Is God Patient With His Decree?

[Silverhair]

It's inevitable, but not on a concrete time schedule.

So your saying that God does not know all that He has ordained. That does not sound very logical.

And if it is not on a "concrete" schedule then how can God know the time or the day of His return and He may come back prior to all those "elect" actually being given faith.

It seems you just make these things up so you can stick to your deterministic philosophy.

 

[Reynolds]

So your saying that God does not know all that He has ordained. That does not sound very logical.

And if it is not on a "concrete" schedule then how can God know the time or the day of His return and He may come back prior to all those "elect" actually being given faith.

It seems you just make these things up so you can stick to your deterministic philosophy.

God knows everything He has ordained.
His elect will come to Him.

 

[Zaatar71]

So if the evil acts are ordained to happen is there any way that they could not happen? Not under your theological view. So since God has "ordained" the evil He becomes responsible for the evil.

God is never responsible for the sin of men or angels. Have you read the early chapters of the book of Job? it was not God who forced Satan , or the Sabeans and Chaldeans to sin;

15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
It was ordained to happen, yet the sinners were responsible for their own sin. Why would you conclude that God could even be mentioned as a cause of sin? This kind of thinking might keep truth away from you.

That is the problem with the C/R view, they never think through what they say.

I think a mirror would help you with your statement here, lol

 

[Ben1445]

God is never responsible for the sin of men or angels. Have you read the early chapters of the book of Job? it was not God who forced Satan , or the Sabeans and Chaldeans to sin;

15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
It was ordained to happen, yet the sinners were responsible for their own sin. Why would you conclude that God could even be mentioned as a cause of sin? This kind of thinking might keep truth away from you.



I think a mirror would help you with your statement here, lol

To borrow the logic, if God does not want something to happen, it won’t. Who could resist God and do it anyway? So any thing that happens must be ordained by God. So when Satan fell, according to your logic, God willed him to fall. What purpose does that serve?
This is where your argument for evil falls apart. God must will it. It comes to pass.
Romans 3:8 Paul refused to accept that he taught what you are teaching.
“(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come?”
God does not will evil that good may come. No one is disagreeing that God will accomplish what He wills.
You have decided, wresting Scripture, that God made men who have no opportunity to be saved and that God has made it so they cannot be saved.
I can agree with you only as far as God knows who will reject Him. In order for God to be just, man must be able to avail himself of the gospel that was commanded to be preached to him.

 

[Silverhair]

God knows everything He has ordained.
His elect will come to Him.

Christ is the elect one and we are only elect when we are in Him through freely trusting in Him.

Your theology is based on what some man or group of men, starting with Augustine, decided what the bible means.

Of course God knows all that He has ordained the problem for the C/R is that they think they know what He has ordained so they have come up with all those false ideas that are not biblical.

 

[Reynolds]

Christ is the elect one and we are only elect when we are in Him through freely trusting in Him.

Your theology is based on what some man or group of men, starting with Augustine, decided what the bible means.

Of course God knows all that He has ordained the problem for the C/R is that they think they know what He has ordained so they have come up with all those false ideas that are not biblical.

Your theology is based on what some man or group of men, starting with Jacobius Arminias, decided what the bible means.

Of course God knows all that He has ordained the problem for the non Calvinist is that they think man is saved by works through a synergistic salvation process so they have come up with all those false ideas that are not biblical.

 

[Silverhair]

God is never responsible for the sin of men or angels. Have you read the early chapters of the book of Job? it was not God who forced Satan , or the Sabeans and Chaldeans to sin;

You obviously miss read what I said or you just have a comprehension problem.

The biblical view is that man is responsible for the sin he commits. The C/R problem is that there philosophy makes God the author of sin.

You do not even seem to understand your own words

"What can come to pass, if it was not ordained to come to pass? In other words, how can something happen that was not ordained to happen?
Even the sinful acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass."

I think a mirror would help you with your statement here, lol

The fact you do not even see the problem your view presents is clear evidence that you have not thought your view through.

It really is sad to see so many C/R followers that can not think logically.

 

[Zaatar71]

To borrow the logic, if God does not want something to happen, it won’t. Who could resist God and do it anyway? So any thing that happens must be ordained by God. So when Satan fell, according to your logic, God willed him to fall. What purpose does that serve?
This is where your argument for evil falls apart. God must will it. It comes to pass.
Romans 3:8 Paul refused to accept that he taught what you are teaching.
“(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come?”
God does not will evil that good may come. No one is disagreeing that God will accomplish what He wills.
You have decided, wresting Scripture, that God made men who have no opportunity to be saved and that God has made it so they cannot be saved.
I can agree with you only as far as God knows who will reject Him. In order for God to be just, man must be able to avail himself of the gospel that was commanded to be preached to him.

So in your view , evil takes place apart from Gpd ordaining it to happen? Is that what happened here?
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Zaatar71]

You obviously miss read what I said or you just have a comprehension problem.

The biblical view is that man is responsible for the sin he commits. The C/R problem is that there philosophy makes God the author of sin.

