Is God a Liar?

[utilyan]

Read all of 1 John it echoes two groups of people those who are saved and those who reject God throughout the whole epistle.

The believer believes the Testimony.

The unbeliever does not believe the testimony says GOD is a LIAR. ---> the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar


What is the testimony? --->11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


So what is the UNBELIEVER not believing? The Testimony.

What does the unbeliever not believe? that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The unbeliever does not believe the TRUTH, That God has given him eternal life and this life is in his son.

The unbeliever is making a liar--->the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,


A Calvinist would have to claim the unbeliever is telling the TRUTH.

If a unbeliever does not believe the testimony that God has given him eternal life in his son is this TRUE OR FALSE?

Scripture clearly says it is believing a LIE when you don't believe Jesus Christ died for you.

1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Read all of 1 John it echoes two groups of people those who are saved and those who reject God throughout the whole epistle.

The believer believes the Testimony.

The unbeliever does not believe the testimony says GOD is a LIAR. ---> the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar


What is the testimony? --->11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


So what is the UNBELIEVER not believing? The Testimony.

What does the unbeliever not believe? that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The unbeliever does not believe the TRUTH, That God has given him eternal life and this life is in his son.

The unbeliever is making a liar--->the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,


A Calvinist would have to claim the unbeliever is telling the TRUTH.

If a unbeliever does not believe the testimony that God has given him eternal life in his son is this TRUE OR FALSE?

Scripture clearly says it is believing a LIE when you don't believe Jesus Christ died for you.

1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

I like your explanation. This is one of enumerable passages in the bible that line up with the fact God desires that none perish.

 

[Dave G]

I like your explanation. This is one of enumerable passages in the bible that line up with the fact God desires that none perish.

Except his explanation doesn't add up, from where I'm standing.
Read it in the AV, Steven:

" He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." ( 1 John 5:10-12 ).

Here's what I see at first glance:

10) He that believes on the Son has the witness in himself...the Holy Spirit ( see Romans 8:9-10 ).
He that does not believe God has made him ( "him" who? ) a liar, because ( Middle English: from the phrase by cause, influenced by Old French par cause de ‘by reason of’. ) he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
11) This is the record...that God has given to...whom? Believers...eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12) He that has the Son has life, he that doesn't, doesn't.

With that said, here's the first problem that I come to when I examine things closer, especially in the light of other Scritpures...
No one can make God, who cannot lie ( Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18 ) into a liar, except in their own minds.

Secondly,

Look at the passage real close...
To me, it's not saying that "he that doesn't believe God has made God a liar";
It's saying that "he that doesn't believe God has made himself a liar".

"He that does not believe God has made him ( Strong's G846, " αὐτός", transliterated into the English as, " autos" and meaning:

1. himself, herself, themselves, itself
2. he, she, it
3. the same )

Source: G846 - autos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

...a liar, because ( by reason of ) he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son."

 

[Dave G]

@Steven Yeadon :

The way I see it, the book of 1 John is written to all professing believers ( both "wheat" and "tare" ), and addresses them as a whole.
It is telling them many important truths, such as the evidences that must be present for one to consider themselves to be a born again child of God.

For example:

" In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." ( 1 John 3:10 )
" If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." ( 1 John 4:20-21 ).

Right there we have a contrast...
There are liars within the professing body of Christ, Steven.
False teachers and false brethren are a reality:

" Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." ( 1 John 2:18-19 ).

They start out with true believers, but then they fall away:

" But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." ( 2 Peter 2:22 ).

How do we know who they are?
By their fruits ( Galatians 5:19-24 ) and by this:

" Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." ( 1 John 2:15 ).



Therefore, the passage in question ( 1 John 5:10-12 ) is contrasting the reality between someone who believes the record of God's Son, and one who does not.
One who has the Witness in himself, and one that makes himself a liar ( not God ) and shows that he does not have the Witness in himself...
One who professes Christ, but in works denies Him ( Titus 1:16 ).

Whether or not "Limited Atonement" ( "Particular Redemption" ) is true, I'm of the belief that the OP has a problem right from the start.
You may wish to check the reasoning again, because it seems to me that he has made an argument off a faulty perception of the passage.
My suggestion?
Rectify that, and perhaps go on from there.


May God bless you greatly in your ongoing studies, Steven.

