Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[Amy.G]

Good points Joshua.

But I think what she meant was that no one goes to Hell unless they have rejected Christ and THUS deserves to go there. I think her whole deserves hinges on the believe issue and if they will not believe they deserve their choice.

Correct :thumbs:

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Correct :thumbs:

This notion is complete wrong however.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The fact remains that it is necessary to believe in order to be saved; however, those who do not have faith are not condemned for unbelief, they stand condemn already because of sin and the fact that they do not believe is merely a statement toward their inability to receive benefit of the atonement and therefore they have no legal case to make on their own behalf.

 

[webdog]

This notion is complete wrong however.



The fact remains that it is necessary to believe in order to be saved; however, those who do not have faith are not condemned for unbelief, they stand condemn already because of sin and the fact that they do not believe is merely a statement toward their inability to receive benefit of the atonement and therefore they have no legal case to make on their own behalf.

I'm sorry, but it is your view I find to be incorrect. Christ died once for all. Either the atonement covers all, or it doesn't. It takes some serious twisting of Scripture to state it doesn't.

"...but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Scripture is very clear on this...because he has not believed, he is condemned. This is the unfogiveable sin.

 

[Amy.G]

This notion is complete wrong however

I'm wrong to say that you must believe in order to be saved? Jesus said if you believe, you will be saved. If you don't you are condemned already. It seems simple to me. If you think I'm wrong maybe you should rethink your own theology. Is this what you tell the members of the church you pastor?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I'm wrong to say that you must believe in order to be saved? Jesus said if you believe, you will be saved. If you don't you are condemned already. It seems simple to me. If you think I'm wrong maybe you should rethink your own theology. Is this what you tell the members of the church you pastor?

You are not wrong for believing that you must have faith to be saved. You are wrong IF you believe that God is required to give everyone a chance to believe before he sends them to hell. You are wrong IF you think that God sends people to hell based on their unwillingness to believe the Gospel.

Amy I have made it very clear that I believe faith is necessary for salvation.

Where I disagree with your view is where you suppose that God is morally obligated to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel. The plain truth is that with or without the opportunity to hear the gospel everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and there is no one that is righteous. Therefore each individual is held accountable for not fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law.

As a matter of clarification, the fact that someone does not believe can mean two things. Either they have never heard the Gospel and they do not believe what they have not heard or they have rejected the gospel. In either case their failure to believe is not what sends them to hell. It is their sinful condition that separates them from God for all eternity. Those who believe are not any different from those who do not believe in terms of their own merit. No one deserves anything but hell and it is by grace that anyone is spared.

 

[russell55]

He isn't speaking that the Orthodox doctrine of Limited attonement is Catholic did he??

Not catholic in the sense of the Roman Catholic church, but catholic in the sense of universal, or not partial, or something like that. Without examining the context I can't really make a judgment as to exactly which of the particular shades of meaning of the word catholic he is using.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I'm sorry, but it is your view I find to be incorrect. Christ died once for all. Either the atonement covers all, or it doesn't. It takes some serious twisting of Scripture to state it doesn't.

"...but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Scripture is very clear on this...because he has not believed, he is condemned. This is the unfogiveable sin.

webdog I have made it plain that we are are not debating limited atonement per se. We are debating the application of the atonement. You can be a general atonement theologian and believe that the atonement is available but not automatic. If faith is necessary for salvation then the application of the atonement is limited, whether or not you believe in a general or limited view of atonement.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Correct :thumbs:

Then we in effect agree. Sorry I misunderstood, Amy. Blessings.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Then we in effect agree. Sorry I misunderstood, Amy. Blessings.

Josh, I want to make sure I understand what you are agreeing to because Amy has made her point clear.

Are you agreeing that only those who have had a presentation of the gospel and reject it go to hell?

Because suggesting that only those who reject Christ infers that they must first know of Christ and the gospel in order to reject him. There have been hundreds of millions of people throughout history since Christ who never heard his name. Based on what you previously stated would not those be condemned for their sin and according to John 3:18 stand condemned already?

 

[DHK]

webdog I have made it plain that we are are not debating limited atonement per se. We are debating the application of the atonement. You can be a general atonement theologian and believe that the atonement is available but not automatic. If faith is necessary for salvation then the application of the atonement is limited, whether or not you believe in a general or limited view of atonement.

