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Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

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Amy.G

New Member
The Bible is the special revelation of God that is needed in order to be saved.
I knew nothing about the Bible when I was saved. Maybe I'm not saved. :tear:

If you want to argue the merits of your case based on hypotheticals then I will challenge you to solve this question: Can God make something so big that he cannot move it? Have fun
.
Useless question

Because people in here like Amy and DHK have some explaining to do when they suggest that someone can be saved apart from faith in Christ
Never said that. People like Baptist paster/theologian are arrogant and need to find some humility.

They have not reached a level of mental ascent where they can discern good from evil and they do not have the knowledge of Romans 1 that they had broken God's law.
People who have never seen a Bible or heard the gospel have no knowledge of Romans 1 either.

It seems to me that you are saying that billions of people will be spending eternity in hell because they never heard the gospel. Maybe so. God is in charge and I do not question His authority. I just don't think you have proven your point with scripture.
 

l_PETE_l

New Member
For example, when the Bible says people are "dead in their transgressions" until God makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5), I see this as explaining that people are incapable of believing, because sin has destroyed their moral freedom, until God gives them new life in Christ.

We almost agree on this. I don't believe someone has to be saved before they can believe, but I do believe someone must be persuaded by the word of God and the Holy Ghost.

This is the part that always gave me trouble. If we have anything to do with it, then it raises certain questions. Why was I persuaded and others not? Was I smarter, more open, had more opportunity, better prachers, etc. If He is doing the work it leaves no reason for anyone to boast.
 

AVBunyan

New Member
Faith has everything to do with salvation but the question is whose faith? I believe it is Christ's faith that justifies.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,Aso our righteousness comes by way of Christ's faith:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

Our practical faith comes afterwards as a result of justification.

God bless
 

LeBuick

New Member
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian said:
Where I disagree with your view is where you suppose that God is morally obligated to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel. The plain truth is that with or without the opportunity to hear the gospel everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and there is no one that is righteous. Therefore each individual is held accountable for not fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law..

John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God sent his son to save the world. If God limits who hears the Gospel, then this verse is not true. I believe God is obligated to give everyone a chance at salvation, it was the very reason he sent his son. God's Gospel is for the world.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
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1 John 5:1 clearly states that he who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, just like the one who practices righteousness (1 John 2:29) and loves (1 John 4:7). These things do not make us children of God, but are evidences that we are. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: which WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -John 1:12, 13. Faith is not the condition, but the evidence.

As far as God being "obligated" to give everyone a "chance" to hear the Gospel, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? -Romans 9:20, 21. God will send His Gospel to whomever He chooses.
 
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Baptist_Pastor/Theologian said:
A

If you want to argue the merits of your case based on hypotheticals then I will challenge you to solve this question: Can God make something so big that he cannot move it? Have fun.
Actually, I can answer this.

When you unpack this question, it has a couple of logical fallacies. One is that it is really asking two questions:
--Can God make something infinitely big?
--Can God move something infinitely big?

The answer to the first is that God can make something as big as all space, so that it is as big as anything could be.
The second question is an absurd question, since if something were as big as all space, there is nowhere to move it. After all, it has taken up all space.....to where could you move it?
So this question is actually a logical fallacy, one of asking two conflicting questions.

So in light of the explanation above, the answer is simple: No, God can't make something so big he cannot move it. Big deal.

Somehow the implication is that by saying "no, God can't do that" then we are allegedly admitting some sort of limitation in God. But this too is not true, since there are many things God can't do: He can't sin, he can't stop being God, he can't decide to make himself finite, He can't die, he can't do a lot of things, such as be limited by logically fallacious questions.

So the question is answered.
 

Amy.G

New Member
AVBunyan said:
Faith has everything to do with salvation but the question is whose faith? I believe it is Christ's faith that justifies.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,Aso our righteousness comes by way of Christ's faith:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

Our practical faith comes afterwards as a result of justification.

God bless
These scriptures are talking about our faith in Christ. Not the faith of Christ.
Matthew Henry commentary: Romans 3:22

This is the righteousness of God; righteousness of his ordaining, and providing, and accepting. It is by that faith which has Jesus Christ for its object; an anointed Saviour, so Jesus Christ signifies.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. -Acts 13:39.

All who believe are justified, "For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." -Romans 10:4. They cannot keep the whole law, but they can point to the One who did on their behalf. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:" -Galatians 3:13. One who seeks to be justified cannot do so apart from Christ, "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -2 Corinthians 5:21. He is the One whom God set forth to be the propitiation for our sins, and the man who seeks to justify himself by his works, which are as filthy rags, will find himself in bondage with no way of escape. Therefore it is said, "...all that believe are justified...," for Christ, the object of their faith, has fulfilled the law, and the one who does not believe in Him has no basis on which to claim exemption from its penalty.

This is what Scripture refers to as being "justified by faith." It has nothing to do with God rewarding a sinner with a positive verdict for his subjective act of faith, which, by the way, is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).

