Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

This is as about as "hyper" as you get...and unfortunately, the logical conclusion to calvinism once all layers are peeled back.

That is not true. The fact remains that faith is necessary for salvation with or without taking into account predestination. God does not predestine those who have not expressed faith in Christ. If someone does not express faith in Christ they are no more saved in Calvinism than they are in Arminianism. Your above statement really exposes your own lack of understanding.

 

[saturneptune]

That is not true. The fact remains that faith is necessary for salvation with or without taking into account predestination. God does not predestine those who have not expressed faith in Christ. If someone does not express faith in Christ they are no more saved in Calvinism than they are in Arminianism. Your above statement really exposes your own lack of understanding.

This is 100% correct. To mix hyper with Calvinism is a total lack of understanding. Calvinists are as much for evangelism and missions as Arminians. One cannot believe on Jesus Christ without faith, and that faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Hyper Calvinists want to put special revelation on auto pilot. That is not the way it works. If one cannot see the difference between hyper and Calvinism, they need their brains rewired.

If I was forced to choose between hyper and Armininism, and not given Calvinism as a choice, I would take Armininism, as much as I disagree about man's ability to choose good. It would be easier to live with that than not spreading the Gospel.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

...If one cannot see the difference between hyper and Calvinism, they need their brains rewired.

Geesumpete saturn why don't you tell us what you really think...:laugh:

Although I would rather think there spiritual eyes need to be opened...

 

[Herb Evans]

BORN AGAIN UNBELIEVERS?​

Under Calvin’s system of belief, there can be no condition other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is their insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications.

Regeneration Before Faith?​

. . .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting.
-- 1 Tim. 1:16

For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

Regeneration or being born again, most would agree, means that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, becomes alive spiritually as a child of God. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life.

Regeneration Before—Repentance, Conversion, Remission of Sins?

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19

. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43

. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance.
-- Acts 26:20

. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18

Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what the Calvinist spin is on that. Repentance precedes conversion and both precede regeneration and the remission of sins. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue life without the remission of one’s sins because one is of the elect.

Regeneration Before Coming to or Having the Son?​

And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40

. . . and THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He that HATH the Son HATH LIFE; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God HATH NOT LIFE. -- 1 John 5:11,12

The term "coming to Jesus" is repugnant to many of Calvin’s disciples. Still, it remains a Bible condition and is a prerequisite for LIFE or REGENERATION. Life is in the Son of God and not in election or some unwritten, pre-adamic decree. You must come to the Son, and you must POSSESS or HAVE the Son or you do not have LIFE or REGENERATION. If one were already regenerated, having life, it would be totally unnecessary to repent and believe unto salvation or have one’s sins remitted.

Regeneration Before Faith and Righteousness?​

But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26

. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE.
-- Matt. 9:13

. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24

Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, nor righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, neither righteousness, nor TRUE HOLINESS.

Regeneration Before Salvation?​

For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8

Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls.
-- 1 Pet. 1:9

. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6

And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

If regeneration or life or the new birth precedes faith, it also must precede salvation of the soul, for salvation is the END OF FAITH—not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe in being saved by the CONDITION OF FAITH! We do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration.

Regeneration Before Holy Spirit Possession?​

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? -- Acts 19:2

Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye . . . have received the Spirit of adoption . . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs . . . -- Rom. 8:14-17

Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.

Conclusion​

. . .God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. — 2 Thess. 2:13

Thus far, if we are to believe our Sovereign Grace Calvinists, if you care to swallow it, we have the preposterous situation of a regenerated, unrepentant, unholy, unjustified, unrighteous, SON-LESS, unconverted, unturned to God, LIFELESS, unsaved, unbelieving non child of God, who does not have the Holy Spirit witness in himself and whose sins are not yet blotted out nor remitted. Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! Conditional upon: 1. Repentance 2. Belief/Faith 3. Conversion 4. Turning to God 5. Having the Son 6. Having the remission of sins 7. True Holiness 8. Righteousness 9. Having salvation10. Having the Holy Spirit


--by Herb Evans

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

BORN AGAIN UNBELIEVERS?​

Under Calvin’s system of belief, there can be no condition other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is their insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications.

