Is God in CONTROL of the consequences of the Fall?

[Luke2427]

Who, if not God, decided that the consequence of the Fall would result in the loss of man's ability to willingly respond to God's revelation?

Was this the only option available to God, in that He could not help that the result of sin would leave all men totally depraved to the point of being unable to willingly believe or repent even when asked to do so by God Himself?

Or was this God's determination, plain and simple?

I ask this because Calvinists take different sides of this issue and I'd like to hear arguments for both sides.

Why not both?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I dont want to take this off the tracks but I need to understand something (you can answer via PM).......Do Arminians believe in Election & Predestination..... and then the kicker question..... What type of predestination?

See most Old School Baptists (who hold to DoG) do NOT believe in an "Absolute Predestination" ..... Rather a biblical one that addressed Election only.

 

[Iconoclast]

Good question, you tell me. Did God decide that all men would be born totally depraved as a result of the fall, or was that beyond his control?

The clear warning......dying though shalt surely die was given.Looks like God meant it.

If I clearly warn you if you put your hand in a furnace it will be burned to a crisp.....you do it and get burned to a crisp....do you blame me?
The fire? The maker of the furnace?......or yourself?

 

[Benjamin]

....................

 

[Benjamin]

If I clearly warn you if you put your hand in a furnace it will be burned to a crisp.....you do it and get burned to a crisp....do you blame me?
The fire? The maker of the furnace?......or yourself?

Depends, ...did you put ear plugs in the person so he couldn't hear the warning first?

 

[Winman]

The clear warning......dying though shalt surely die was given.Looks like God meant it.

If I clearly warn you if you put your hand in a furnace it will be burned to a crisp.....you do it and get burned to a crisp....do you blame me?
The fire? The maker of the furnace?......or yourself?

If God ordained that I put my hand in the furnace before I was ever born I certainly would blame him.

If God ordained that I sin, then why am I condemned for doing the very thing he ordained me to do? That is being condemned for obedience. And that is making obedience a sin. That is not logical or make sense at all.

Things are strange in the Bizarro World of Calvinism.

 

[The Biblicist]

Depends, ...did you put ear plugs in the person so he couldn't hear the warning first?

Nobody believes God forced Adam to sin or that Adam lacked ability to choose right. Inability is the result of the fall not the precursor to the fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

If God ordained that I put my hand in the furnace before I was ever born I certainly would blame him.

That was not the example given was it?

If God ordained that I sin,

You would not know what God ordained would you?

If God ordained you would post foolishly and in rebellion to His word, you would not know that either ,but we would see foolish posting by you everyday and we would understand that this was the case indeed....come to think of it:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

Winman

That was not the example given was it?

No, you were careful not to mention that you believe everything we do was ordained by God before we were ever born and that we MUST perform these actions.

It's called "the elephant in the room". Nobody mentions it, but you can't help but keep bumping into it.

You would not know what God ordained would you?

And you do? Wow, aren't we privileged to be privy to the inside "secret" stuff. How did you pull that off?

If God ordained you would post foolishly and in rebellion to His word, you would not know that either, but we would see foolish posting by you everyday and we would understand that this was the case indeed....come to think of it :laugh::laugh:

"We"?? Oh, you mean "the elect". There we go again, not bragging about being elect again.

It's a good thing being elect never goes to your head. :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

Nobody believes God forced Adam to sin or that Adam lacked ability to choose right. Inability is the result of the fall not the precursor to the fall.

Actually some determinists do believe God determined Adam's choice to sin in the same manner he determined your choice to come to Christ...in the same 'compatibilistic manner' (i.e. acting in accordance with ones desire, yet that desire is determine ultimately by God who creates/controls the nature).

And, unless you maintain that God is not sovereignly in control over the results of the fall, then He ultimately is the one who put the ear plugs in their ears of all who came after the fall.

 

[The Biblicist]

Actually some determinists do believe God determined Adam's choice to sin in the same manner he determined your choice to come to Christ...in the same 'compatibilistic manner' (i.e. acting in accordance with ones desire, yet that desire is determine ultimately by God who creates/controls the nature).

My mistake, I was referring to those involved in this discussion on this thread. I should have said "nobody in this discussion." I am well aware that there are some who claim God is the author of sin.

And, unless you maintain that God is not sovereignly in control over the results of the fall, then He ultimately is the one who put the ear plugs in their ears of all who came after the fall.

You have yet to respond to the reasons I have offered to prove this line of reasoning is false. God did not design His righteous nature because God IS righteous. God did not design light because He IS light. God did not design LIFE because He IS life. Unrighteousness IS the absence of righteousness and darkness IS the absence of light and death IS the absence of life. God cannot design another God equal to Himself and therefore by necessity all beings created are DEPENDENT upon union with God for life.

God did not design sin but did give permission for the entrance of sin by designing free responsible choice in Adam. Sin is the necessary consequence of choosing contrary to God's revealed will.

 

[Skandelon]

You have yet to respond to the reasons I have offered to prove this line of reasoning is false. God did not design His righteous nature because God IS righteous. God did not design light because He IS light. God did not design LIFE because He IS life. Unrighteousness IS the absence of righteousness and darkness IS the absence of light and death IS the absence of life. God cannot design another God equal to Himself and therefore by necessity all beings created are DEPENDENT upon union with God for life.

God did not design sin but did give permission for the entrance of sin by designing free responsible choice in Adam. Sin is the necessary consequence of choosing contrary to God's revealed will.

I did respond to your line of reasoning. You are equating sin with the consequences of sin, as if God has no control over whether or not mankind is enabled to respond to His revelation or not. Even if I were to except that the natural essence of sin is total inability to willingly respond, that doesn't negate the power of God to overcome that inability. You validate it is possible for God to effectually regenerate a man thus determining the response, but for some reason will not even acknowledge the possibility of God enabling a free response (similar to the one Adam made originally).

 

[The Biblicist]

I did respond to your line of reasoning.

Please provide the Post# where you ever responded to that argument concerning light, righteousness, life and the dependency of all created beings on God? I have never read any such response. If I missed it, I am sure you can point to the post???

You are equating sin with the consequences of sin, as if God has no control over whether or not mankind is enabled to respond to His revelation or not.

You are evading my response. I stated that the absence of life is death (which is inclusive of all of its meaning; spiritual, physical, eternal separation from God) while sin is merely the mechanism that breaks dependency upon/union with God who IS life.

 

[OldRegular]

Is God not in control of anything?

God is Sovereign over His Creation!