 

[37818]

. . . one that makes himself a liar ( not God ) . . .

I looked carefully at this interpreation. Do you know anyone besides yourself that holds that understanding?
Anyone who does not believe what God actaully said is effectively making God out to be a liar. And we agree that God cannot lie.
1 John 5:10.

 

[37818]

. . . ..with the fact God desires that none perish.

Ezekiel 18:32 , "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: . . ."
Revelation 14:10-11, ". . . tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: . . ."

 

[Dave G]

I looked carefully at this interpreation. Do you know anyone besides yourself that holds that understanding?

No I do not.
But for some reason when I looked at it, it just hit me yesterday to do so.

That's when I noticed that the "him" could be read two different ways.
That's also when I put together all the other pieces and asked myself, "who are false brethren and false teachers"?

They are liars at heart, because their hearts have never been changed by God.

According to the words of the Lord in John 8:43-47, the Pharisees were of their father the devil ( who was a liar from the beginning ), and the lusts of their father they will do.
Therefore and by extension, anyone who professes to know God but in works they deny Him ( Titus 1:16 ) and does not have the Holy Spirit in them, is of one group ( the children of the devil, see 1 John 3:10 as well as the "goats", see Matthew 25:31-46 ), while those that do are the children of God.
If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His ( Romans 8:9 ).

There is no "in-between" when it comes to us as men, according to Scripture;
There are believers and there are unbelievers.
There people who love and make lies ( Revelation 22:15 ), and people who do not.

To me, it's all very cut and dried, at least at the heart level.

Anyone who does not believe what God actually said is effectively making God out to be a liar.

With respect to doing that in our minds, I agree.
But according to His very words, He is not.
To me, there is no "effectively", even though to us, there may be.

However, I am willing to admit that I could be wrong on my examination of the passage in question with regard to "him", and if I should be corrected by Scripture, I will retract the main point in my posts above.

Regardless, I don't see the OP as being edifying in any way ( especially in its tone );
Rather, I see it as an attempt by the author to disparage people, which to me, he shouldn't be doing per Titus 3:2.
As believers, we all have troubles with our wicked flesh...

But we are to avoid such things, not to indulge them.

 

[Dave G]

So what is the UNBELIEVER not believing? The Testimony.

What does the unbeliever not believe? that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The unbeliever does not believe the TRUTH, That God has given him eternal life and this life is in his son.

Given your apparent hatred of all things "Calvinistic", utilyan, I'm reluctant to address your posts...
But in this instance I'd like to work a few things out, if you're willing.

Am I to understand that, according to you, the unbeliever is not believing that God has given to them eternal life?
I can see the argument from both directions, but to me, that gets kind of dicey and one side leads to universalism.


With respect,
it's as if you're placing all men into the group that God has not only sent His Son to die for ( which is the heart of the matter ), but you've just ( apparently ) made the argument that all men have eternal life.
Scripture tells us that only those who believe, do:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ).

Would you please clarify?

 

[Dave G]

@utilyan :
I'd like to address the OP more directly here...

Read all of 1 John it echoes two groups of people those who are saved and those who reject God throughout the whole epistle.

I agree, but I see a few more things there.

A Calvinist would have to claim the unbeliever is telling the TRUTH.

If a unbeliever does not believe the testimony that God has given him eternal life in his son is this TRUE OR FALSE?

Firstly,
I don't see anywhere in Scripture that unbelievers generally tell the truth, unless it gains them some sort of an advantage or when they are backed into a corner and cannot possibly get out.

Secondly,
I'd like to suggest that we stick to Scripture alone, instead of resorting to "armed camps" where one side is "Arminian" / "Molinist" / "Traditionalist" and the other are the "Calvinists", shall we?
I would prefer that, if you don't mind.


Respectfully,
I'm not a Roman Catholic who may or may not agree with the Canons of Trent, as to me, you have indicated that you are...
I'm someone who completely ignores all of it and reads the Bible to the exclusion of all other institutions and their teachings that call themselves "Christian".
That is where I am, and that is where I happen to believe that everyone who names the name of Christ should be.

With that said...
Following your argument, I see quite a few things that, to me, you're not taking into account:

1) Election.
2) What actually happened at the cross and for whom.
3) Whether what happened at the cross was "potential" or sure in both its language and its results.