Regeneration Before Faith?​

. . .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting.
-- 1 Tim. 1:16

For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

Regeneration or being born again, most would agree, means that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, becomes alive spiritually as a child of God. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life.

Regeneration Before—Repentance, Conversion, Remission of Sins?

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19

. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43

. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance.
-- Acts 26:20

. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18

Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what the Calvinist spin is on that. Repentance precedes conversion and both precede regeneration and the remission of sins. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue life without the remission of one’s sins because one is of the elect.

Regeneration Before Coming to or Having the Son?​

And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40

. . . and THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He that HATH the Son HATH LIFE; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God HATH NOT LIFE. -- 1 John 5:11,12

The term "coming to Jesus" is repugnant to many of Calvin’s disciples. Still, it remains a Bible condition and is a prerequisite for LIFE or REGENERATION. Life is in the Son of God and not in election or some unwritten, pre-adamic decree. You must come to the Son, and you must POSSESS or HAVE the Son or you do not have LIFE or REGENERATION. If one were already regenerated, having life, it would be totally unnecessary to repent and believe unto salvation or have one’s sins remitted.

Regeneration Before Faith and Righteousness?​

But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26

. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE.
-- Matt. 9:13

. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24

Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, nor righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, neither righteousness, nor TRUE HOLINESS.

Regeneration Before Salvation?​

For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8

Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls.
-- 1 Pet. 1:9

. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6

And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

If regeneration or life or the new birth precedes faith, it also must precede salvation of the soul, for salvation is the END OF FAITH—not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe in being saved by the CONDITION OF FAITH! We do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration.

Regeneration Before Holy Spirit Possession?​

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? -- Acts 19:2

Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye . . . have received the Spirit of adoption . . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs . . . -- Rom. 8:14-17

Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.

Conclusion​

. . .God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. — 2 Thess. 2:13

Thus far, if we are to believe our Sovereign Grace Calvinists, if you care to swallow it, we have the preposterous situation of a regenerated, unrepentant, unholy, unjustified, unrighteous, SON-LESS, unconverted, unturned to God, LIFELESS, unsaved, unbelieving non child of God, who does not have the Holy Spirit witness in himself and whose sins are not yet blotted out nor remitted. Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! Conditional upon: 1. Repentance 2. Belief/Faith 3. Conversion 4. Turning to God 5. Having the Son 6. Having the remission of sins 7. True Holiness 8. Righteousness 9. Having salvation10. Having the Holy Spirit


--by Herb Evans

Hey Herb try posting something that you have not already published for a change. Every post of yours is a past and cut job from one of your articles. This is a discussion forum. If we wanted to read published works we could do so.

Now as to your understanding of Calvinism, you are not remotely on target. What you have done is prop up a straw man and knock him down.

Lastly, this discussion is not about Calvinism. It is about the essential nature of the gospel for salvation. Now if you have something to add about the indispensable nature of the gospel, I would be happy to listen.

 

[Jarthur001]

BORN AGAIN UNBELIEVERS?​

Under Calvin’s system of belief, there can be no condition other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is their insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications.

Regeneration Before Faith?​

. . .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting.
-- 1 Tim. 1:16

For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

Regeneration or being born again, most would agree, means that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, becomes alive spiritually as a child of God. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life.

Regeneration Before—Repentance, Conversion, Remission of Sins?

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19

. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43

. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance.
-- Acts 26:20

. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18

Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what the Calvinist spin is on that. Repentance precedes conversion and both precede regeneration and the remission of sins. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue life without the remission of one’s sins because one is of the elect.

