Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

Sin

Sin in simple terms is loving created things over the creator. Plain and simple.

God is many things He is just, love, jealous, and many other names we call God that we learn from His word, but not one of His attributes are lifted higher than another.

The same hope you have He has given to the world and made us who believe the messengers.

He does not respect you are me, so it is oviouse that the same hope you have He has given to everyone.

He does not incline our heart to believe, but gives a choice, to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned.

I have not placed this choice in front of you God did.

God will give us over to our own evil desire if we turn away from His grace He has given to us through Jesus.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

So if you turn away it is not because God does not want you to enter, it is because you turned away from His Son.

God has set before you life and death, so choose Jesus so you may live.

God is working through us, if we turn away from the work God has prepared in advance for us to do we will face the consequences.

Generation after generation has been perishing because those who has called to do His will had decided to go thier own way

 

Hello psalms109:31

I would not say it that simple, for you left out the main subject. Man.
Trees do not sin. A rock will not sin. Air will not sin. Money is not sin, nor sex, nor drugs. Sin comes from man. Man is the sinner and must always be addressed when we talk about sin.

To stick with your statement, we need to say Man loves things better then God.

But this still falls short. Its just not objects, its the will. Man wants his will, in all things over and above Gods will. Or man will take Gods will if it is the same as mans will. Sin is the battle of Gods will or your will.

I say God is in control...what do you say?

Indeed..and to only talk about Gods love is to mock God for who He is. God HATES. Some people cannot say that. But God hates Sin...and men sin. You can not say God loves the sinner but hates sin. Sin does not happen unless a man does it!! Therefore to with hold this attribute from God is WRONG. To left up LOVE and say God never hates is wrong. This is found in freewill doctrine over and over. Do you deny God His holy state? Do you say God can not hate? This is in all ways going down a path that is away from the truth found in Gods Word.

All true hope comes from GOD!! Without God, there is no hope. People die each day with no hope, for that know not of God. Some die and never understand their need for God. Why did I hear? Why did I understand? Am I smarter then othes? Did God see less sin in me then others? Nope...Tis God that gives understanding. I'm not smarter. I'm sorry to tell you this...But you're not smarter then Mr Joe Sinner. God gave you all that you have. He gave you wisdom, and blessing and understanding. It was not you...it was God.

The man with no hope, does not understand hope is in God. You can tell him..and he may still not understand his need. You can hit him over the head with a Bible..and he may just have a sore Head. The Holy Spirit must work in his heart for him to have hope.

Hope changes not. The hope is always there. But some will never know of that great hope. Some will hear of it, yet will not understand that this hope can be their own. Why? Election my friend. I can not set here and claim.."look how smarty I am!! I was told and I understood my need and believed". Nope...much smarter people then I was not given as much grace as me. I have hope, for God let me see hope in His Son.

If the will is left only to choice, man would always choose sin over God. No one seeks after God. Free choice is the sure way to place all of mankind in Hell. Thank God for election, where God picks His bride in Love and mercy.

That choice to choose God is not placed in front of all men.

Romans 1 says this has happened.

Notice again what sin is. Man wanting his own will over Gods will.

Then why did God not save Adam and Eve and be done with it? Each day more people go to hell. Is God waiting to save all mankind....or waiting for all the elect to believe? One way the plan is working..the other way it is not. How big is your God? Can your Gods plan come about?

God places no one in Hell, sin does. People are on their way to hell, and will go there unless God steps in. He is in control. right?

And man choose sin. Man will always seek sin. Man will never come to God unless God reaches out to him.

And will keep on perishing, for they want their will over Gods will. Each moment Christ does not return, more men go to Hell. Man can not stop others from going to Hell. Man saves no one. All we can do is share the good news and let God work. You cannot trick someone into believeing. God saves...you share. You can also pray, but then you must trust God. God is in control, even if you do not like the idea.



I happen to think God knows what He is doing.



In Christ...James

 

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: My question was, "What consitutes saving faith?" I assume that your answer is like that of other Arminians; A genuine belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. There is a lot contained in that statement! You understand that as a "theologian."