Given that you don't seem to believe that God chooses sinners to salvation as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us;
and given that you don't seem to believe that only those who were foreknown by God will ever have the benefits of any of the rest of Romans 8:28-30;
and given that you don't agree that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 );
and given that you don't believe that no man can come to Christ except it were given to that man by God the Father to do so ( John 6:64-65 );
And finally, given that you do not believe that Christ will only give eternal life to those that were given to Him by God the Father ( John 17:2-3 )...

Are you saying that the person who does not believe the record that God gave of ( by or from ) His Son, not only has eternal life but is denying that record?

Similar to post # 8,
Would you please clarify where you are with respect to all men having the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 )?



Thank you for taking the time to address my replies, sir.

 

[utilyan]

"Following your argument, I see quite a few things that, to me, you're not taking into account:

1) Election."

Elect/ chosen for what? To do the dishes? Show the scriptural grounds. You have been indoctrinated to have election trigger the meaning of "elect on to salvation", without scripture stating so. Its a pillar of your faith not mine.

You can study the Greek and plenty of commentaries to give you the meaning of those passages about "making God a Liar".

Heres one,
Is John Calvin a Calvinist?

======
Here Calvin's commentary:

10. He that believeth not As the faithful possess this benefit, that they know themselves to be beyond the danger of erring, because they have God as their foundation; so he makes the ungodly to be guilty of extreme blasphemy, because they charge God with falsehood. Doubtless nothing is more valued by God than his own truth, therefore no wrong more atrocious can be done to him, than to rob him of this honor. Then in order to induce us to believe, he takes an argument from the opposite side; for if to make God a liar be a horrible and execrable impiety, because then what especially belongs to him is taken away, who would not dread to withhold faith from the gospel, in which God would have himself to be counted singularly true and faithful? This ought to be carefully observed.

Some wonder why God commends faith so much, why unbelief is so severely condemned. But the glory of God is implicated in this; for since he designed to shew a special instance of his truth in the gospel, all they who reject Christ there offered to them, leave nothing to him. Therefore, though we may grant that a man in other parts of his life is like an angel, yet his sanctity is diabolical as long as he rejects Christ. Thus we see some under the Papacy vastly pleased with the mere mask of sanctity, while they still most obstinately resist the gospel. Let us then understand, that it is the beginning of true religion, obediently to embrace this doctrine, which he has so strongly confirmed by his testimony.
========


"But the glory of God is implicated in this; for since he designed to shew a special instance of his truth in the gospel, all they who reject Christ there offered to them, leave nothing to him."


The LIE charged to God. Is not believing. Rejecting CHRIST offered to them.

 

[Dave G]

Elect/ chosen for what? To do the dishes? Show the scriptural grounds.

Psalms 65:4.
John 6:37-47.
John 6:64-65.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:26.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:28-30.
Romans 9.
Romans 11:7-8.
Ephesians 1:4-6.
Ephesians 2:8-10.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
1 Peter 1:2-5.

 

[Dave G]

You have been indoctrinated to have election trigger the meaning of "elect on to salvation", without scripture stating so. Its a pillar of your faith not mine.

Indoctrinated by whom?
I was raised in Independent Baptist churches that still, to this day, teach the opposite.

But Scripture states it in plenty of places...
I gave some of them in the post above.

You can study the Greek and plenty of commentaries to give you the meaning of those passages about "making God a Liar".

I don't have any need of commentaries...
I have the word of God.

What more could a believer possibly need?

 

[Dave G]

Heres one,
Is John Calvin a Calvinist?

======
Here Calvin's commentary:

I never had any use for his explanations either.
Isn't God's word sufficient?

Can't I trust the Lord ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ) instead of men ( Psalms 118:8, Jeremiah 17:5-6 )?

The LIE charged to God. Is not believing. Rejecting CHRIST offered to them.

The Gospel is not an "offer" and never has been, utilyan.
Where did you get the idea that it was any such thing?

It's a promise made to "whosoever believeth".

Do you believe?
If so, then count yourself as having been found in the grace of God, and rejoice...
For your sins have been forgiven for His name's sake.

 

[utilyan]

I never had any use for his explanations either.
Isn't God's word sufficient?

Can't I trust the Lord ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ) instead of men ( Psalms 118:8, Jeremiah 17:5-6 )?

