Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[kyredneck]

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

Charles Spurgeon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

OR, it makes my heart happy to be reading your posts again!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

Charles Spurgeon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

LOVE THAT.....LOVE IT! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

It takes the word of God for life to begin without that we are dead men, to reject His word is to reject life

Praise Jesus who's word is Spirit and life.

His word starts the wheel rolling, where faith, life and also the Spirit of God resides.

2 Peter 3:
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Jer 23

 

[convicted1]

Spurgeon gets right to the point:

"Only God can work this miracle, but mark you this, there never was a soul, yet, that truly believed in Christ, but at the same time it underwent the change called the new birth or regeneration. Christians have often been asked about which is first, faith or regeneration, belief in Christ or being born again. I will tell you, when you answer me this question—When a wheel moves, which spoke moves first? “Oh, they all start together!” you say. So these other things all start together, whether it is the hub of the wheel, which is regeneration, or the spokes of the wheel, which are faith, repentance, hope, love and so on—when the wheel moves, it all moves at once!" —"Despised Light Withdrawn"

Amen!! Salvation isn't "here a little", "there a little", etc. When one obtains salvation, they become regenerated, and when one becomes regenerated, they become saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them!

 

[convicted1]

If infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them!

Now this, I am in complete agreement with. God does not need a middle man(preacher) to reveal Himself to a lost person, He can do this on His own.

 

[psalms109:31]

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2spu0108.htm

"...If we had a god whose name was Moloch; if God were an arbitrary tyrant, without benevolence or grace, we could imagine some infants being cast into hell. But our God, who heareth the young ravens when they cry, certainly will find no delight in the shrieks and cries of infants cast away from his presence.

We read of God that he is so tender that he would not have the mouth of the ox muzzled when treading out the corn. He cares for the bird upon the nest, and would not have the mother bird killed while sitting upon its nest with its little ones. He made ordinances and commands even to protect irrational creatures.

Shall we believe with such universal goodness as his, that he would cast away the infant soul? I say it would be so contrary to all that we have ever read or ever believed of him, that our faith would stagger before a revelation which should display a fact so singularly exceptional to the tenor of his other deeds.

We have learned humbly to submit our judgements to his will, and we dare not criticise or accuse the Lord of all. He is just; let him do as he may! Whatever he reveals we will accept! But he never has, and I think he never will, require of us so desperate a stretch of faith as to see goodness in the eternal misery of an infant cast into hell.

You remember when Jonah – petulant, quick-tempered Jonah – would have Nineveh perish, God gave as the reason why Nineveh should not be destroyed, that there were more than six-score thousand infants – persons who knew not their right hand from their left. If he spared Nineveh that their mortal life might be spared, do we think that their immortal souls shall be needlessly cast away?

Again, we think that eternal banishment of those dying in infancy would be utterly inconsistent with the known character of our Lord Jesus Christ. When his disciples put away the little children whom their anxious mothers brought to him, Jesus said, ‘Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’ By this he taught, as John Newton very properly says, that such children made up a very great part of the kingdom of Heaven.

When we consider that upon the best statistics it is calculated that more than one third of the human race die in infancy, and probably half the population of the world, if we take into calculation those districts where infanticide prevails, the saying of the Saviour derives great force indeed – ‘of such is the kingdom of heaven’.

If some remind me that the kingdom of Heaven means the dispensation of grace on earth, I answer, yes, it does, and it means the same dispensation in Heaven too. Our Lord’s words prove that infants compose a great part of his family, and that he has a love and amiableness towards the little ones.

When they shouted in the temple, ‘Hosanna!’ did he rebuke them? On the contrary he rejoiced in their shouts. Then he declared: ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise.’ And does not that text seem to say that in Heaven there shall be perfect praise rendered to God by multitudes who were here on earth – your little ones suddenly snatched away to Heaven? ..."
C. H Spurgeon

They are saved the same way we are saved by grace through faith, Jesus said the kingdom was made for such as them. We should never come to believe or trust in nothing but the words of Jesus to save us and our infants

 

[OldRegular]

If infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them!

God through His Grace will bring all His elect to Salvation and that is the truth.

 

[Winman]

If infants, the feeble minded, and the heathen must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then there is no hope for them!

Only if you believe God holds infants and the mentally handicapped accountable. I believe there is much scripture that shows he does not such as Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, and Jon 4:11...

The heathen are a different matter, Romans 1 says that God has shown himself to all men and that they are without excuse. I do not know how God deals with those who have never heard the gospel, but I know God is just.

 

[Winman]

And Spurgeon was wrong if he believed a man must be regenerated, born again to have the ability to believe, the scriptures NEVER say that, not once.

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

Without the word of God, no man could believe in Jesus, you cannot believe what you do not know. But this knowledge is not life, this knowledge enables a person to believe.

But you must believe to have life. You cannot have spiritual life while you remain in your sins. We are justified or forgiven by faith, therefore you must first believe and have your sins forgiven before you can be made spiritually alive. This is exactly what Jn 1:12 says, to those that receive Jesus and believe on his name, to them (believers) gave he power to BECOME (afterward) the sons of God.

All scripture supports that faith precedes regeneration. There is ZERO scripture that supports regeneration preceding faith.