Regeneration Before Coming to or Having the Son?​

And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40

. . . and THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He that HATH the Son HATH LIFE; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God HATH NOT LIFE. -- 1 John 5:11,12

The term "coming to Jesus" is repugnant to many of Calvin’s disciples. Still, it remains a Bible condition and is a prerequisite for LIFE or REGENERATION. Life is in the Son of God and not in election or some unwritten, pre-adamic decree. You must come to the Son, and you must POSSESS or HAVE the Son or you do not have LIFE or REGENERATION. If one were already regenerated, having life, it would be totally unnecessary to repent and believe unto salvation or have one’s sins remitted.

Regeneration Before Faith and Righteousness?​

But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26

. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE.
-- Matt. 9:13

. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24

Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, nor righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, neither righteousness, nor TRUE HOLINESS.

Regeneration Before Salvation?​

For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8

Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls.
-- 1 Pet. 1:9

. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6

And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

If regeneration or life or the new birth precedes faith, it also must precede salvation of the soul, for salvation is the END OF FAITH—not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe in being saved by the CONDITION OF FAITH! We do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration.

Regeneration Before Holy Spirit Possession?​

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? -- Acts 19:2

Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye . . . have received the Spirit of adoption . . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs . . . -- Rom. 8:14-17

Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.

Conclusion​

. . .God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. — 2 Thess. 2:13

Thus far, if we are to believe our Sovereign Grace Calvinists, if you care to swallow it, we have the preposterous situation of a regenerated, unrepentant, unholy, unjustified, unrighteous, SON-LESS, unconverted, unturned to God, LIFELESS, unsaved, unbelieving non child of God, who does not have the Holy Spirit witness in himself and whose sins are not yet blotted out nor remitted. Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! Conditional upon: 1. Repentance 2. Belief/Faith 3. Conversion 4. Turning to God 5. Having the Son 6. Having the remission of sins 7. True Holiness 8. Righteousness 9. Having salvation10. Having the Holy Spirit


--by Herb Evans

I can see a time of education is coming. This should be fun.

Hey Herb, I have a idea, lets round up all those Calvinist and burn them like they use to do. You may as well throw the Bibles they read in the fire with them. That is all those Calvinist do, is read does old Bibles. Those silly Calvinist, we can show them...


In Christ....James

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: What constitutes "saving faith" in your opinion?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: What constitutes "saving faith" in your opinion?

My opinion is not important, what the Bible tells us is all too important. F.A.I.T.H. spelled out can be a good way to explain what is meant by saving faith.

F. is for Forgiveness. We need forgiveness for our sins. We cannot have eternal life and heaven without God's forgiveness. Eph. 1:7 tells us that without Jesus shed blood there would be no forgiveness of sin.

A. is for Available. Forgiveness is available for all who believe but it is not automatic. Matt. 7:21 explains that repentance is necessary.

I. is for Impossible. It is impossible for God to allow sin into heaven because of who He is and because of who we are (Romans 3:23).

T. is for Turn. We repent by turning from sin and self (Luke 13:3) and turning to Christ, trusting only in Him (Romans 10:9).

H. is for Heaven. Heaven is eternal life here (John 10:10)and hereafter (John 14:3).

How can a person have God's forgiveness, heaven and eternal life, and Jesus as personal Savior and Lord? By trusting in Christ and asking Him for forgiveness.

 

[Allan]

Hey James,

You know I'm more about civility even in disagrement but lets keep the gloves on and just box.

With that said:
When the Calvinists aquiried their a foothold of power didn't they hunt, kill, and burn all of 'us' Non-Calvinists. Did they not extremely persecute the non-Cal. in Europe and early America?? Answer - Yes. So what is my point?? That this does nothing for the discussion here nor your view.

Keep it clean brother but have fun boxing :thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

BORN AGAIN UNBELIEVERS?​

Under Calvin’s system of belief, there can be no condition other than an unwritten pre-Adamic decree of God (unconditional election). Total depravity, under this cold, dead theological system, means TOTAL INABILITY to do anything for salvation, including repentance and faith. The ABSURD corollary to all this is their insistence that a man is REGENERATED or has LIFE BEFORE he repents or believes. We shall examine this anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and its implications.