You can't separate the atonement from belief.
Jesus died for all the world (John 3:16)
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:1,2)
The Great Commission is given to go to all the world.
The command to believe is given to all the world.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--He that believeth not shall be damned.
"Believeth not" refers to all the world, and infers that all the world will be given the chance to hear the gospel, if they are open to the message of the gospel.
If you want a Biblical precept for this you will find one in the person of Cornelius, a gentile that wanted to be saved. But, no, in your theology it was impossible for it wasn't possible for him to seek after God.
DHK

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

You can't separate the atonement from belief.
Jesus died for all the world (John 3:16)
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:1,2)
....

If that is what you believe then you are a Universalist and everyone goes to heaven according to your view.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Josh, I want to make sure I understand what you are agreeing to because Amy has made her point clear.

Are you agreeing that only those who have had a presentation of the gospel and reject it go to hell?

Because suggesting that only those who reject Christ infers that they must first know of Christ and the gospel in order to reject him. There have been hundreds of millions of people throughout history since Christ who never heard his name. Based on what you previously stated would not those be condemned for their sin and according to John 3:18 stand condemned already?

Belief and Faith in Christ are vital to salvation. To my simple mind, this is cut and dried. Those who do not believe, even if they have not heard, are lost. The fault lies to US to tell them and reach them. I believe that those we have opportunity to witness and share with and don't will be ours to answer for. But that doesn't change the fact that if they die without the Lord, they will die without salvation. The Word is clear... whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Anyone who doesn't is separated.

 

[LadyEagle]

and no missionaries were sent to the heathen nations (unless you count Joseph and Daniel,,,,

You forgot Jonah and Ninevah, for one.

 

[Amy.G]

If that is what you believe then you are a Universalist and everyone goes to heaven according to your view.

I don't see how you get that from what DHK said. A person still has to believe to be saved. Not everyone will be saved. I think that is what all of us agree on.

 

[Brother Bob]

Job 22:

"7": I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.

"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

"9": Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

Who preached to Abel?

Genesis 4


"4": And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I don't see how you get that from what DHK said. A person still has to believe to be saved. Not everyone will be saved. I think that is what all of us agree on.

DHK said that you cannot separate belief from the atonement. He further argued that Christ is propitiation for everyone at all times. Therefore if you cannot separate belief from the atonement and the atonement is made for all people then according to his view all people will be saved.

Now I am not suggesting that you believe that but that is what his view inevitably leads to as a conclusion.

 

[Amy.G]

Job 22:

"7": I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.

"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

"9": Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

Who preached to Abel?

Genesis 4


"4": And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Bob I agree with you. I have also used Abraham as an example. Who preached to him? I believe that God expects us to use what amount of light we are given. It may be only a speck or it may be a flood. But, I think we are responsible for what we've been given. Now, I will freely admit that I may be wrong because I'm still learning, but I base my belief on examples in the Bible (Job, Noah, Abraham, Abel among many), Romans 1:20 and the character of God.
I would also like to say that I do not question God's will and authority. I just want to understand the scriptures.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Bob I agree with you. I have also used Abraham as an example. Who preached to him? I believe that God expects us to use what amount of light we are given. It may be only a speck or it may be a flood. But, I think we are responsible for what we've been given. Now, I will freely admit that I may be wrong because I'm still learning, but I base my belief on examples in the Bible (Job, Noah, Abraham, Abel among many), Romans 1:20 and the character of God.

In the OT God spoke directly to whom ever wished. God speaking directly to someone today is done through the preaching of the gospel. Read Romans 10 Amy.

14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent?

Do you not see the sequence that is required for saving faith? The gospel is indispensable for salvation. Moreover, Amy you kept referring to the light that we have but each of us does not have the light necessary for saving faith, if we did there would not be a need for someone to preach the gospel. But there clearly is the need and we see in the above passage that they cannot call on him in whom they have not believed... moreover they cannot believe in him of whom they have never heard. So that John 3:18, states:

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So if they have not heard they cannot believe and if they do not believe they cannot be saved.

 

[webdog]

Quote:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So if they have not heard they cannot believe and if they do not believe they cannot be saved.

What that does not say is they will never hear.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

What that does not say is they will never hear.

True but that is where I tend to agree with what Charles Hodge wrote as I paraphrased:

The atonement though specifically offered to a special group known as the elect was not transferred in eternity past. They are not born in a justified state because they are by nature or birth the children of wrath even as others. That is to say that there is not an eternal justification of the elect. They are not different from the rest of the lost in as much as they are born into sin and are in need of redemption in order to be saved.

Therefore they remain in this state of exposure until they believe and should they die (unless in infancy) before they believe they would inevitably perish even though the satisfaction of Christ was sufficient to atone for their sins. However, in this case, not having believed the gospel they would not receive benefit of the atonement.