The Gospel is not an "offer" and never has been, utilyan.
Where did you get the idea that it was any such thing?

It's a promise made to "whosoever believeth".

Do you believe?
If so, then count yourself as having been found in the grace of God, and rejoice...
For your sins have been forgiven for His name's sake.

"The Gospel is not an "offer" and never has been, utilyan.
Where did you get the idea that it was any such thing?"

I'm quoting Calvin " all they who reject Christ there offered to them"

How about GILL?

"he that believeth not God; does not receive his testimony concerning his Son: the Alexandrian copy, and two of Stephens's, and the Vulgate Latin version read, "he that believeth not the Son"; and the Ethiopic version, his Son; and the Arabic version, "the Son of God"; and so is a direct antithesis to the phrase in the former clause of the verse:

hath made him a liar; not the Son, but God, as the Arabic version renders it, "hath made God himself a liar"; who is the God, of truth, and cannot lie; it is impossible he should; and as nothing can be, more contumelious and reproachful to the being and nature of God, so nothing can more fully expose and aggravate the sin of unbelief, with respect to Christ, as the Son of God:

because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son; at the times and places before observed."

"that God hath given to us eternal life; which is a life of glory and happiness hereafter;"



You just need to focus on the main question.

The unbeliever says to himself "I don't believe God has given us eternal life through his son", who rejects that Jesus Christ died for him, Is he telling the TRUTH or is he a LIAR?

 

[Dave G]

I'm quoting Calvin " all they who reject Christ there offered to them"

You may quote him all you wish...
I don't follow John Calvin, and I don't follow any teachings of any institution of men.
I'll stick with God's word.

Some call it, "Sola Scriptura".
I don't rely on Scripture plus tradition plus the edicts of any group of men ( Magisterium ), like many do.

How about GILL?

It seems that Gill and I agree on a great many things;
Still, I place no authority in men, other than what the Lord has given to them within the offices that they hold.

You just need to focus on the main question.

Respectfully,
I think your focus is rather limited, in the sense that not only do you not believe many of the Scriptures at their face value, you're asking a question that leaves those Scriptures and their declarations out of your consideration when you thought to ask the question.

The unbeliever says to himself "I don't believe God has given us eternal life through his son", who rejects that Jesus Christ died for him, Is he telling the TRUTH or is he a LIAR?

Again,
To me, it's an uninformed question.
If left to me, I would re-phrase it as, " The unbeliever says to himself, " I don't believe God has given to anyone eternal life through His Son" who rejects Christ as Lord over all, who came and died for sinners."

Therefore, in the context of the question above, he is he telling the truth when he does not believe the record, and trying to make God a liar...
That Christ is the Son of the living God, came in the flesh, was crucified for sinners and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

By default, the unbeliever is a liar because he is an unbeliever and denies the record that God gave of His Son.
The record I have just established above.

 

[Dave G]

@utilyan ,
In summary:

As useful as it may seem to you to present a question that I see as trying to back the "Calvinist" into a corner that they cannot get out of,
To me you're asking an uninformed question;
The premise is that God sent His Son to die for everyone...
Which He did not.

Only those who believe have received the atonement ( Romans 5:11 ).
Christ only saved His people from their sins ( Matthew 1:21 ).
Christ only gave His life for the sheep ( John 10:11 ).
Christ was only stricken for the transgressions of His people ( Isaiah 53:8 ).

"World" in John 3:16, to me, means "those called out of every tongue, tribe and nation".
"World" in 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, to me, means " those to whom God will not impute sin" ( see Romans 4:4-8 )...

In other words, the foundation of God determining who is saved is not "foreseen faith"...
It is election and His granting repentance and faith as gifts to His children.

It all had a specific purpose, and that purpose was not to condemn men for rejecting Christ as their Saviour, but as their Lord.
It also had another purpose...

For God to design His every action on the part of His elect, to ensure the maximum possibility of those very same sinners, who were saved by His grace and mercy alone ( Titus 3:5-7 ), of granting the Lord the fruit of their lips;
For making them realize that their salvation is completely of God and had nothing to do with any effort on their part.


May God bless you in your studies, sir, and may He someday reveal to you what He does to all those who truly seek Him from the heart:
That it is to Him and Him alone that the glory for saving anyone truly belongs.

