Is God in CONTROL of the consequences of the Fall?

[Skandelon]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is God not in control of anything?

 

[Skandelon]

Is God not in control of anything?

Good question, you tell me. Did God decide that all men would be born totally depraved as a result of the fall, or was that beyond his control?

 

[Van]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

1) The Fall did not result in the total loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation. Jesus had to speak in parables to preclude some of the fallen from responding and being healed.

2) Whatever the consequence of the Fall, it is God who imposes it and thus chose to impose it. Otherwise the consequence of sin would be more powerful than God. That dog will not hunt.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

Yep. God is sovereign over the whole thing.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good question, you tell me. Did God decide that all men would be born totally depraved as a result of the fall, or was that beyond his control?

All that happened was either directly determined by the Lord, or permitted by him to occur, eith er way though, he remained full sovereign over the results of the fall, and He determined to save some of us wicked and depraived sinners unto his glory!

You claimed was a calvinist at one time, did you reject that due to the question of it not seeming fair how God operated in salvation, not the one you would have chosen to do it?

 

[The Biblicist]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

This question fails to consider finer points. In general God is Sovereign over all and that Soveriegnty is expressed either by permission in the case of evil or by delight as in the case of righteousness.

In regard to the fall there are primary and immediate causes. In regard to conseqences of sin the rule of "whatsoever a man sowth that shall he also reap" or natural consequences come into play.

God did not design His righteousness because He IS righteous and therefore God did not design sin as sin IS the absence of righteousness.

God could not design another God equal to Himself and therefore all that God could create are DEPENDENT beings as no other Being could be the source of life, self-sustaining, and immutable. Thus God did not design death as death IS separation from God which is not a matter of design but a matter of STATE or CONDITION without God. God's design of free will necessarily gave permission for the wrong decision which by definition is contrary to the revealed will of God which is by nature based upon His own righteousness and thus not a matter of design but a matter of NATURE that is immutable.

God certainly designed hell and gehenna as PLACES for evil beings.

 

[Skandelon]

This question fails to consider finer points. In general God is Sovereign over all and that Soveriegnty is expressed either by permission in the case of evil or by delight as in the case of righteousness.

In regard to the fall there are primary and immediate causes. In regard to conseqences of sin the rule of "whatsoever a man sowth that shall he also reap" or natural consequences come into play.

God did not design His righteousness because He IS righteous and therefore God did not design sin as sin IS the absence of righteousness.

God could not design another God equal to Himself and therefore all that God could create are DEPENDENT beings as no other Being could be the source of life, self-sustaining, and immutable. Thus God did not design death as death IS separation from God which is not a matter of design but a matter of STATE or CONDITION without God. God's design of free will necessarily gave permission for the wrong decision which by definition is contrary to the revealed will of God which is by nature based upon His own righteousness and thus not a matter of design but a matter of NATURE that is immutable.

God certainly designed hell and gehenna as PLACES for evil beings.

So, Go PERMITTED man to become totally unable to willingly respond to His own revelation? Is that an accurate summary?

 

[The Biblicist]

So, Go PERMITTED man to become totally unable to willingly respond to His own revelation? Is that an accurate summary?

Lol! No, that is not an accurate summary. That is a summary of wishful thinking on your part.

God permitted sin by an accountable representative of the human race. Sin inherently contains it own consequences that need not design but are natural consequences of what sin is by nature. His revelation is not given to sinners in general but to His elect in specific.

 

[BobRyan]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

God did not will the results of sin - He allows it. But at the same time He supernaturally intervenes on behalf of all mankind by placing enmity between the see of the serpent and the see of the woman (Gen 3) by "Drawing all mankind to Him" John 12:32, by "Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" and thus "enabling all" to choose.

Other options would have been to obliterate mankind at the fall.

Or to zap the brains of Adam and Eve (if mind-zapping were part of the plan) before they ever ate the forbidden fruit causing them to "only obey". Since they were already sinless that would have been to some degree "consistent" with their sinless nature.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

1) The Fall did not result in the total loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation. Jesus had to speak in parables to preclude some of the fallen from responding and being healed.

I agree.

2) Whatever the consequence of the Fall, it is God who imposes it and thus chose to impose it. Otherwise the consequence of sin would be more powerful than God. That dog will not hunt.

Again, I agree.

But there is one thing about Depravity that just does not make sense to me. If God hates sin, and there certainly is a lot of scripture where God declares he hates sin, then why did God curse man to be a sinner?

Now, I am a simple guy, but that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We lock up criminals to prevent them from committing more crime. It seems to me, if God sincerely hated sin, then he would take away man's free will to do evil, not his free will to do good.

Why would God take away man's free will to do good if he hates evil?

Does that make sense? Is that logical?

 

[convicted1]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

There are just some things hard to truly grasp. However, He did place the tree of knowledge in the Garden with them. But He did not force, coerce, urge, push, shove them into eating of it either.

 

[convicted1]

Good question, you tell me. Did God decide that all men would be born totally depraved as a result of the fall, or was that beyond his control?

Nope. Blame that on Adam...

 

[Winman]

Nope. Blame that on Adam...

Where did God curse all of Adam's descendants so that they would be born sinners? I've looked high and low in my Bible and can't seem to find those verses.

Maybe you can help me out.

 

[convicted1]

Where did God curse all of Adam's descendants so that they would be born sinners? I've looked high and low in my Bible and can't seem to find those verses.

Maybe you can help me out.

In Genesis 5, Seth was made in the image of Adam. Adam was the image and likeness of God, but Seth was born after the fall, and Adam marred that image.

 

[Winman]

In Genesis 5, Seth was made in the image of Adam. Adam was the image and likeness of God, but Seth was born after the fall, and Adam marred that image.

That doesn't say all men were made sinners because of Adam. It doesn't say one thing about sin in that verse.

And what about Cain and Abel, whose image were they made in?

 

[convicted1]

That doesn't say all men were made sinners because of Adam. It doesn't say one thing about sin in that verse.

And what about Cain and Abel, whose image were they made in?

They also, were made in the image of Adam, post fall...

 

[Winman]

They also, were made in the image of Adam, post fall...

And James said men are made in the similitude or likeness of God didn't he?

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Note, that James said "are" which is present tense.

In fact, James is pointing out that it is sin to speak evil of men who are made in the similitude of God.

What do you think of that?

 

[convicted1]

And James said men are made in the similitude or likeness of God didn't he?

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Note, that James said "are" which is present tense.

In fact, James is pointing out that it is sin to speak evil of men who are made in the similitude of God.

What do you think of that?

Yes, we're made in the image of God through Adam. However, Adam marred that image...

 

[Winman]

Yes, we're made in the image of God through Adam. However, Adam marred that image...

No, no, no, James said men "are" made after the similitude of God. That is present tense, he was speaking of the moment, not creation.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

And here is a question I know you know the answer to, where do we get our spirit, from our parents, or God?

I know you know...

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Do you believe God gives men evil spirits Willis??