Arians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, although some reject His "eternal sonship." Unitarians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I am going to assume, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are a Trinitarian and more than likely believe in the eternal sonship of Christ. Must one believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, in order for their faith to constitute "saving faith" as you call it? If so, many professing Christians are not children of God.

Many other Christians do not even acknowledge that God, before the foundation of the world, chose a definite number of the descendants of Adam and that Jesus died for them only. They reject very important aspects of what You and I conceive to be Biblical salvation. Does that mean they are not children of God?

I guess my question is, What must one believe in order for their faith to be recognized as saving faith.

 

James,
I was speaking as a friend and brother that you keep your testimony clean and not jump it with condeming and condesending remarks. But I guess you attutude betrays me as to what little I thought I knew of you.

As to running to bring up... No body brought up, that I noted and I know I did not bring up Calvin having a man burned alive. You are rushing to defend something from nothing. This is not about a brother who is dead by the name Calvin.

You Stated:
My post shows anti-Calvinist hate about John Calvins doing - Brother, that is a blatent mischaractorization of me and misinfomation about what I wrote. I would gladly accept your appology for your accusing statement of hate speach with regard to my Calvinist Brothers in Christ wherewith NO SUCH ACCUSATION from me came about OR EVEN concerning the Brother John Calvin. My statement was that The Non-Calvinists (those of like faith but different theological VIEWS) had been killed just as the Calvinsts. And historically mind you though the Christains (Calvinists and Non) were killed and persecuted by the Catholic Church, the Non-Cals were killed and persecuted by their FELLOW brethren of LIKE FAITH (the Reformed) AND also the Catholic Church. Go back and re-read brother your Christian History for their deaths were much greater in number than 2-3 (sic). And then my point was added - This information does NOTHING to this argument being spoke of herein.

Do you know of any Calvinist who would like the Non-Calvinist theology removed?? Of course you do, why else consistantly use derogitory names, flippant remarks, and condesending comments. I cared (as your friend) more about how you SHOULD be presenting yourself than the attitude you have 'shelled' up and then cast at me as though I accosted you. I wanted you to keep it clean - for is it not better that you suffer for right than for wrong.

I have spoken with you enough that you know I have not brought any accusation against you for your view EVEN when others had in many of our dealings. We dealt scripture for scripture and nothing more.

 

obvious

It is obvious that sin comes from man not God.

God did create us perfect without sin. It was not created in us it was found.

God is in control yes and He gave us over to our own evil desires.

We didn't seek after God, so God is seeking after us and we are His messenger.

God does love the world, that He sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

As the scripture says God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowlege of the truth.

God hates sin, not man. He gave all men hope through this one Jesus. Just as sin enter through one man, so through this one called Jesus hope came to all man.

God has set life and death in front of us.

Do not believe these men, this whole world has a hope. God according to His word is only going to save believers who endure to the end.

Do not let men give youy a false hope in election, because your hope is not in election, but in Jesus.

Do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either.

Continue in God's kindness and in the hope you had at first. Your hope began in Jesus, for He is the author and finisher of our faith.

God hate is not stronger than His love, so all men have a hope through Jesus.

 

Control

If God is in control of our choices, no one sin and the angels would of never rebelled.

 

What is funny is how non-Calvinist come running to defend a person that has just bashed a known doctrine held by many in the church and held by many of the top church leaders of the past. Calling the doctrines of grace "ABSURD, anti-Christian, anti-Bible doctrine". I like this line.."Regeneration before these things is an unscriptural, philosophical assumption (as is most of Calvin's followers’ nonsense) to cover up the Calvinist TULIP doctrine. Both regeneration and election are CONDITIONAL! "....don't you?

No, I don't, of course, since I wrote it. But I would also defend the Quaker woman that they hanged in New England. Life is precious and so is freedom of religion. Christians are not Muslims. -- Herb Evans

 

Nope, what is absurd is your totally inability to follow the subject of a thread. Now, Herb, listen close, the subject is faith. Not Calvin, faith. Please inject your Calvin history in your silly end time debates.

 

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: I honestly do not mean any rancor or sarcasm in questioning you, but do you understand how severely you limit redemption by maintaining that all who have been born from above WILL subscribe to the truth?

