Is faith a work?

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by BBNewton:

Adam Clark must be a Jehova's Witness.


Now I am not trying to use a "guilt by association" argument here. But it must be asked, if "were disposed" is in fact "the best rendering" then why is it the only Bible version I could find which used such a rendering is a version produced by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose version is known for deliberately mistranslating passages to fit their pre-conceived theology?"

I think you missed the real crux of Clarke's argument. Very little of the argument had to do with the interpretation this one word. He listed several options that are all supported by Greek resources. I really don't think that matters.

Personally, I'm fine with the use of the word "appointed." God appointed the Gentiles to be included in the covenant from the very beginning. That is what Paul, Peter and the other gospel writers believed. But the people were debating them saying, "No not dirty unclean Gentiles, God doesn't want them!"

"Yes he does! And you know how we know God wants them? Look at the way they recieve His message. They believe it! That is proof that God wants them! In fact all nations God has appointed to eternal life will show it by their fruit of faith.

 

[Frogman]

The real reason some believe and some don't is because of the choice man makes.

Ok, now what reason supports that choice?

Regeneration/Faith/Repentance/Beleif
Human Will/Faith/Repentance/Belief
Repentance/Belief/Regeneration
Belief/Repentance/Faith
Faith/Repentance/Regeneration

For every choice there has to be a motivator, if you make that motivator the human will or any of the above equations brought forth by the human will there is no foundation.

Bring that motivator from the power of God in Regeneration you receive Faith, you Repent, you continue in Belief.

Faith and Repentance must be very closely related because in order to Repent the person must have Faith the reason for Repenting is valid.

The order I believe is significant as to Regeneration occurs first, then the others come as they will, but all experiencing the Regneration will continue on in belief. Nothing will change this.

Bro. Dallas


I choose Regeneration/Faith

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Frogman;
In my case the motivator is the gospel. By the time I was saved, I had heard so much of it I hated it. At the same time while I hated it, I thought about it,and my life, and how things were in my life. How the gospel effected my life and those around me that were saved already and there witness to me as Christians. How there lives were and the comparason of all our lives and the peoples lives I admired most. What kind of life the Christians had in comparason to mine. I knew what I needed but at first I didn't want to admit it. The choice I made was to accept Jesus as who he said He was. The foundation is the gospel and the witness of all the witnesses and there testimony that it took to make me realize I needed Him. The gospel that was preached to me and the evidence shown in the lives of those who had already surrendered.

I choose Faith/Repentance/Regeneration. This is the way it is taught in the Bible. Belief is a requirement for regeneration.
If we have to be regenerated before faith then answer this question. Why did Christ teach in parables?, was it because He just liked to, or was there really a reason. The reason is in the Bible and although I don't know you personally but I know enough about you to know that you know the answer.

If the spiritualy dead could not hear and understand then why did Christ tell the disciples to preach the gospel to every living creature? This would be comanding us to do something that was entirely useless to God or us. Why didn't God just give us the ability to know who was elect and who wasn't? Salvation is simple, evanglism is simple. There is no need of God to make it complicated, because then no one would get it.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Frogman]

Ok, let's go through this a little at a time.

What motivated you to hate the gospel?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Gina L;
I read what you reffered us to. The intresting thing was that the writer of this failed to show what a dead spirit is like. A dead spirit is conscience and is not like someone who is physcialy dead. They have all there senses if not then when a man dies the second death and is sent to hell he wouldn't know anything about the punishment that he receives for his sins. In other words hell for that person would not be anything to him, because he wouldn't know anything about it. He wouldn't be aware thus hell has no fury.

This IMO is where Augustine mistakenly thought that because, a man being spiritually dead must be like the physcial dead. Knowing nothing. Clearly a misunderstanding.
The spiritually dead are able to respond to the gift of life. Thank God for the awareness of the spiritually dead.
The writer also didn't show where the Bible gives the same explanation for his views of spiritual death.
He made this statement;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> God does not come to a spiritually dead sinner and say, "If you have faith, then I will give you this gift." A spiritually dead person can not muster up the faith needed to obtain eternal life. It is a gift of God's sovereignty and unconditionally bestowed.

Where does the Bible say that someone who is spiritually dead cannot respond in faith?Or isn't aware. Where does it say that God's gift is unconditional? I don't believe it does. I believe His gift is very conditional. Most of what this man wrote is not scriptural.He rely's on a man's reasoning which is most always lacking something.