Regeneration Before Faith?​

. . .that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting.
-- 1 Tim. 1:16

For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

Regeneration or being born again, most would agree, means that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, becomes alive spiritually as a child of God. Our texts DEMAND that faith or belief precedes said life or regeneration. That presents a problem to those, who would have the elect regenerated BEFORE FAITH, unless they are prepared to argue regeneration BEFORE life, regeneration BEFORE becoming a child of God, or regeneration WITHOUT life.

Regeneration Before—Repentance, Conversion, Remission of Sins?

REPENT ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, THAT YOUR SINS may be blotted out . . . -- Acts 3:19

. . . through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS. -- Acts 10:43

. . . they should REPENT and TURN TO GOD, and do works meet for repentance.
-- Acts 26:20

. . . Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance UNTO LIFE . . . -- Acts 11:18

Repentance is UNTO LIFE and not life unto repentance, regardless whether God grants it and what the Calvinist spin is on that. Repentance precedes conversion and both precede regeneration and the remission of sins. Since remission of sins and conversion or turning to God all hinge on previous repentance, it follows that they all must precede regeneration or life. Unless a Calvinist is prepared to argue life without the remission of one’s sins because one is of the elect.

Regeneration Before Coming to or Having the Son?​

And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye MIGHT HAVE LIFE. -- John 5:40

. . . and THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He that HATH the Son HATH LIFE; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God HATH NOT LIFE. -- 1 John 5:11,12

The term "coming to Jesus" is repugnant to many of Calvin’s disciples. Still, it remains a Bible condition and is a prerequisite for LIFE or REGENERATION. Life is in the Son of God and not in election or some unwritten, pre-adamic decree. You must come to the Son, and you must POSSESS or HAVE the Son or you do not have LIFE or REGENERATION. If one were already regenerated, having life, it would be totally unnecessary to repent and believe unto salvation or have one’s sins remitted.

Regeneration Before Faith and Righteousness?​

But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for RIGHTEOUSNESS. -- Rom. 4:5

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him WHICH BELIEVETH in Jesus. -- Rom. 3:26

. . . I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners TO REPENTANCE.
-- Matt. 9:13

. . . the NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS and true holiness. -- Eph. 4:24

Faith precedes justification and righteousness and repentance, conversion, and remission of sins precede righteousness and holiness, therefore LIFE or regeneration cannot precede repentance, faith, justification, holiness, nor righteousness. Since the new man is created in righteousness, regeneration cannot precede the new creature, neither righteousness, nor TRUE HOLINESS.

Regeneration Before Salvation?​

For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH . . . -- Eph. 2:8

Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, even the SALVATION of your souls.
-- 1 Pet. 1:9

. . .WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him . . . -- Heb. 11:6

And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE . . . -- Luke 7:50

If regeneration or life or the new birth precedes faith, it also must precede salvation of the soul, for salvation is the END OF FAITH—not the beginning of faith. Faith and salvation are not the END of regeneration. We believe in being saved by the CONDITION OF FAITH! We do not regenerate to the saving of the soul. Faith saves, not regeneration.

Regeneration Before Holy Spirit Possession?​

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? -- Acts 19:2

Now if any man HAVE NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS. -- Rom. 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye . . . have received the Spirit of adoption . . . The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs . . . -- Rom. 8:14-17

Romans 8:9 takes care of both Charismatics and Calvinists. If one is a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost cannot be in anyone but a child of God, then regeneration CANNOT precede having Holy Spirit. Unless the Calvinist is prepared to argue having the Holy Spirit before repentance, conversion, remission of sins, faith, righteousness, holiness, salvation, eternal life, and possessing the Son.

Conclusion​

. . .God from the beginning CHOSEN [ELECTED] you to salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth. — 2 Thess. 2:13

Thus far, if we are to believe our Sovereign Grace Calvinists, if you care to swallow it, we have the preposterous situation of a regenerated, unrepentant, unholy, unjustified, unrighteous, SON-LESS, unconverted, unturned to God, LIFELESS, unsaved, unbelieving non child of God, who does not have the Holy Spirit witness in himself and whose sins are not yet blotted out nor remitted. Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! Conditional upon: 1. Repentance 2. Belief/Faith 3. Conversion 4. Turning to God 5. Having the Son 6. Having the remission of sins 7. True Holiness 8. Righteousness 9. Having salvation10. Having the Holy Spirit


--by Herb Evans

Amen brother.