 

[psalms109:31]

We should also know that knowledge that comes from faith through the words of Jesus say's not only that those who believe (trust) in Jesus shall be saved, but also those who do not will continue to condemnation.

So God through the words of Jesus has not only placed before us life, but also death, so believe (trust) in Jesus and you shall live.

 

[OldRegular]

And Spurgeon was wrong if he believed a man must be regenerated, born again to have the ability to believe, the scriptures NEVER say that, not once.

So now not only is Scripture wrong but Spurgeon is wrong. Sad Winman, very sad!

 

[psalms109:31]

And Spurgeon was wrong if he believed a man must be regenerated, born again to have the ability to believe, the scriptures NEVER say that, not once.

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

Without the word of God, no man could believe in Jesus, you cannot believe what you do not know. But this knowledge is not life, this knowledge enables a person to believe.

But you must believe to have life. You cannot have spiritual life while you remain in your sins. We are justified or forgiven by faith, therefore you must first believe and have your sins forgiven before you can be made spiritually alive. This is exactly what Jn 1:12 says, to those that receive Jesus and believe on his name, to them (believers) gave he power to BECOME (afterward) the sons of God.

All scripture supports that faith precedes regeneration. There is ZERO scripture that supports regeneration preceding faith.

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

Charles Spurgeon

I do not think Spurgeon would try to be inconsistent with himself, but he rather be inconsistent with himself than with the scripture.

 

[Winman]

We should also know that knowledge that comes from faith through the words of Jesus say's not only that those who believe (trust) in Jesus shall be saved, but also those who do not will continue to condemnation.

So God through the words of Jesus has not only placed before us life, but also death, so believe (trust) in Jesus and you shall live.

Knowledge does not come through faith, knowledge precedes and enables faith. You cannot believe what you do not know.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't believe in Jesus if you have never heard of him, therefore knowledge precedes faith.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You have to listen to God and learn from him before you can come (believe) to Jesus.

God provides knowledge through his word, this knowledge enables us to believe. But knowledge is not regeneration, a person can be enlightened, and yet not believe.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You can be enlightened by God's word and understand you are a sinner and that Jesus died for you, but fall away in unbelief. Not a wise thing to do.

 

[psalms109:31]

Knowledge does not come through faith, knowledge precedes and enables faith. You cannot believe what you do not know.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't believe in Jesus if you have never heard of him, therefore knowledge precedes faith.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You have to listen to God and learn from him before you can come (believe) to Jesus.

God provides knowledge through his word, this knowledge enables us to believe. But knowledge is not regeneration, a person can be enlightened, and yet not believe.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You can be enlightened by God's word and understand you are a sinner and that Jesus died for you, but fall away in unbelief. Not a wise thing to do.

Me and you may have a different definition of faith, but to me faith is a noun a object of my belief. To believe or trust is a verb an action that I do with faith that is an object like the word of God or the finished work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

Charles Spurgeon

I do not think Spurgeon would try to be inconsistent with himself, but he rather be inconsistent with himself than with the scripture.

Spurgeon was often inconsistent. He is correct here, faith is the medicine we must take to be healed (regenerated).

Jn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus offers every man living water. But we must drink (believe) this water before it will help us. The water must be "in us" to heal us.

You could be dying of thirst and someone gives you a big glass of water. It will not help you unless you drink it.

We must drink (believe) to receive the Spirit (water) that will regenerate us.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The scriptures ALWAYS say a person must first believe to receive the Spirit and be made alive.

 

[psalms109:31]

Also

Hebrews 11
Faith in Action
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

[psalms109:31]

Spurgeon was often inconsistent. He is correct here, faith is the medicine we must take to be healed (regenerated).

Jn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus offers every man living water. But we must drink (believe) this water before it will help us. The water must be "in us" to heal us.

You could be dying of thirst and someone gives you a big glass of water. It will not help you unless you drink it.

We must drink (believe) to receive the Spirit (water) that will regenerate us.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The scriptures ALWAYS say a person must first believe to receive the Spirit and be made alive.

Spurgeon was very straight forward in what he believed there, you can't believe unless you have an object to believe in which scripture tells us we have not seen.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Winman]

Me and you may have a different definition of faith, but to me faith is a noun a object of my belief. To believe or trust is a verb an action that I do with faith that is an object like the word of God or the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Faith is a firm conviction of a truth. But saving faith is putting it into action, actually trusting or committing ourselves to Jesus. It is casting ourselves upon him and completely depending on him alone to save us. It is like jumping out of an airplane and depending on the parachute to get you down safely. But you would not jump unless you first had faith in the parachute.

Jesus often used action words to describe saving faith. It is "coming" to him, it is "drinking" the water (Holy Spirit) he offers. It is "asking", it is "calling" on him.

If you really believe in Jesus you will not just sit there, you will come to him in your heart and call upon him, committing your soul into his hands. This is saving faith, trust.

It is like jumping out of a burning building, and depending on firemen below who have promised to catch you with a net. But you would not jump unless you had some faith.

It is casting yourself on Jesus. Spurgeon got that right.

 

[psalms109:31]

See we don't see it the same to me faith a noun not a verb an action from me is the firemen that he will do the job that he is here to do.

I do not see him saving me but i have to trust (a verb an action from me) in him, that he will do what he is there to do.