He had it right until he came to the moment where he said that the spiritually dead man could not reach out in faith. He just couldn't mustar up the faith. I'm real glad this isn't so.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Have you ever thought about what men were like before the fall?
I was talking to a guy last year who stated that he believed that when man was created he was alive in 3 parts, in the image of God, but when he fell man was born now spiritually dead. The spirit is only awakened when God awakens it, and has no ability at until that point in time. Dead as a doornail until God moves to give life, and then the man is "whole", awake and in the image of God, body soul and spirit.
Of course, he worded it much more eloquently and easy to understand. Maybe I can hunt him down and get him over here.
Gina

 

[Frogman]

I have heard that before Gina. The completeness of the three parts will occur at the resurrection of believers. At this time, body, soul and spirit will all be united in one.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:

For every choice there has to be a motivator, if you make that motivator the human will or any of the above equations brought forth by the human will there is no foundation.

Bring that motivator from the power of God in Regeneration you receive Faith, you Repent, you continue in Belief.

The power of God unto salvation is the gospel, not regeneration. Human will must be a part of the equation Dallas because the fact is God uses motivators for man's will.

He uses the persuasive words of the gospel
He uses prayer
He uses signs and wonders
He uses envy or jealousy

All of these provoke man's will. Why do you think Jesus told his followers to 'consider the cost' of being his disciple if they were born unable to have a choice? Why would God call lost men together to reason with him if indeed they are not able to do so?

Man does have the capasity to reason and consider and choose. What else sets us a part from the rocks that God has as our back up if we refuse to cry out? We are made in his image and after eating the from the tree we became like God in the fact that we now know Good and Evil; therefore with that knowledge there is a choice to be made. To deny that is to deny the clear meaning of the scripture.

 

[Frogman]

Agreed Skandelon. But all man will reason and choose is evil to a greater or lesser degree. This is why the scripture says all our righteousness is as dirty rags.

Jesus said except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisee...

The will of man is used, God does use the gospel, prayer and all you listed, all this is the power of God and is used to make his people willing in the day of his power. (Ps. 110.3)

None of this is worked internally in man until it is worked externally from the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Holiness).

This and only this is why the surety of the believer is believed.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Ok, let's go through this a little at a time.

What motivated you to hate the gospel?

Bro. Dallas

A very necessary and key point for our discussion, imho. Please address it, whether we agree or not, I would like to know what made you hate the gospel and then what made you embrace the gospel.

There is either a force or power within yourself and all other believers that non-believers have yet to find and tap, or there is an external force that operates to humble our human will that reacts to the gospel as you did and causes us to be willing to submit in humble repentance to the mercy of the Son of God.

Please enlarge upon this point.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

The power of God unto salvation is the gospel, not regeneration. Human will must be a part of the equation Dallas because the fact is God uses motivators for man's will.

This is 100% accurate to the scriptures.

Does man arrive at belief under his own power? YES! Man hears the message and either believes sufficient to pursue faith or rejects the message. This initial belief is equivalent to a seed that is planted in the ground that germinates and begins to grow toward the surface of the ground. When the plant breaks through the soil it is now in a state of young faith as it grows and strengthens in the SONLIGHT it becomes a strong plant that produces fruit.

Does man arrive at FAITH (sustained belief) under his own power? NO! Man believes unto salvation which is through FAITH, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God". Initial belief is man's decision. It is then that the Holy Spirit takes the role of influencing man into saving faith.

The Holy spirit is not what breaks the seed open, that is a natural, God implanted, function of the seed. You see, God put into the seed the essential nutrients that cause initial growth upon germination (initial belief). Being in the right soil which includes the presence of moisture and temperature, the seed is in the place where it can germinate.

There is no root system at this point in the life cycle, so the plant is reliant on what God put into the seed, and all that is necessary for initial growth is moisture and temperature. Those are the ingredients to belief and they equate to hearing the word, which is God's call to believe. But to sustain the growth, there must be nutrients in the ground for the new embryonic plant to reach out and take in through an immature but fully functioning root system.

The young plant will take in whatever nutrients are available, and some of those nutrients in the ground are harmful (false doctrine) to the plant. Some nutrients are too heavily concentrated (dogma), and some essential nutrients are non existent (now that you believe you are on your own).

The good farmer knows how to prepare the soil into which he places the seed, but with the number of variables possible, not all the plants will produce the desired crop. God knows this and put us in an imperfect environment so that there would be variations among us so that we would become the "body of Christ" with its many parts. And He watches over the human environment in HIS grace.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Agreed Skandelon. But all man will reason and choose is evil to a greater or lesser degree. This is why the scripture says all our righteousness is as dirty rags.

