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Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 12, 2006.

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  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Correct :thumbs:
     
    #61 Amy.G, Nov 16, 2006
  2. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    This notion is complete wrong however.

    The fact remains that it is necessary to believe in order to be saved; however, those who do not have faith are not condemned for unbelief, they stand condemn already because of sin and the fact that they do not believe is merely a statement toward their inability to receive benefit of the atonement and therefore they have no legal case to make on their own behalf.
     
    #62 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'm sorry, but it is your view I find to be incorrect. Christ died once for all. Either the atonement covers all, or it doesn't. It takes some serious twisting of Scripture to state it doesn't.

    "...but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

    Scripture is very clear on this...because he has not believed, he is condemned. This is the unfogiveable sin.
     
    #63 webdog, Nov 16, 2006
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I'm wrong to say that you must believe in order to be saved? Jesus said if you believe, you will be saved. If you don't you are condemned already. It seems simple to me. If you think I'm wrong maybe you should rethink your own theology. Is this what you tell the members of the church you pastor?
     
    #64 Amy.G, Nov 16, 2006
  5. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    You are not wrong for believing that you must have faith to be saved. You are wrong IF you believe that God is required to give everyone a chance to believe before he sends them to hell. You are wrong IF you think that God sends people to hell based on their unwillingness to believe the Gospel.

    Amy I have made it very clear that I believe faith is necessary for salvation.

    Where I disagree with your view is where you suppose that God is morally obligated to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel. The plain truth is that with or without the opportunity to hear the gospel everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and there is no one that is righteous. Therefore each individual is held accountable for not fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law.

    As a matter of clarification, the fact that someone does not believe can mean two things. Either they have never heard the Gospel and they do not believe what they have not heard or they have rejected the gospel. In either case their failure to believe is not what sends them to hell. It is their sinful condition that separates them from God for all eternity. Those who believe are not any different from those who do not believe in terms of their own merit. No one deserves anything but hell and it is by grace that anyone is spared.
     
    #65 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Not catholic in the sense of the Roman Catholic church, but catholic in the sense of universal, or not partial, or something like that. Without examining the context I can't really make a judgment as to exactly which of the particular shades of meaning of the word catholic he is using.
     
    #66 russell55, Nov 16, 2006
  7. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    webdog I have made it plain that we are are not debating limited atonement per se. We are debating the application of the atonement. You can be a general atonement theologian and believe that the atonement is available but not automatic. If faith is necessary for salvation then the application of the atonement is limited, whether or not you believe in a general or limited view of atonement.
     
    #67 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  8. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

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    Then we in effect agree. Sorry I misunderstood, Amy. Blessings.
     
    #68 Joshua Rhodes, Nov 16, 2006
  9. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    Josh, I want to make sure I understand what you are agreeing to because Amy has made her point clear.

    Are you agreeing that only those who have had a presentation of the gospel and reject it go to hell?

    Because suggesting that only those who reject Christ infers that they must first know of Christ and the gospel in order to reject him. There have been hundreds of millions of people throughout history since Christ who never heard his name. Based on what you previously stated would not those be condemned for their sin and according to John 3:18 stand condemned already?
     
    #69 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You can't separate the atonement from belief.
    Jesus died for all the world (John 3:16)
    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:1,2)
    The Great Commission is given to go to all the world.
    The command to believe is given to all the world.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    --He that believeth not shall be damned.
    "Believeth not" refers to all the world, and infers that all the world will be given the chance to hear the gospel, if they are open to the message of the gospel.
    If you want a Biblical precept for this you will find one in the person of Cornelius, a gentile that wanted to be saved. But, no, in your theology it was impossible for it wasn't possible for him to seek after God.
    DHK
     
    #70 DHK, Nov 16, 2006
  11. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    If that is what you believe then you are a Universalist and everyone goes to heaven according to your view.
     
    #71 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  12. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

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    Belief and Faith in Christ are vital to salvation. To my simple mind, this is cut and dried. Those who do not believe, even if they have not heard, are lost. The fault lies to US to tell them and reach them. I believe that those we have opportunity to witness and share with and don't will be ours to answer for. But that doesn't change the fact that if they die without the Lord, they will die without salvation. The Word is clear... whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Anyone who doesn't is separated.
     
    #72 Joshua Rhodes, Nov 16, 2006
  13. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    You forgot Jonah and Ninevah, for one.
     
    #73 LadyEagle, Nov 16, 2006
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I don't see how you get that from what DHK said. A person still has to believe to be saved. Not everyone will be saved. I think that is what all of us agree on.
     
    #74 Amy.G, Nov 16, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Job 22:

    "7": I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.

    "8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

    "9": Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

    Who preached to Abel?

    Genesis 4


    "4": And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
     
    #75 Brother Bob, Nov 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2006
  16. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    DHK said that you cannot separate belief from the atonement. He further argued that Christ is propitiation for everyone at all times. Therefore if you cannot separate belief from the atonement and the atonement is made for all people then according to his view all people will be saved.

    Now I am not suggesting that you believe that but that is what his view inevitably leads to as a conclusion.
     
    #76 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Bob I agree with you. I have also used Abraham as an example. Who preached to him? I believe that God expects us to use what amount of light we are given. It may be only a speck or it may be a flood. But, I think we are responsible for what we've been given. Now, I will freely admit that I may be wrong because I'm still learning, but I base my belief on examples in the Bible (Job, Noah, Abraham, Abel among many), Romans 1:20 and the character of God.
    I would also like to say that I do not question God's will and authority. I just want to understand the scriptures.
     
    #77 Amy.G, Nov 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2006
  18. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    In the OT God spoke directly to whom ever wished. God speaking directly to someone today is done through the preaching of the gospel. Read Romans 10 Amy.
    Do you not see the sequence that is required for saving faith? The gospel is indispensable for salvation. Moreover, Amy you kept referring to the light that we have but each of us does not have the light necessary for saving faith, if we did there would not be a need for someone to preach the gospel. But there clearly is the need and we see in the above passage that they cannot call on him in whom they have not believed... moreover they cannot believe in him of whom they have never heard. So that John 3:18, states:

    So if they have not heard they cannot believe and if they do not believe they cannot be saved.
     
    #78 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    What that does not say is they will never hear.
     
    #79 webdog, Nov 16, 2006
  20. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    True but that is where I tend to agree with what Charles Hodge wrote as I paraphrased:

     
    #80 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 16, 2006
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