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:" -Galatians 1:6.

I prefer the phrase "preservation of the saints" as opposed to "perseverance of the saints." It is obvious that Paul did not esteem the Galatians as "professors but not possessors." God had called them into the grace of Christ.

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucifed among you?" -Galatians 3:1.

True, the Galatians had believed the truth, but they were not obeying it.

 

Hello psalms109:31

Where was sin found?

At times I get lost in your one line statements. There is some truth to much of what you say, but you never complete the statement. God did give some over, and others he kept coming after.

The we here....is the elect? If so...yes. If not, I do not understand your statement.

God loves the world, for His people are part of the world. This is like if I said I love food. I do love food, but this does not mean I love liver. A love of sports does not mean I love each team.

Let me show you something. You know the passage in Romans 9 that Calvinist talk about when it comes to this subject? I'm sure you do. I'm also sure you know where this comes from in the OT. Now many want to change the would hate to another word, so to tone down the statement. You know...to help out God some way. After all God must have over looked this part, for God would never hate a people. So...they change the word. Change the meaning...just to help God out. But lets look at the place where this is used and see if it works.

Please take note of this..." Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?"

God said he loved them (jews) yet they are saying..when? where? how? You loved US God? Show me that you love us God....cause we dont remember.

And this is how God replied to prove His love......"Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD"
Yes...so what's the point God? Well God says......I loved Jacob, but I did not love Esau.

You see it does not make a bit of sense if we change the word to something else. It in fact goes beyond this and says...

Hate? Yes that is what it says. Esau was a person 1st, then a nation full of people. In this verse it is still talking about the man, not the nation. The land was not hated, the brother was. But wait that's not all...lets look at the next verse where it moves from the brother to the brothers nation.

How long shall God hate them? FOREVER!!!!

Notice "they shall them the border of wickedness"...is part of the decree made by God, and not based on what Edom had done.

Remember the point of this passage is love. The point is God is showing His love for His people. The people asked....When or where did you love us. In showing this love God brings up Edom/Esau and reminds His people that He loved them and hated their brother and will forever. Where as He will love His people forever.

This has nothing to do with good works, for the jews were not sinless. They sinned just as much as others. Yet...God loved them...and hated Esau.

So...can God hate people?

Hope is here..I agree. But all do not know of this hope. I disagree that one must work to be saved

Poor understanding of election. Election is TO salvation. Hope is in Christ. I know of no one that hopes in election.

Again...you only say part of the truth. You need to read this whole passage. God has not given up on the Nation.

No one has said Gods hate is stronger. But you have said God can love man, but cannot hate man. That is wrong.

 

Faith

Ezekiel 28:
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

God will give us over to our own evil desire, but He will also give us over to the desire for Him.

He has placed life and death in front of us. Believe in Jesus and live or not and be condemned. The Jews was chosen to be His people. Those who rejected His Son. Jesus did what denied them. As Jesus says if you deny me in front man I will deny you before my Father in Heaven. It was not God not wanting them to come He wanted to gather then like the Hens does her chicks.

It wasn't God who wasn't willing, it was them. The elected to salvation is believers not the other way around. If you believe in Jesus you shall be saved.

Paul's letter were to believers and yes He can tell them that they were elect because they believed in Jesus

You are very confused about what God means by world. He loved the world and He want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God loved the world and all men that He sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

God did not send Jesus in the world to condemn it but to save it and you are suppose to be His messenger. This is what God has called you to do is the bring the good news to the world. All you are going to win is wicked hearts when you limit Gods love as men limit His love. mr. pink is deceiving the world and not given them the hope they have in Jesus.

I have no problem with the old testiment. We need to know that God hated esau, but loved jacob. God worked things out in the line of Jesus, because after Jesus is lifted up and glorified hope was given to all men. To the world that you are a messenger off. You cannot change the word of God to match your doctrine. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth that you are a messenger of.

You hope is in Jesus to election to salvation. You don't get elected to Jesus. Through Jesus we are elected to salvation. When we come to Jesus we have a choice to believe and be saved or not and be condemned

IF you believe in Jesus you are elected to salvation if you do not you are elected to condemnation by the words of Jesus.