Man on is OWN cannot do good or choose good. Without Godly influences we would be without hope and all our decisions would be as dirty rags. But we are not on our OWN. God sent His Son, the Holy Spirit, the apostles and the scripture to influence and guide us into truth. You are using proof texts that teach us what we would be without God's intervention but they cannot be applied because God has intervened. Do you understand?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bro Dallas;

I would like to know what made you hate the gospel and then what made you embrace the gospel.

My Answer for the first question is simply Satan doing the things that he does. Satan still prowls around even though he knows he's lost the battle over me.

The second was the witness of the lives of the Christians around me in comparison to mine. The witness of Gods word that I had already had taught to me.

Why did Christ teach in parables?
When even the disciples didn't understand what he was teaching. They had to ask Christ to explain what they meant.

Weren't the disciples regenerated yet? They were already following Him.

I already know that it was partially to fulfill prophecy. It's just that all prophecy has a purpose other than the prophecy it self.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Skandelon]

I can already anticipate what you might say.

You might say, "But God did intervene with the teachings of the prophets and the law etc."

But, remember the law is not the power of God unto salvation, the gospel is. And the sending of the Holy Spirit at penetacost is the "Spirit of the Bride" who says to all, "COME."

The law was a tutor for people to reveal their need for a savior. The gospel of grace through faith was the solution to the world's problem. Your doctrine makes that solution obsolete because you claim that man is just as unable to have faith as he is to obey the law and the scripture never teaches us that. It is merely assumed by Calvinists.

Please reconsider your doctrinal system. I am confident it is not correct.

Blessings.

 

[Skandelon]

I can already anticipate what you might say.

You might say, "But God did intervene with the teachings of the prophets and the law etc."

But, remember the law is not the power of God unto salvation, the gospel is. And the sending of the Holy Spirit at penetacost is the "Spirit of the Bride" who says to all, "COME."

The law was a tutor for people to reveal their need for a savior. The gospel of grace through faith was the solution to the world's problem. Your doctrine makes that solution obsolete because you claim that man is just as unable to have faith as he is to obey the law and the scripture never teaches us that. It is merely assumed by Calvinists.

Please reconsider your doctrinal system. I am confident it is not correct.

Blessings.

 

[Frogman]

As long as you are able to anticipate my responses, I will return when you actually want to hear my responses. Until then enjoy debating your belief against your anticipation of my position.

 

[Skandelon]

Sorry. My brain gets ahead my manners every once in a while. Excuse me, I'll allow you to reply.

Hey, Paul used the same form of diatribe in his letters so I have a good precedent.

 

[Yelsew2]

Has the question been answered?

Is faith a work?

 

[Frogman]

Hey, Paul used the same form of diatribe in his letters so I have a good precedent.

yes, but in your view was paul trying to win souls or feeding the sheep?

Bro. Dallas

Faith is not a work, it is a gift of God.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Bro Dallas;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I would like to know what made you hate the gospel and then what made you embrace the gospel.

My Answer for the first question is simply Satan doing the things that he does. Satan still prowls around even though he knows he's lost the battle over me.

The second was the witness of the lives of the Christians around me in comparison to mine. The witness of Gods word that I had already had taught to me.

Why did Christ teach in parables?
When even the disciples didn't understand what he was teaching. They had to ask Christ to explain what they meant.

Weren't the disciples regenerated yet? They were already following Him.

I already know that it was partially to fulfill prophecy. It's just that all prophecy has a purpose other than the prophecy it self.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Bro. Mike wrote:
My Answer for the first question is simply Satan doing the things that he does. Satan still prowls around even though he knows he's lost the battle over me.

Frogman: Satan is condemned already. Was there nothing within yourself that caused you to hate the gospel? Yes, he continues to prowl around. In that prowling would he have won you if he had been able to cause one of the christians whose lives you witnessed to fall into sin? What you are doing here is first displacing your nature (and mine) onto satan. It is true he possesses the essence of sin and evil, but he has been judged for his condition and his condemnation is sealed. Now, you are repeating Adam and Eve's technique when confronted by the visitation of the Holy Spirit. (Adam said the woman you gave me; Eve said the serpent...). Do you see that by displacing your response to the gospel to a force outside yourself you have an appearance of denying responsibility for your hatred of the gospel. So, in this is the same question, who is responsible for the rejection of the gospel? the individual or satan?

Brother Mike said:
The second was the witness of the lives of the Christians around me in comparison to mine. The witness of Gods word that I had already had taught to me.