I don't care if it is a cut paste job. It really shows we are regenerated through faith not regenerated unto faith.

 

[Herb Evans]

Hey Herb try posting something that you have not already published for a change. Every post of yours is a past and cut job from one of your articles. This is a discussion forum. If we wanted to read published works we could do so.

Now as to your understanding of Calvinism, you are not remotely on target. What you have done is prop up a straw man and knock him down.

Lastly, this discussion is not about Calvinism. It is about the essential nature of the gospel for salvation. Now if you have something to add about the indispensable nature of the gospel, I would be happy to listen.

I beg to differ with you. I was addressing Allen in post 54 posted the following and more:

"God called to Lydia via the Word and the Spirit opened her heart to understand but Lydia obey the Truth unto salvation.

The view of regeneration before salvation has never been a provable doctrince and therefore has always remained a view. I respect this view but do not believe scripturally the view holds water.

Regeneration is something that deals with the New man BUT the New man is the result of salvation not vise versa. We are a new man IN Christ and not before.

So this NEW Nature where by that indiviual has been changed into gives that person no option but to believe as they CAN NOT, NOT believe now that they are changed. If this is not the most extreme version of Coersion I don't know what is."

I was agreeing with him. So much for trying to silence the opposition. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Amen brother.

I don't care if it is a cut paste job. It really shows we are regenerated through faith not regenerated unto faith.

Thank you brother. Calvinists go ballistic when confronted with something thhat they cannot handle or hear. They stop up their ears as they did in Europe with Servetes and killed him. Calvinist New England did the same and put Baptist preachers in prison and beat them for preaching. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

swaimj]Faith Alone,
I don't agree with the theological presupposition you have revealed that faith can be exercised apart from repentance at the time of salvation. That's probably a discussion for another thread, so I digress.

We are even! I don't agree with you either, so the Bible will have to break the tie. I did not reveal that faith could be exercised apart from repentance. That is your straw man. My treatise was regarding regeneration before faith and tepentance. -- Herb Evans

Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. -- Herb Evans

A man must repent before he can believe. If a man does not repent, he cannot believe. -- Herb Evans

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

God made repentance and forgiveness of sins Israel available to all Israel, but all Israel did not repent. --Herb Evans

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God also granted all the Gentiles repentance UNTO life, but all the Gentiles did not take avail themselves of the repentance UNTO life. --Herb Evans

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John preached repentance so that Israelites might believe on Christ Jesus. -- Herb Evans

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Repentance toward God must preceed faith, faith which alone can only save, since repentance alone cannot save. -- Herb Evans

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

It is the goodness of God, not the man (or predestination), that leads a man to repentance. -- Herb Evans

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wills that all that he has granted repentance to come to repentance. But all do not come, therefore all do not get saved by believing-- Herb Evans

 

[saturneptune]

Thank you brother. Calvinists go ballistic when confronted with something thhat they cannot handle or hear. They stop up their ears as they did in Europe with Servetes and killed him. Calvinist New England did the same and put Baptist preachers in prison and beat them for preaching. -- Herb Evans

This is not a thread about Calvinism. It is about faith. Is it that difficult to follow the op of the thread? We have had enough Calvininst vs free will threads to last a life time.

If your views about the sovreignty of God are like your end time theories, I will take the other side.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hey James,

You know I'm more about civility even in disagrement but lets keep the gloves on and just box.

With that said:
When the Calvinists aquiried their a foothold of power didn't they hunt, kill, and burn all of 'us' Non-Calvinists. Did they not extremely persecute the non-Cal. in Europe and early America?? Answer - Yes. So what is my point?? That this does nothing for the discussion here nor your view.

