It is not a condition. It is characteristic of the believer.

You now seem to think that Paul is describing a characteristic of the believer. But to say this, you must acknowledge that the believer is at this judgement.

Please clarify. Is the believer at the Romans 2 judgement or not. If not, precisely who is Paul talking about in verse 7?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your definition is found to be contrary to Scripture:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Thats not a definition.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not all effort is work. Sometimes it take effort to love our enemies, and we receive no payment for that.

I would call that a work. Effort to love enemies. Work.

 

[Andre]

I don't believe in covenant theology. So all your responses about "this is a different covenant" are falling on deaf ears. God made covenants with Israel, not with Gentiles.

This is simply a case that cannot stand. The text of Romans is so full of material that contradicts this that I hardly know where to begin:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code

Who are the Jews? They are the people with whom God made a covenant. And is a "true Jew" determined by being ethnically Jewish? Paul says no, and by implication is saying here that Gentiles are part of the covenant. Look at what Paul just finished saying:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

Paul is asserting that Gentiles can be part of the covenant. But there's lots more.....

 

[Andre]

It has been stated that "God made covenants with Israel, not with Gentiles".

Consider this from Romans 4:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c]
The promise is clearly covenantal since in verse 17, Paul directly quotes from Genesis 17 which is clearly covenantal:

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [b] ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations.

Now going back to the text from Romans, Paul is asserting that Abraham's family - those who are recipients of the covenantal promises - are given not only to those who are of law, but to others as well.

Who are these others? They are obviously Gentiles - the embrace of the covenant includes Gentiles (and always did from the very beginning).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is simply a case that cannot stand. The text of Romans is so full of material that contradicts this that I hardly know where to begin:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code

Who are the Jews? They are the people with whom God made a covenant. And is a "true Jew" determined by being ethnically Jewish? Paul says no, and by implication is saying here that Gentiles are part of the covenant. Look at what Paul just finished saying:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

Paul is asserting that Gentiles can be part of the covenant. But there's lots more.....

Christians are the inhertors. Christians are the fulfillment not the Jews. I don't believe in a parenthetical period called the "church age". God's salvation was always Jesus. Remember the banquet? Those who were invited did not come so they went and gathered all those who would come. Remember Jacob crossed his arms layed the blessing to the younger child of Joseph over the elder to reflect what Jesus did for Christians.