 

[37818]

. . . I don't follow any teachings of any institution of men.
I'll stick with God's word.

When we use any translation or tranlsation aid we are in fact following the teachings of men as some level..

 

[utilyan]

You may quote him all you wish...
I don't follow John Calvin, and I don't follow any teachings of any institution of men.
I'll stick with God's word.

Some call it, "Sola Scriptura".
I don't rely on Scripture plus tradition plus the edicts of any group of men ( Magisterium ), like many do.

It seems that Gill and I agree on a great many things;
Still, I place no authority in men, other than what the Lord has given to them within the offices that they hold.

Respectfully,
I think your focus is rather limited, in the sense that not only do you not believe many of the Scriptures at their face value, you're asking a question that leaves those Scriptures and their declarations out of your consideration when you thought to ask the question.

Again,
To me, it's an uninformed question.
If left to me, I would re-phrase it as, " The unbeliever says to himself, " I don't believe God has given to anyone eternal life through His Son" who rejects Christ as Lord over all, who came and died for sinners."

Therefore, in the context of the question above, he is he telling the truth when he does not believe the record, and trying to make God a liar...
That Christ is the Son of the living God, came in the flesh, was crucified for sinners and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

By default, the unbeliever is a liar because he is an unbeliever and denies the record that God gave of His Son.
The record I have just established above.

Rewording doesn't help because the testimony summarized here is the same given to Nicodemus.

John 3

9Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

The point its about believing Jesus died for HIM. And its this same point where a person a person is damned for not believing.


Imagine you have this stranger next to me named BOB......You don't know a thing about him..... Do you Dave believe the testimony that Jesus died for him?

IF your answer is not flat out Yes then are you of the UNBELIEVER CATAGORY? You make God a LIAR? Your wording gymnastics is not helping you here.

The TESTIMONY is presented directly to the individual. Do you accept the belief that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior? No one comes to you to ask well do you accept Jesus as CHUCK's Lord and Savior. That is not what is happening

This is not going to work the with the Calvinist game who would insist they do not know the elect status of absolutely NNE.

 

[Dave G]

@utilyan:
These will be my final replies to you in this thread.

Rewording doesn't help because the testimony summarized here is the same given to Nicodemus.

The testimony given to Nicodemus is found in the preceding verses...
John 3:1-8.
It deals with being "born again" and that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life.

The point its about believing Jesus died for HIM.

No, it is not.
If you read the passage, it's about who has eternal life and who does not.

And its this same point where a person a person is damned for not believing.

Now that I've carefully looked at your point, it seems to me that you should also look at it again;
You're talking about who Jesus died for,
and the passage you're using doesn't talk about the atonement, but only the gift of eternal life.

I suggest looking at it more carefully.

 

[Dave G]

Imagine you have this stranger next to me named BOB......You don't know a thing about him..... Do you Dave believe the testimony that Jesus died for him?

That's not the testimony described in 1 John 5:11-13.
This is:

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." ( 1 John 5:7-12 ).

Taking verse 10 and using it to build a case against both election and the atonement isolates it from the rest of the passage;
To me, you're still thinking that the "Calvinist" is claiming that the unbeliever is telling the truth when they claim that Jesus died for them.
They are not.

Secondly, it's occurred to me that there are three ways a person could look at the "him" in verse 10...

1) He that does not believe God has made himself a liar.
2) He that does not believe God has made God a liar.
3) He that does not believe God has made the witness ( the Holy Spirit ) a liar.

All because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
The record ( or "testimony" as your translation has it ) that God has given to..."us" ( that's believers, not unbelievers )…. eternal life, and that life is "in" His Son.
As for who the "him" is, I'll tentatively go with item 1 for now, until the Lord shows me different.

To address your point:

I don't recognize that God sent His Son to die for everyone, making salvation a "potential" and entirely dependent upon who decides to believe and who does not.
To me, that viewpoint conditions election upon man's choice.
Again, I'm back to the foundation of "total depravity" / "total rebellion", because I see that man, apart from the new birth and given the choice, would choose our sin over casting ourselves on the mercy of the Lord.

Finally, your argument doesn't make sense to me in the light of the passage.
It's not referring to whom Christ died for...

It's referring to people having eternal life in Jesus Christ.