You are putting words in my mouth.

God loved the world that He wants to save us, but God has placed life and death in front of us when we choose Jesus we live or not and be condemned.

Men have always wanted to blame God for thier condition, you can do so no longer, because He has given the world a hope through Jesus and made you the messenger of it. You can turn away if you want.

 

Hello psalms109:31

Yes....this is talking about Adam in the garden. You had said...

Now let me ask again...

"where was sin found?



In Christ......James

 

scripture

It was talking about King tyre, it was talking about Adam, but it is really talking about Satan the deceiver.

The liar who tries to get men not to believe in the words of God. God really didn't mean you will surely die.

No God really didn't mean He loved the world that He sent His that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

 

Hello psalms109:31

The last part in bold, be so kind to give a verse please.

Yes..we have talked about this before...and...

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now who comes to the light? Romans 3 says no man. John 1 says the world rejects the light. Verse 20 in this passage says..The light came and men loved the darkness rather then the light.

And Peter will not be in Heaven???? Does not most of mankind reject Jesus at 1st? Yet they can be saved. Right?

Maybe there is a greater meaning to this then what you place on it.

Yes...ALL of mankind elects the light. Thank God for election. right?

Where in the Bible does it say this? God chose the choosen because they chose to be the choosen?????

I say the world means the world. You say world means all mankind. Who is confused?

The Bible never claims the God will save the whole world.

What does mr pink have to do with it? How about the Word of God? You are wrong to tell sinners that God loves them giving them a hope in God and went let them stay in sin. God saves sinners into a new life of right living.

I agree...Nor can you change the Word of God. So please do not.

Wrong. God the father elects. The Holy Spirit Draws. Christ saves. When we come to Jesus we are saved. We go from Dark to light. We are not given a choice of being comdemned, we are condemned already. In mercy God saves us.

This is just not found in Gods Word. Please do not make up the gospel or change it to your doctrine.

You change the Word Of God!!! Please do not do this.

Lets start seeing some Bible verses and not your logic.

like this passage that pictures salvation as wisdom...

20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

>>Note: Salvation cries out to all men..simple(open minded)..scorners(Mockers)...the fool(those that have heard the good news, but do not understand the need to be saved)

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

 

Let me ask for the 3rd time. You said..

Where was sin found?

 

Sin

Sin comes from our own heart when we desire what was created over the creator.

God created us to worship Him, we desired to worship the creation over the creator.

It was found not because God created our heart that way, but we desired what was created over the created. That is why it is found not created.

I believe

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster.

That does not mean that God created us to be wicked, but our wickness was found in us.

We are to hide His word in our hearts that we might not sin against Him.

We can change now we know what God wants from us to believe and worship Him.

God will create in us a new heart undivided when we hide His word in our hearts. It is by obey the word of truth that we our born again. The word is to believe in Jesus and you will be saved and to continue in the confidence that we had at first. You want God to purify, but you purify yourself by obeying the word of truth. It is by faith in Jesus you are saved.

Psalm 119:11
I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.

Ephesians 5:26to make her holy, cleansing[Or having cleansed] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

James 4:7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

1 Peter 1:22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.[Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever."[Isaiah 40:6-8] And this is the word that was preached to you.

 

John 3

John 3 tells us who is elected to salvation.

That believers shall be saved, that is being elected, He doesnt say might or maybe but shall, and those who do not have already been condemned so yes non believers are predestined to condemnation. To save believers was God dicision before even the foundation of the world the word of God says about Abraham that he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

I did not say it God did, that those who endure to the end shall be saved. Peter endured to the end, he didn't commit suicide. Enduring to the end does not mean that you don't fall down, but it means that you are going to get up and finish the race.

If peter would of continued in his denying of Jesus according to the word of God Peter would of not been saved.

Romans 11:23
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

That is why we need the world messenger and the hope of Jesus.

Don't be a man, but a child with the only hope for salvation as in Jesus. As the kingdom was made for such of them.

World mens all men, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowlege of the truth

I do not either, the bible says whosoever believes in Him shall be saved and it is an offer to all men because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowlege of the truth

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

 

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