Keep it clean brother but have fun boxing :thumbs:

Not really,

Yes it did happen 2-3 times. It seems like this is the way people handle things back then. This is another reason I brought this up. When the hate starts flowing as you seen above, the next thing you see is where "John Calivin burns someone"...as seen below.

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification.

What is funny is how non-Calvinist come running to defend a person that has just bashed a known doctrine held by many in the church and held by many of the top church leaders of the past. Calling the doctrines of grace "ABSURD, anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine". I like this line.."Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! "....don't you?

Most of what was said shows poor understanding of the doctrines of Grace, and for that we get ..."Amen...Preach it brother!!!" And because I just bring up the next logical step to rid the world of this unscriptural, philosophical assumption, to burn the Calvinist and their evil Bibles, you feel it is I that has over stepped?

Humm...that tells me something.

There was alot of burning going on, back then. Not that any of it was right, but it should not be viewed as sola Calvinist driven. As a matter of fact, there are only a small number that I know of that were killed by Calvinist.

Some CALVINIST (doctrine of Grace) put to death.........

John Wyclif, John Huss,Jerome of Prague, William Sautre, John Claydon, Thomas Bilvey, William Tyndale, James Bainham, John Lambert, Robert Barnes, Arnoud Diericx, Gillis Verdickt, Carolus de Koninck, Antoon Verdickt, Adriaan Coreman the painter, and Hendrik Snoelacke van Boekholt the tailor.. Then you have the persecutions of John Bunyan, Martin Luther, John Calvin and scores of others..Puritans and Pilgrims (a minority) who ran from the King James of England who wanted to jail them.

Please read what happened to the Dutch Church.

http://www.digitalbookindex.com/_search/search010hsteuropeandutchreva.asp

Also read "Marks of the Children of God"...and...."Foxes Book"


As to John Calvin, Calvin did not kill any one as claimed by the statement shown above. You see stuff like this all the time. Calvin did tell the state that doctrinal heresies of a man, and at that time it was the law of the land to put to death those that held to some heresies. Thank God we do not have that law in this nation. Calvin did not do the burning...for Calvin did not have the power. It was the state. It was the state that had the law...that enforced the law...that put one person to death for this crime. Calvin as not to have him burned. Yet even if you blaim Calvin, this was done my all sides. None of it was right. Therefore you are wrong in saying this was Calvinsit doing this.

In England it was King James that had the power to jail Puritans and Pilgrims and did so. Puritans and Pilgrims were Calvinist. Your post just showes another anti Calvinist hate saying this was all Calvins doing. No jail time, or killing was right, yet it was done my all.

Why bring this up? Well with the hate posted above and the lack of education, and to have others say "amen" and defend this, is to follow the same paths of yesteryear. If it was wrong back then, it is wrong today.

I need to keep it clean? How about those that would have us gone? How about those that say we are ABSURD, anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine and follow a man and not God? Do you think this is clean? No...it is stupid. So is burning people for their faith.

Where is all this "love" that Freewillers talk about so much?? Love the other man...as long as they believe as I. Other wise...get out the matches.

So...what should we do? Should we debate from the Bible the truths, or just go ahead and burn the Calvinist? I'll burn for my God and my Bible....go ahead...light me up.



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Thank you brother. Calvinists go ballistic when confronted with something thhat they cannot handle or hear. They stop up their ears as they did in Europe with Servetes and killed him. Calvinist New England did the same and put Baptist preachers in prison and beat them for preaching. -- Herb Evans

If you want to talk about history, fine...we can do that. I do not think you will be happy with what I tell you. History is kinda my thing. I do not know it all...but it is clear from your statements you know very little.

So what will it be? History...or the Subject of Faith ...which is what this thread is about?

 

[Herb Evans]

If you want to talk about history, fine...we can do that. I do not think you will be happy with what I tell you. History is kinda my thing. I do not know it all...but it is clear from your statements you know very little.

So what will it be? History...or the Subject of Faith ...which is what this thread is about?

I do not want to talk about history. That was a side comment to the Psalmist and not to you. When I want to talk history to you, I will let you know. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification.