In this answer you did reflect upon your own person, but where did you put the reason for your receiving the gospel as truth, for repenting and believing unto righteousness? again you put this in something outside yourself. When you compared yourself to the lives of Christians around you, you saw the lack of that in your own life, you saw the need of that, you saw you did not possess that ability. What else did you see? there has to have been something else seen in order for you to so quickly displace that which caused you to embrace the gospel from an internal view to an external view. In this case this was the manifested lives of the Christians you knew, what life are they manifesting? Where is the source of this life? Is this life the quickening they possess in Christ? if not, why not? What aspect of their lives did you desire to possess which caused you to recognize your need and their possession of this aspect.

You also answered:
The witness of Gods word that I had already had taught to me.
What have you said here that places the decision to accept the gospel as truth by the choice of your will? What you did here was to move from a position of an attitude of hating the gospel to a position of embracing and loving the gospel. What moved you? You begin by declaring your will or choice in accordance with your will, but while inspecting this question you provide only outside sources of power, outside sources of life and an outside source of witness of the word. The word of God is eternal, the witness is true, these are Christ. A witness is a martyr. Your expression here specifically states this witness is taught to you an action that can only occur from outside you. I realize that in teaching the learner is responsible for learning. But This is the beginning of your equation that you possessed the witness of the Spirit. That you hated the gospel message provides testimony to your rebellion by your will, the notification of the peace and joy of others and their outward uprightness of life testified to you of your lack of this life within yourself. Again looking at the word and witness of God you see your will cannot move you from death unto life and it cannot be denied this is the position you began in because by your own admission you stated you hated the gospel, now you have reason for the hope because of the witness of the Holy Spirit. By the Spirit you know you did not make this positional change by your will; by the spirit of your flesh (your intellectual knowledge) you will not embrace this truth, but by the power of the Spirit of holiness which is found to dwell in you by reason of your hope and interest in Christ you have received these as an eternal truth. AS you discuss them you express them.

Amen Brother and God Bless

You also said:
I already know that it was partially to fulfill prophecy. It's just that all prophecy has a purpose other than the prophecy it self.

I am sorry brother, I don't understand this enough to respond. I am slow mostly and perhaps this statement just went right by me though filled with wonderful truth. If you will expand upon it for me that I may understand it properly as you intended me to do.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
I can already anticipate what you might say.

You might say, "But God did intervene with the teachings of the prophets and the law etc."

But, remember the law is not the power of God unto salvation, the gospel is. And the sending of the Holy Spirit at penetacost is the "Spirit of the Bride" who says to all, "COME."

The law was a tutor for people to reveal their need for a savior. The gospel of grace through faith was the solution to the world's problem. Your doctrine makes that solution obsolete because you claim that man is just as unable to have faith as he is to obey the law and the scripture never teaches us that. It is merely assumed by Calvinists.

Please reconsider your doctrinal system. I am confident it is not correct.

Blessings.

Skan:
I can already anticipate what you might say.

Frogman:
Then there is no reason for me to say anything, right?

Skan:
You might say, "But God did intervene with the teachings of the prophets and the law etc."

Frogman:
Yes, I might say this, but I might not say this.

Skan:
But, remember the law is not the power of God unto salvation, the gospel is. And the sending of the Holy Spirit at penetacost is the "Spirit of the Bride" who says to all, "COME."

Frogman:
Does it say the 'Spirit of the Bride' or 'let the Spirit say come and let the bride say come'? I agree either way this is said to all; but you leave out those who are said to be addressed by this and those to whom will come.

Those who hunger, those who thirst. For what? Are they different than their lost human friends? no, they too are lost, but what makes them to thirst and to hunger but not the murderer or rapist? Is it a moral condition? No, we all have righteousness that equals dirty rags. What separates these then? The regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Skan:

The law was a tutor for people to reveal their need for a savior.

Frogman: Agreed

Skan:
The gospel of grace through faith was the solution to the world's problem.

Frogman: True

Skan:
Your doctrine makes that solution obsolete because you claim that man is just as unable to have faith as he is to obey the law and the scripture never teaches us that.

Frogman: Disagreed. My doctrine consistently makes this work and leaves God on his sovereign throne. The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God (to its own purposes) then how is it going to obey this law either by observance or faith? it cannot. Scripture teaches us this, for Christ did not do away with the law, but he fulfilled it. We come into the world the natural first, we hear of the law of God, naturally we submit to the law, but not until we submit to Christ as the end of the law for righteousness sake can we be made free from this first wife. Also note that we can not submit to the law in our natural condition because we are focusing on the natural, the law.

Skan:
It is merely assumed by Calvinists.

Frogman: No. Calvinists recognize this scriptural truth and declare it.

Bro. Dallas