What do calvinists say on the verse that differs from you?
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Is God Patient With His Decree?
- Thread starter Baptizo
- Start date
His longsuffering and patience is tied into His own chosen people, as He is willing to put with a great deal with them in order to make sure they will become His people and be the sheep of the great Shephard of their souls
This is said very well, as would explain why when even saved misunderstanding this principle, will start to read into bible doctrines such as God not being all knowing
God is sovereign over all of His creation, and nothing happens without Him knowing of it beforehand, but some God direct determines to happen, while other he permits and allows to happen.
And indeed, His patience involves all of His own coming to a Covenant relationship back with Him now
We see it as referring to the selected individuals chosen by the Father to be now included in Christ, while others see it as meaning all humanity period
BINGO!
When you say nothing happens without Him knowing of it, do you mean things happen that he is only an onlooker, and has no control of those things? Does God use the acts of sinners for His own purpose? When you say, he knows about them, do things happen that God has not determined to happen by the hands of the wicked?
God does not directly determine and direct cause all that happens, as that would be fatalism, but nothing ever happens that He was not already aware of, and He can choose to step in directly at any time
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The passage from Roman’s 9 says…
1. God created two types of vessels… vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and vessels of mercy.
Can we agree on that?
2. The two vessels have specific purpose… the vessels of wrath are dealt with by God with “longsuffering” (patience) for the purpose of demonstrating God’s glory toward His vessels of mercy.
Can we agree on that?
Your question is a challenge the these scriptural truths… that God created vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and dealt with them in a longsuffering manner.
You seem to be claiming that since God was “longsuffering” or “patient” with these folks, He must not of decreed they were created for destruction, even though that is exactly what the passage says.
If that is your point, then I would point you back to the passage where the question is asked, “why does He still find fault.. who can resist His will?”
You will find your answer in that passage.
Peace to you
The passage says He is only long-suffering to the vessels of wrath because somehow being long-suffering with them makes known the riches of His mercy in His chosen vessels.
All is the elect. If God willed every human to be saved, every human would be saved.
Is he just aware of the things, or does He use the things done by others, here is what I am asking you;
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
I Think you have made this very clear on this post
You do know that the Wilderness of Sin is a geographic location referring to the Wilderness of Sinai, right?
Exodus Chapter 16
Exodus Chapter 17
Numbers Chapter 33
K. What's your point?
1 | And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. |
Exodus Chapter 17
1 | And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, by their journeys, according to the commandment of Jehovah, and encamped in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. |
Numbers Chapter 33
11 | And they journeyed from the Red Sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin. |
K. What's your point?
I was actually trying to figure out what your point was.
I will believe “all” means only the elect when someone can convince me that Romans 3:23 means For only all the elect have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Baptizo
Active Member
I have no problem with what the text says. Where we may disagree is the Calvinist's interpretation that the vessels of wrath and mercy were prepared before the they were born.
I wouldn't agree with the Calvinist's interpretation that "longsuffering" is just a figure of speech. God is perfectly capable of demonstrating his glory to the vessels of mercy while having patience with the vessels of wrath, that they may too become vessels of mercy.
I find no fault in God deciding to elect one nation over another, to bring about spiritual blessings and the coming of the Messiah.
Baptizo
Active Member
Except that the vessels of mercy were at one time vessels of wrath and God was patient with them.
Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The 'Exodus Motif' in the Bible is pregnant with types. House of Bondage, Passover Lamb, Plagues, the Land of Milk and Honey, the 'good news' that the land is their's for the taking, their rejecting of that good news, the wandering in the wilderness, to name a few.
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