 

LeBuick

New Member
PrmtvBptst1832 said:
As far as God being "obligated" to give everyone a "chance" to hear the Gospel, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? -Romans 9:20, 21. God will send His Gospel to whomever He chooses.

I'm not questioning God or being rebellious, he obligated himself when he sent his Son to save the WORLD.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Humblesmith said:
Actually, I can answer this.

When you unpack this question, it has a couple of logical fallacies. One is that it is really asking two questions:
--Can God make something infinitely big?
--Can God move something infinitely big?

The answer to the first is that God can make something as big as all space, so that it is as big as anything could be.
The second question is an absurd question, since if something were as big as all space, there is nowhere to move it. After all, it has taken up all space.....to where could you move it?
So this question is actually a logical fallacy, one of asking two conflicting questions.

So in light of the explanation above, the answer is simple: No, God can't make something so big he cannot move it. Big deal.

Somehow the implication is that by saying "no, God can't do that" then we are allegedly admitting some sort of limitation in God. But this too is not true, since there are many things God can't do: He can't sin, he can't stop being God, he can't decide to make himself finite, He can't die, he can't do a lot of things, such as be limited by logically fallacious questions.

So the question is answered.

I always wondered what the answer to that was! :D
 

Allan

Active Member
Originally Posted by PrmtvBptst1832
As far as God being "obligated" to give everyone a "chance" to hear the Gospel, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? -Romans 9:20, 21. God will send His Gospel to whomever He chooses.
You are right! And He chooses to send it to and into the World that the World through Him MIGHT be saved. Christ died for sinners...God reconciling the world unto Himself...Light was the truth Light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the WORLD... and on and on saith the scriptures. .

No one argues that not ALL will be saved as says scripture - but all are in mind:
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I posted this not long ago as it was compiled by (I think) John Rhodes an avowed 4 point Calvinist. and maybe it is pertinate, then again maybe not - but You can decide:
Quotations from the Early Church Fathers
Clement of Alexandria (150-220): "Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race."

Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."

Athanasius (293-373): "Christ the Son of God, having assumed a body like ours, because we were all exposed to death [which takes in more than the elect], gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father."

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world."

Basil (330-379): "But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all."

Ambrose (340-407): "Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit."
He also said, "Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed."

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?"
He also stated, "The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins."

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): "The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father."

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): "As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption."
He also said, "The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world." He then said, "Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it."

Quotations from the Reformers of the 16th Century
Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

Philip Melanchton (1497-1560): "It is necessary to know that the Gospel is a universal promise, that is, that reconciliation is offered and promised to all mankind. It is necessary to hold that this promise is universal, in opposition to any dangerous imaginations on predestination, lest we should reason this promise pertains to a few others and ourselves. But we declare that the promise of the Gospel is universal. And to this are brought those universal expressions which are used constantly in the Scriptures."

Other people involved to some degree in the Reformation who held to unlimited atonement include: Hugh Latimer, Myles Coverdale, Thomas Cranmer, Wolfgang Musculus, Henry Bullinger, Benedict Aretius, Thomas Becon, Jerome Zanchius, David Paraeus, and John Calvin.

Quotations from Other Luminaries from Recent Church History
Philip Schaff: "His saving grace flows and overflows to all and for all, on the simple condition of faith....If, by the grace of God, I could convert a single skeptic to a childlike faith in Him who lived and died for me and for all, I would feel that I had not lived in vain."

B. F. Westcott: "Potentially, the work of Christ extends to the whole world." And "the love of God is without limit on His part, but to appropriate the blessing of love, man must fulfill the necessary condition of faith."

A. T. Robertson: [The word "world" in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world" - means] "the whole cosmos of men, including the Gentiles, the whole human race," and adds that "this universal aspect of God's love appears also in II Cor. 5:19; Rom. 5:8."

Tidbits
The 6th council in Constantinople (680-681) declared, "Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race."

The reformers, and certainly the children of the reformers, were not united on this matter. It is, of course, no secret to the student of the Reformation that the Lutheran branch almost without exception embraced the unlimited view. "But that Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, Brentius, Oecoiampadius, Zwinglius and Bucer held to the doctrine of a general atonement...
Thus also, it was with their immediate successors, as the language of the Psalgrave Confession testifies.... 'Of the power and death of Christ, believe we,' say these German Christians, that the death of Christ (whilst he being not a bare man, but the Son of God, died,) is a full, all sufficient payment, not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. . . [James Richards, Lectures on Mental Philosophy and Theology (New York: M. W. Dodd, 1846) p. 304]

The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) of the German Reformed Church in answer to the thirty-seventh question, "What dost thou understand by the word Suffered?" has this answer: "That all the time he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, he bore, in body and soul, the wrath of God against the of the whole human race...."[pg 8]

John Calvins Commentaries: (During the later years of his life Calvin wrote his commentaries, which reveal some development of thought, and in which he avoided some of the extremes found in the Institutes.)
John 3:16, he said: ". . . The Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.'' Concerning the term whosoever in the same verse, he said: "And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the impact of the term world, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favour of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.''