This statement is denied by some as they tell us that Calvin only presided at Servetus' trial and that Calvin merely assented to the court's verdict. Now, don't you feel better about it already. The only question I have about that is what faith composed the court? -- Hreb Evans

 

[psalms109:31]

Witness

Thank you brother. Calvinists go ballistic when confronted with something thhat they cannot handle or hear. They stop up their ears as they did in Europe with Servetes and killed him. Calvinist New England did the same and put Baptist preachers in prison and beat them for preaching. -- Herb Evans

I went this service once to a youth sevice, they were already depraving the hearts of the youth before they even have a chance to see the hope that God gave to the world through Jesus.

It broke my heart, we need to know how hopeless we are without Jesus, but also need to know the hope we have through Jesus

 

[Jarthur001]

I went this service once to a youth sevice, they were already depraving the hearts of the youth before they even have a chance to see the hope that God gave to the world through Jesus.

It broke my heart, we need to know how hopeless we are without Jesus, but also need to know the hope we have through Jesus

There are 3 things that a person must understand about God in order for slavation to take place. Now God is more then just these 3 things, but without knowing of them, one could never become saved.

1..The fact of God.

One must believe there is a God before you can trust in Him. This is not just saying there..."OK...there is a God". Its the idea of the all powerful being that is holy and above all and in control. Not only does God make rain, but God makes it rain. God knows all things, and is everywhere. One must have the full idea of a great and powerful God that is holy. Holy in that He hates sin. This is shown in contrast to man..the sinner. God hates sin...we sin.

Now one does not have to know the detail of all of this, but the over all idea must be in the persons mind about who God is. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I didn't say this..God did. If we do not see this..where is fear? If no fear...where is wisdom?

2...God will judge all of mankind.

God Hates sin, God Hates sin, God Hates sin, and God knows all things. God knows we all sin. To sin is to say, you think your ways are better then Gods ways. You want your "will" and not Gods will. There is payment for sins. God will judge us for our sin. One sin, or 1000000 sins. The number does not matter. The wages of sin is death. Death from ever being "right" with God. The place is Hell...where we are headed for our sins toward a holy God.

3...God redeems.

Being that all men sin and all men need to be saved, placed "right" before God....Being that Man cannot keep the laws of God...being that man can not save himself...in love God sent His Son to pay for sins that we maybe "right" with God. This is the atonement, which is a love act by God. Christ saves sinners. Christ blood washes away sins. This is Gods love. This is John 3:16. It is God that reaches out to man...not man that choose God. It is God that sent His Son...not man that came to God. Leave man alone...and all will end up in Hell. The light came...the world said no thanks. God elects and redeems. This is Gods plan...not mans

**********
What we hear my so many is...."God is love...sign this card and your on you way to heaven". Or on mothers day we may hear..."how many people love their mothers...raise your hand. GREAT...God is love too...so you are on your way to heaven".

This love ..love because God is Love, so pass out the flowers and sing "I love you Lord"...is anything but salvation. God is much more then love. Read the love chaper in 1 cor. God loves, but tell me how God limits His love. Its found in 1 Cor. Faith comes from ...KNOWING...and Believeing....where you worship God and not yourself. We have faith in God for God has opened our eyes to the truth and shows us our NEED for salvation, because we are sinners that stands before a holy God that hates sin. We can never have faith, till we see our sins and our need to have Christ save us. The elect is not just a "man I feel good" club. Its the group that has trusted in Christ to save them from there sins.

Ask any one if they want to go to Hell..they will say no. Ask them if they want to be saved from Hell. Most will reply..."sure..why not". Now ask the same person..."do you want to be saved from your sins?" aaaaaw no. People love sin more then they love God. They think they are just fine.

People...We are not saved from Hell, we are saved from our sins that places us in Hell. if you take a short cut to salvation, you will end up in the wrong place.

This is Salvation that comes from the doctrines of Grace. No card is needed. We do not hand out flowers and hold hands to chant .."God is Love, God is Love, God is Love". God is indeed love...but only as viewed though a holy God.


In Christ...James