You do not even seem to understand your own words

"What can come to pass, if it was not ordained to come to pass? In other words, how can something happen that was not ordained to happen?
Even the sinful acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass."


The fact you do not even see the problem your view presents is clear evidence that you have not thought your view through.

It really is sad to see so many C/R followers that can not think logically.

Well help me with the early part of Job! What happened and how did it happen? I thought I had thought about it but maybe you see something in scripture that I have missed?

 

[Silverhair]

Your theology is based on what some man or group of men, starting with Jacobius Arminias, decided what the bible means.

Of course God knows all that He has ordained the problem for the non Calvinist is that they think man is saved by works through a synergistic salvation process so they have come up with all those false ideas that are not biblical.

My theology is based on scripture not some pagan philosophy dragged into the church by Augustine.

Well since man is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus we can hear and believe the gospel message via our free will. For some strange reason those of the C/R view have a hard time trusting scripture no matter how many times it is pointed out to them.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Now I know you will disagree or say those support your view but you will be wrong in both cases.

I grew up trusting in the bible as the word of God. I did not need some man to tell me what God said in His word. The C/R's tend to treat God's word as a mystery that only the enlightened few can understand.

And that is just what the Gnostic's say.

 

[Silverhair]

Well help me with the early part of Job! What happened and how did it happen? I thought I had thought about it but maybe you see something in scripture that I have missed?

Care to be a bit more specific with your request?

 

[Zaatar71]

Care to be a bit more specific with your request?

What was the sequence of events? what was the reason the Sabeans, and Chaldeans came against Job? who was the cause of this?

 

[Ben1445]

So in your view , evil takes place apart from Gpd ordaining it to happen? Is that what happened here?
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This is God orchestrating salvation. This is not sin.
That is like saying because I was in a bad neighborhood, I caused someone to rob me.
God says He knows what is in man. He never says He put it there.

 

[Silverhair]

What was the sequence of events? what was the reason the Sabeans, and Chaldeans came against Job? who was the cause of this?

Directly Satan but indirectly God as he allowed Satan to test Job.

That is what the bible says and I have no problem with it. God can allow us to be tested but will also give us the grace with which we through continued faith can over come the trial.

Where you run into problems is that you have God ordain all things not just some things, see your LBCF Chap 3. So when Satan tested Job all those test were ordained by God according to your philosophy.

When anyone sins in the C/R view it was ordained by God so your philosophy, not the bible, makes God the ultimate sinner.

 

[Zaatar71]

This is God orchestrating salvation. This is not sin.

[The evil men who killed Jesus did not sin?]

That is like saying because I was in a bad neighborhood, I caused someone to rob me.
God says He knows what is in man. He never says He put it there.

[What is the language about the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God mean?]

 

[Reynolds]

My theology is based on scripture not some pagan philosophy dragged into the church by Augustine.

Well since man is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus we can hear and believe the gospel message via our free will. For some strange reason those of the C/R view have a hard time trusting scripture no matter how many times it is pointed out to them.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Now I know you will disagree or say those support your view but you will be wrong in both cases.

I grew up trusting in the bible as the word of God. I did not need some man to tell me what God said in His word. The C/R's tend to treat God's word as a mystery that only the enlightened few can understand.

And that is just what the Gnostic's say.

All those scriptures do indeed support reformed theology.

 

[Zaatar71]

[/QUOTE]

This is God orchestrating salvation. This is not sin.
That is like saying because I was in a bad neighborhood, I caused someone to rob me.
God says He knows what is in man. He never says He put it there.

So when Jesus was killed by evil men, it was not sin?

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus putting himself with sinners is not sin. Being where He will be crucified is not forcing anyone to crucify Him. He never told anyone to crucify Him.
The determinate counsel is that Jesus gave himself to pay the sin debt of every creature. This is what God wills.
Foreknowledge is exactly what it says. God knows what is going to happen before it does.
In your position God forced the crucifixion to happen thereby enacting what is called a wicked act in that very text.
The nonsense of this position is utterly ridiculous since the one thing God would not have to force a totally depraved mankind to do is to crucify the Jesus.
The fact that God knows who will do it and how he prepared the circumstances (Rome in power, crucifixion as the common death penalty, etc.) has nothing to do with the personal responsibility of each person involved.

 

[Ben1445]

So when Jesus was killed by evil men, it was not sin?
[/QUOTE]
It is not God making anyone sin. That would make God an accomplice and a sinner.
The wicked men were the sinners and don’t need to be ordained to sin.

 

[Baptizo]

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

All that is said in the text is that God determined that the Son be crucified and it was foreknown to happen by wicked people. It is a massive jump to conclusions to say that God specifically created these individuals to do nothing other than to drive the nails into Jesus.

To bring it back around to the point of the OP, God had been longsuffering with them, they chose to remain vessels of wrath and so He allowed them to carry out their evil deeds for His eternal glory.

By the way, Peter tells the Jews who delivered Jesus to Pilate to repent and be baptized for forgiveness. God continued to be longsuffering even after all that.