Such an understanding of this verse and the words employed in it is certainly not in keeping with many who claim to be Calvinists, as the following pages will reveal. Another illustration of Calvin's view is to be found in his explanation of:

Matthew 26:28. ". . .This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." He says: "Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race" [Underline is mine]

It is in fact it would be better held that Limited atonement was not popular UNTIL the Synod of Dort.

and with just a small addition:
Romans 5:18 says: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Regarding this verse, John Calvin says: "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all [i.e., in their experience]; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."

Regarding the two occurrences of the phrase "all men," E. H. Gifford comments: "The words all men [in v. 18] must have the same extent in both clauses."
 

Allan

Active Member
One last thought to tie what I just posted together:

If Unlimited Atonement is as MANY have and still do believe it (and if it be true) it makes holding to Irresistable Grace harder, but make even more clear that "Faith IS necessary for Salvation" and is the answer to the OP.

PS. IT was Ron Rhodes where I got all of the quotes from:
I actaully have these and others but since I am at work (and allowed to be on the internet playing around - securty guard for turkeys-) I do not have immediate access to my files and lists. Though this one is pretty close to what I have as well.
Here is His wed link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
 
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AVBunyan

New Member
Amy.G said:
These scriptures are talking about our faith in Christ. Not the faith of Christ.
The verse says "faith of" - this is Christ's faith. All new versions change the "of" (Christ's) to "in" (man's) - Take your pick - I will trust Chris't faith over mine - Plus only God can justify - man cannot justify himself.

God bless
 

Allan

Active Member
Your statement AVB make NO sense. Christ has faith...Do you understand what faith is and how it works. Christ doesn't have 'faith' in Himself anymore than God has 'faith' in Himself. That is the same thing the Word of Faith movement states almost verbatum. ei. Kenneth Copeland... Just as God created the Universe with faith and Jesus performed His miracles by faith... There is no scripture that EVER speaks of us having Christs 'faith' for He IS our Faith and the very object of that Faith. We trust in Him, not in His faith.

If you would like we can go much deeper and dig into the text but sufice to say you are unstable ground here and about to fall in.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
I agree with you Allan, I never have believed that it was Christ who had the faith but being it was "faith in Christ" it is called Christ's faith. It takes faith to please God, faith from us to believe in Him.
 

AVBunyan

New Member
Allan said:
Your statement AVB make NO sense. Christ has faith...Do you understand what faith is and how it works.
What does the verse say – not what you think it means?
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
Question…
Whose faith is it in the verse - yours or Christ’s?
I didn’t say try to understand it just whose faith is it?

According to the verse below – who justifies?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
So then – according to the above verse can your faith justify?

Just trying to be a blessing here – trying to shift the work from you to Christ where the security is found.

God bless
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
AVB, "of" is not even in the original texts. Here are some transaltions of that same verse:

Gal 2:16
(ALT) having known that a person is not justified [or, declared righteous] by works of [the] Law but by means of faith in Jesus Christ, we also believed in Christ Jesus, so that we shall be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of [the] Law, because no flesh [at] all will be justified by works of [the] Law!

(ASV) yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(BBE) Being conscious that a man does not get righteousness by the works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we had faith in Christ Jesus, so that we might get righteousness by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law will no flesh get righteousness.

(CEV) But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.


(EMTV) knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; because no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law.

(ESV) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

(GNB) Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires.

(GW) Yet, we know that people don't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards, but only by believing in Jesus Christ. So we also believed in Jesus Christ in order to receive God's approval by faith in Christ and not because of our own efforts. People won't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards.

(HCSB) yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

(ISV) yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law, for no human being will be justified by the works of the law.

(LITV) knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2
(LXX)

(MKJV) knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

(MSG) We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping but only through personal faith in Jesus Christ. How do we know? We tried it--and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! Convinced that no human being can please God by self-improvement, we believed in Jesus as the Messiah so that we might be set right before God by trusting in the Messiah, not by trying to be good.

(Murdock) because we know that a man is not made just by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus the Messiah; even we have believed in Jesus the Messiah, in order to be made just by faith in the Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for, by the deeds of the law, no flesh is made just.

(RV) yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, save through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

AVBunyan

New Member
webdog said:
AVB, "of" is not even in the original texts. Here are some transaltions of that same verse:
Never intended this to be a textual issue but let's cover it.

The originals are gone so we cannot verify and this is not the issue anyway.
I understand every new version says "in" for these texts are not the same text the KJV is based on.

The real issue is what I already asked in my previous posts:

Is your faith able to justify you or not?

This is the issue - scriptural justification.

Again, only God justifieth. According to the text Christ's faith does the justifying.

Now Webdog - are you telling me that your faith can justify you?
Please answer - a simple yes or on will suffice - Thanks

God bless
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Trust in Jesus

Our faith in the finished work of Christ is what saves us.

We who believe and have faith in Jesus knows it is Jesus work that justifies us.

We are saved by grace, because the wages of our sin is death, so we are justified by the work of Jesus.

For us to be justified on our own we would have to die. That is not salvation but death.

So we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
 
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